New 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid: Cost vs Savings

[chroot]

Its very easy to figure it out mathematically. 15 minutes to go 15 miles in a car, go figure. Unless I am actually lance armstrong in disguise and don't mind showing up for a lecture drenched in sweat, it isn't happening.

How often do you go 60 miles an hour? As I've said repeatedly -- over and over and over again in this thread -- the majority of American car trips are (1) under two miles (2) have one occupant (3) have no cargo and (4) do not involve freeways. These are the trips I am suggesting should be done on bicycles instead. Not trips to LA down Interstate 5.

Look at the central valley... what the hell is a traffic jam? I mean its probably better in rush hour trying to get downtown here and maybe if you're in about 3 miles of your office, its worth using a bike. Otherwise its a joke of a race. I can understand how you could develop such a narrow view on things living in hte bay area but come to a place like Fresno and you wouldn't use your bike that much. I can believe "most trips" are taken within 2 miles because look at big cities! Everythings compact and built ontop of itself. But look at about 99.999% of america. Not big cities.

The majority of Americans now commute suburb-to-suburb. The average commute distance continues to rise, but it's still well within the range of a bicycle.

Besides, you're the one who wanted to race me. I don't ride a bicycle because it's faster -- on most trips, I admit, it's not. I ride a bicycle because (1) it saves money (2) it saves natural resources (3) it's fun and (4) I refuse to be a lardass like 70% of the people in the country.

- Warren

 

[Pengwuino]

We have built cities and moved to the suburbs and adopted a car-based lifestyle to such an extent that the grocery store is now too far away to get to by any other means than car.

We live in the environment we do because we drive cars.

But we don't have to. We can make choices.

So all cities should be made in such a way that there's 15,000 people per square mile? You can have it.

 

[Pengwuino]

The majority of Americans now commute suburb-to-suburb. The average commute distance continues to rise, but it's still well within the range of a bicycle.

Besides, you're the one who wanted to race me. I don't ride a bicycle because it's faster -- on most trips, I admit, it's not. I ride a bicycle because (1) it saves money (2) it saves natural resources (3) it's fun and (4) I refuse to be a lardass like 70% of the people in the country.

- Warren

Your whole argument has been based on the idea that we should do it because its "faster". What are you trying to pull here?

 

[chroot]

Don't be immature and don't assume everything would be done with little inconvenience since I am sure you rarely do a lot of the things necessary to maintain a real family in anything other then NY or LA. Your argument has basically been "I know everything about other peoples lives and any other argument is wrong because everyone else is brainwashed by their culture". This is ridiculous.

No. That's not my argument at all, kid.

Here, let me repeat it AGAIN:

The majority of American car trips are (1) under two miles (2) have one occupant (3) have no cargo and (4) do not involve freeways. These are the trips I am suggesting should be done on bicycles instead. Using a bicycle for such trips would have a far, far greater impact on both the American wallet, waistline and envrionment than buying an expensive hybrid car and using it for the same trips.

- Warren

 

[Pengwuino]

Well I am surprised you have resorted to insults and changing your argument mid-stream. I am done wasting my time.

 

[chroot]

Your whole argument has been based on the idea that we should do it because its "faster". What are you trying to pull here?

For the kind of trips I advocate using a bicycle (under two miles, on surface streets), a bicycle actually often is faster than a car. I am not making the blanket stament that "bicycling is faster than driving a car," because that would be stupid. Please stop trying to derail me by putting (ridiculous) words in my mouth.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

Well I am surprised you have resorted to insults and changing your argument mid-stream. I am done wasting my time.

I didn't change my argument. Please read post #3, and note that my argument has not changed since. Is this really your best attempt at having a debate?

- Warren

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Listen, the OP was talking about buying a hybrid vehicle to save gas and money.

Did anyone here read the OP's post? The OP bought the car because it is way cool. The OP questioned whether any GAS will be saved when looking at the entire life of the car. The OP questioned whether he will himself save any MONEY.

The funny part is that at the ripe old age of 49, the OP bought his first car. I worked 4 miles from my home and rode a bicycle in all weather. I've switched jobs and now that ride is 35 miles. So the personal auto has come to feed and clothe my family.

 

[chroot]

The funny part is that at the ripe old age of 49, the OP bought his first car. I worked 4 miles from my home and rode a bicycle in all weather. I've switched jobs and now that ride is 35 miles. So the personal auto has come to feed and clothe my family.

That is pretty ironic jimmy, but good for you! Unfortunately, the other participants in this thread don't seem to have the good sense to realize that bicycling is a meaningful mode of transportation.

Instead, they'd like to (erroneously) believe that a 90-pound housewife carting 30 lbs of groceries for her family of five is somehow representative of American driving patterns. What a joke!

- Warren

 

[0TheSwerve0]

If I could, I would kayak or swim to get around. I hate running and biking, but I wouldn't mind exerting myself doing something I like. If only we had extensive waterways...

 

[Integral]

Pengwuino,

How many housewives in this country weigh 90 pounds?

...

