New study shows Dark Matter isn't needed? Relativty explains it?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a new study suggesting that dark matter may not be necessary to explain galactic dynamics, proposing that general relativity (GR) could account for observed phenomena instead. Participants explore the implications of this study, its validity, and the potential consequences for current astrophysical models.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the validity of the study, noting it has not undergone peer review and suggesting there may be errors in the paper.
  • Others highlight that the study claims to resolve issues with galactic rotation by applying general relativity rather than Newtonian dynamics, which they argue has been inadequately applied in previous analyses.
  • A participant expresses skepticism about the complete absence of dark matter, citing evidence from gravitational lensing and other astrophysical observations that support its existence.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications for galaxy formation if dark matter is dismissed, particularly regarding the time scales required for galaxy development in the current cosmological model.
  • Some participants propose that the nature of gravity itself may not be fully understood, suggesting that intergalactic gravity could behave differently than local gravitational interactions.
  • There is mention of a rebuttal to the study, labeling its model as "unphysical," though the significance of this rebuttal remains uncertain.
  • Participants emphasize the need for mathematically rigorous theories to validate claims, with references to existing models like MOND and the gravitomagnetic effect being tested.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no consensus reached on the validity of the study or the necessity of dark matter. Some support the new approach while others challenge its implications and the robustness of the claims made.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the study's lack of peer review, potential errors in its methodology, and the unresolved nature of the gravitational dynamics being discussed. The debate also touches on the implications for existing cosmological models and the interpretation of observational data.

  • #61
pervect said:
If it turns out to be repulsive, this would explain the finite thickness, but then one wonders why the solution models galactic rotation which requires more (not less) matter.
Hi pervect - is that the rebuttal correction compared to C&T or C&Tcompared to Newtonian?

The C&T solution requires less matter (no DM halo) than the Newtonian.

Garth
 
Last edited:
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  • #62
Chronos said:
My admittedly crude intuition insists a rotating, roughly spherical mass will naturally flatten out into a disc-like structure. Deriving the observed features of galaxies appears almost incomprehensively difficult. I see all kinds of complications - classical physics, turbulence, tidal forces, electromagnetism, backreactions and relativistic corrections. Perhaps dark matter represents an approximation of these combined effects.
Thanks Chronos obviously a detailed model able to explain the spiral arms, the central bulge, the warp in the disk and the contribution of the globular clusters and anything else out there in the form of a DM halo is going to be horribly complicated - not a 'back of the envelope' type of calculation!

However it would be good to get the basic flat rotation profile sorted.

Garth
 
  • #63
Agreed, Garth. Would you concede that even the 'simple' model is anything but simple? I think if we could get that much right, the details would be mostly easier.
 
  • #64
Garth said:
Hi pervect - is that the rebuttal correction compared to C&T or C&Tcompared to Newtonian?
The C&T solution requires less matter (no DM halo) than the Newtonian.
Garth

The article in question is http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508377

They first point out that the second derivative of N with respect to z is undefined at z=0 because the first derivative changes sign. Their argument that the disk must contains a "shell" of matter is based on the Komar integral - this is equivalent to the Komar mass, which is mass defined in terms of a Killing vector (this concept of mass is valid in any static space-times). They take the limit of the Komar integral (which gives the enclosed mass) for a cylinder which approaches zero volume (by shrinking the height 'a' of the cyliner to zero), and find that the resulting limit as the height a->0 is non-zero

I don't know offhand whether non-zero means positive, or negative. I see a minus sign in (20), but it's easy to lose track of signs.

BTW the concept of Komar mass is the one found on pg 298 of Wald - I've posted about it before, but never under that name - I didn't realize it had a name until just now (it's handy to know it's name).
 
  • #65
Thank you, yes I have read the rebuttal paper, its good to have it explained so clearly.

Garth
 
  • #66
Interesting sidenote. The speaker at my seminar today used this paper as an example of "How not to do GR." :biggrin:
 
  • #67
Concur - what is needed is an equivalent to the Kerr metric.

Garth
 

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