Noether and the derivative of the Action

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the Action in physics and its derivatives, particularly in the context of Noether's theorem and conserved quantities. Participants explore the implications of the Action's units and its derivatives with respect to time and spatial coordinates, as well as potential connections to other quantities like electric charge.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the Action has units of Energy·time or Momentum·position, and question whether the derivative of the Action with respect to phase could relate to electric charge.
  • One participant asserts that if the Lagrangian is independent of time, energy is conserved, and if independent of a spatial coordinate, momentum is conserved, suggesting a non-coincidental relationship with Noether's theorem.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the conservation of canonical momentum arises when the Lagrangian does not depend on a specific coordinate, linking this to Noether's theorem.
  • There is a challenge regarding the understanding of the relationship between the derivative of the Action and electric charge, indicating some confusion or differing interpretations among participants.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the connection between the Action and conserved quantities as described by Noether's theorem, but there is disagreement or uncertainty regarding the implications of the derivative of the Action with respect to phase and its relation to electric charge.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the independence of the Lagrangian from certain variables are not fully explored, and the implications of these conditions on conservation laws remain unresolved.

nemuritai
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I know that the Action has units Energy·time or Momentum·position. A second fact is that the derivative of the action with respect to time is Energy and similar with momentum-position, consistent with a units ie. dimensions check.Is it a coincidence that both are Noether conserved quantities? For example will the derivative of the Action with respect to phase be electric charge?
 
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Angular momentum is a conserved quantity, but action is not though the both has same dimension.
 
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:welcome:

nemuritai said:
I know that the Action has units Energy·time or Momentum·position. A second fact is that the derivative of the action with respect to time is Energy and similar with momentum-position, consistent with a units ie. dimensions check. Is it a coincidence that both are Noether conserved quantities?
If the Lagrangian is independent of time then energy is conserved. And, if it is indepenent of a spatial coordinate, then momentum in that direction is conserved. I don't see that as a coincidence.
nemuritai said:
For example will the derivative of the Action with respect to phase be electric charge?
I don't understand this question.
 
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It's of course not a coincidence, because if the Lagrangian doesn't depend on some coordinate ##q## (but only its generalized velocity ##\dot{q}##), then the canonical momentum is conserved for the solutions of the equation of motion, i.e., it is a conserved quantity:
$$p_q=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}} \; \Rightarrow \; \dot{p}_q = \frac{\partial L}{\partial q}=0.$$
This canonical momentum is the generator of a symmetry (Noether's theorem).
 
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