- Warren

You are right Warren, the question needs to be rephrased:

"Do you really expect your average 300lb housewife to...

"

Penquin,
You are really being obnoxious in your ridiculous straw man arguments. Perhaps you should try reading Warrens posts.

A few years back I lived about 2.5mi from my work, I could ride my bike and be in the building in about the same amount of time or quicker then driving a car. Like Astro' mentioned I could ride right to the door, with car I had to park a half mile away and walk, in addition to fighting traffic through town. I recognize that this was in what may be one of the most bicycle friendly towns in the nation. For short trips, less then 2-5mi a bike is a very good alternative, and there are lots of ways to transport goods on the bike.

Unfortunately I now live about 13 mi from work and the road between here in there is NOT bicycle friendly. By the way it is impossible to make the 12 mi trip in 12 min, Get real, if you are driving in town you will be lucky to average 25mph on ANY trip. The ONLY way to average 60mph is be on the open freeway, that is not the daily commute for most.

I still ride my bike for quick trips to the store, the time difference is negligible but the gas savings and health benefits are not.

 

[Astronuc]

Its very easy to figure it out mathematically. 15 minutes to go 15 miles in a car, go figure. Unless I am actually lance armstrong in disguise and don't mind showing up for a lecture drenched in sweat, it isn't happening.

Now here's an opportunity for an enterpreneur to come up with cycle-through showers. Just ride in and get a quick shower, check the breaks, check the air in the tires. Probably need a stainless steel chain though.


But seriously, as for time to travel between office and home, 6.5 miles. It takes a minimum of 13 minutes if I catch the lights and there is minimal traffic. At peak it, takes more like 17-18 minutes, which is still not bad compared to most urban/suburban areas.

The roads are a mix of bike-unfriendly (almost no shoulder and cars that greatly exceed the speed limit while drivers don't pay attention to what is at the side) and bike-friendly with actual bike paths. A few months back I did see the result of a bike-auto accident where the automobile driver just didn't see the cyclist. Cyclist was lying on the ground (with people attending) waiting for an ambulance to show up, and that was in an area with a 30 mph speed limit.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/article_default_view.fcm?articleid=3219&subsite=1723

 

[Just some guy]

Personally I think this thing is the way to go for short urban trips, assuming you don't mind destroying your self-esteem by driving something that looks more like an invalid carriage than a car

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I think it's time for me to take this thread back from the self-righteous city dwellers that took it over. I would remind you guys that we from the suburbs drive a much shorter distance to hug a tree than you do.

The following calculations are still rough, but they are better than the ones I did before. The HCH is basically an HC with the H added in. I went on the web to find used HC's with features comparable to mine, but nothing was all that close. The cars either had fewer miles on them, or were different configurations (mine is 4-door, the closest in mileage was a 2-door). However, I think it is fair to say that I paid somewhere between $3000 and $3500 more for the HCH than I would have for a comparable HC.

I drive 70 miles round-trip to work 240 days a year, plus relatively heavy usage on weekends for pleasure trips, probably another 2500 miles/year. Add to that the 2.1 mile trips to my aerobics class etc. I would say I go at least 21000 miles per year.

The HCH claims to get 48 mpg, and the HC claims 40. Dividing into 21000 miles/year I get 440 gallons/year for the HCH and 525 gallons/year for the HC. At $3.00/gallon, the cash savings is $255/year. This means it would take from 12 to 14 years to break even. Inflation makes matters even worse.

However, these are 2006 mpg numbers. I don't know what the 2004 claims were. From the web, I got anecdotal evidence that while the 2004 HCH actually achieves 48 mpg in real world situations, the 2004 HC only gets 30. If these numbers are used, I need roughly 4 years to break even.

So if you are thinking of buying a hybrid for money savings, make sure it will actually work. Matters are different for the Toyota Prius because there is no comparable non-hybrid with which to compare and the claim is for 55 mpg. There is a tax-benefit to buying a new hybrid, but not for used.

 

[Astronuc]

I drive 70 miles round-trip to work 240 days a year, plus relatively heavy usage on weekends for pleasure trips, probably another 2500 miles/year.

Ouch! That's 16,800 miles per year. It does make sense to get a hybrid. I wonder how it will do with that kind of driving.

I used to drive 94 miles/day roundtrip (470 mi/wk, or ~22,000 mile/yr since I would travel several weeks). With side trips which amounted to 2500-3000 mile/year, I was putting about 25,000 miles on a car. I started with a Honda Prelude, which ultimately blew a cylinder, and then I have a Volkswagen for about a 1.5 years when the transmission went (I sold that for just about scrap rather than pay $3000-4000 to get a new transmission installed and other thing that need to be done), and then I had a Honda Civic for many years.

I live in a rural area, which is more or less a suburb of a small city, which itself is becoming a suburban area for NY (and Westchester Co.), which is 60 miles away. There are people in my area who commute 1 - 1.5 hrs each way, morning and night.

