No simple map between classical and quantum

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the statement from Sean Carroll's book regarding the relationship between classical and quantum theories, specifically the lack of a simple mapping between them. Participants explore examples of classical theories without quantum counterparts, classical theories with multiple quantum versions, and quantum theories lacking classical analogues. The scope includes theoretical considerations and conceptual clarifications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about examples of classical theories with no quantum counterpart, with one suggesting general relativity as a potential example.
  • Others argue that every classical theory has multiple quantum versions due to operator-ordering ambiguity in defining quantum counterparts for classical observables.
  • Spin 1/2 is cited as an example of a quantum theory without a classical analogue.
  • One participant challenges the claim regarding general relativity, asserting it does have a quantum counterpart but is complicated by issues of nonrenormalizability and the need for an ultraviolet completion, possibly through string theory.
  • Participants mention theories with quantization anomalies and the ambiguity of classical theories during quantization as additional considerations.
  • There is a note about theories that incorporate both classical and quantum variables, such as temperature in quantum field theories.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence of classical theories without quantum counterparts, particularly regarding general relativity. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives on the relationship between classical and quantum theories.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of specific examples for some claims, dependence on definitions of classical and quantum theories, and unresolved questions regarding the nature of quantization anomalies.

Lapidus
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In Sean Carroll's GR book I found the following statement:

there is no simple map between classical and quantum theories,
- there are classical theories with no quantum counterpart
- classical theories with multiple quantum versions
- quantum theories without any classical analogue

Could someone give me examples to each of the three cases?

thanks
 
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"classical theories with no quantum counterpart"

I don't know of any example.

"classical theories with multiple quantum versions"

EVERY classical theory has multiple quantum versions, because, given a classical observable F(q,p), you have to decide what its quantum counterpart is, and in general you have an operator-ordering ambiguity.

"quantum theories without any classical analogue"

Spin 1/2.
 
Thanks for answering!

I took the statement from page 380 of the book "Spacetime and geometry" by Sean Carroll.
 
Avodyne said:
"classical theories with no quantum counterpart"

I don't know of any example.

General relativity.
 
General relativity most certainly does have a quantum counterpart. It's relatively (no pun intended!) straightforward to canonically quantize it; the problem is that you end up with a nonrenormalizable quantum field theory with an infinite number of parameters that must be specified. Since both GR and QM are part of nature, it is virtually (no pun intended!) certain that there is some "ultraviolet completion" of canonically quantized GR. It is widely but not universally (no pun intended!) believed among experts that string theory provides such an ultraviolet completion.

So it's hard to believe that this is what Sean Carroll had in mind ...
 
Lapidus said:
- there are classical theories with no quantum counterpart
- classical theories with multiple quantum versions
- quantum theories without any classical analogue
- theories with quantization anomalies (e.g. certain chiral gauge theories)
- most classical theories become ambiguous during quantization due to operator ordering
- ?
 
There are also theories which comprise both classical and quantum variables at the same time. E.g. Temperature is a classical parameter which nevertheless appears in quantum field theories together with quantized field variables.
 

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