Fortuately, I changed jobs and no live only 6.5 miles from my office. My round trip time is now a total of 30 min at most, rather than a mininum of 2 hrs at the speed limit (1 h 45 min if I raced without traffic). On the old commute, if there was rain or snow, oneway could be as long as 2-3 hrs, and the worst commute was 4 hrs one night after an avalanche of mud, trees and rocks closed the only main route between my office and home.

People still do that, because like me, they cannot afford to live near their jobs.

Good luck with the hybrid.

 

[scorpa]

Before I moved to the city to go to school I had to drive everywhere, I lived out in the middle of nowhere and the closest town with half decent services as a half an hour drive away so we had to drive. Now that I'm in the city I walk or ride my bike almost everywhere with the exception of getting groceries or when I make the 3.5h trek home. I find riding a bike much more convienent and less stressful than city driving, plus it's fun, and easier on the bank account lol.

Anyway congrats on the new car, I hope you enjoy it.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

It has that neat ipod hookup too right? Is it the radio adapter?

 

[motai]

Another problem with cars in general, besides the points that Chroot brought up earlier, is that they depreciate (dramatically) in value. Considering that most of the time, cars are either parked in garages or in parking lots, it seems like an awful waste of money for something that will only be used for a fraction of the day (unless it is rush hour, in which case it may be hours).

It is much more practical to buy used cars than to go into debt competing with your neighbors massive SUV.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

It has that neat ipod hookup too right? Is it the radio adapter?

I didn't even think about the radio. After work today I'll look into it. However, I doubt it has an ipod hookup because the car I bought is a 2004 model. I did note that the radio has some anti-theft device on it. This is the first car I've owned that has theft appeal. I had the windows etched for what that's worth.

As for the break even point, there is another issue that needs to be addressed. I have slowed my highway speed to 55 mph from 70 mph (32 of my 70 miles/day are on the highway) and I have turned off the air conditioner. I did this because I want to see what kind of mileage I can really get. I'm not saying that everyone who buys a hybrid would do that. I'm not even sure if I will keep it up myself. However, it's unlikely I would have done it at all if it hadn't been for the claims of the manufacturer on mpg. This psychological effect may hasten the break even day.

At each stop for gasoline, I will keep a record of odometer reading, volume of gasoline purchased, and price per gallon.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Another problem with cars in general, besides the points that Chroot brought up earlier, is that they depreciate (dramatically) in value.

A used Toyota Prius costs more than a new one. I believe the reason is that you have to get on a waiting list for a new one. My 2004 HCH cost $2000 less than a new one.

 

[motai]

A used Toyota Prius cost more than a new one. I believe the reason is that you have to get on a waiting list for a new one. My 2004 HCH cost $2000 less than a new one.

Hybrid cars tend to be an exception. But buying any other (pure internal combustion) car will be cheaper in used form than new.

"Drive a new car off the lot and it can lose 20 percent of its value." (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/strategies/articles/77147/article.html )

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/news/column/lowdown/newcar_free/chart.500.jpg

Rather simplified graph, but it should do the trick.

On another note, it seems that hybrids will be car company's ace card, if they are in high enough demand with short supply, they can raise prices as they please.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

On another note, it seems that hybrids will be car company's ace card, if they are in high enough demand with short supply, they can raise prices as they please.

And if they do, you can be sure that consumers will be shaking their fists at Bush about the high price of hybrids. If I see anyone else going 55 on the highway, I'll let you know.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

The 2006 model has http://automobiles.honda.com/models/audio_accessories.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid" :
Honda Music Link (for iPod®)*
Designed specifically for Honda vehicles

* Play music from your Apple iPod through your vehicle's audio system
* Get crisp, digital-quality sound results
* Use the audio system's controls to search for and play music from your iPod
* Use the steering wheel-mounted audio control buttons to search for and play music from your iPod
* The Music Link system charges your iPod battery while it's connected and the vehicle is on
* Honda Music Link kit includes a dealer-installed Music Link cable, a Quick Reference Guide to get you started, and a Honda Music Link CD

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

My method for determining how many mpg I get is inexact. I divide the number of miles traveled between gasoline purchases by the number of gallons purchased. In the long term, this will give good results, but as I have only filled the tank twice, the number I got, 43 mpg, is subject to adjustment later when more data will be available.

This compares with the sticker that said I should get 47 mpg. I came rather close when you note the following:
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4023628

As I had resolved to do, I maintain a speed of 55 mph on the highway. It's easy to do as the car has cruise control. It's somewhat lonely though. Sometimes a tailgater comes along to keep me company, but soon they pass or exit. They seem to be shouting something and by the looks on their faces, it is a message of some urgency. I haven't yet deciphered it. If the Republicans lose seats in Congress, it will partly be because of gas prices. People are complaining that they really can't afford it and have to give up other things because of it. But apparently, driving at 70-75 mph in 65 mph zones is not one of the things they had to give up. Yet.

It is more difficult to maintain 55 mph in 25 mph zones, but I am determined to get the best mileage I can. My attitude is: If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk.

I have not been able to keep my resolve with the air conditioning. I turn it on until the cabin cools down, then I turn it off until I get uncomfortable again. Then I turn it back on.