Nonstandard Analysis: Completeness of R via Every Limited Hyperreal

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of completeness in the real numbers (R) as it relates to limited hyperreals. Participants explore the implications of the statement that every limited hyperreal is infinitely close to a real number, particularly in the context of bounded subsets of R and the existence of least upper bounds.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the necessity of completeness for the existence of the least integer k (sn) that serves as an upper bound for a bounded set A, suggesting that starting from an integer greater than the upper bound and counting down could yield such an integer.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on the terminology used in the context of limited hyperreals, proposing that "limited" refers to finite values.
  • A participant identifies the source of their discussion as "Lectures on the Hyperreals" by Robert Goldblatt, noting that "limited" refers to a hyperreal number bounded by two real numbers, contrasting this with the definitions of infinitesimal and unlimited.
  • There is a question about the notation used in a referenced text, specifically regarding the meaning of squares on certain pages.
  • A later reply indicates that the notation is not standardized and emphasizes the need to closely follow the text due to the relatively recent development of the subject.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty about the definitions and implications of limited hyperreals and completeness, indicating that multiple interpretations and understandings exist without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

There is mention of the lack of standard notation in the field, which may contribute to confusion regarding terminology and concepts. The discussion also highlights the dependence on specific texts and their interpretations.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying nonstandard analysis, hyperreal numbers, or the completeness of the real numbers, particularly in the context of advanced mathematical concepts.

poissonspot
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In a book I am currently reading, the statement "every limited hyperreal is infinitely close to a real #" is shown to imply the completeness of R, that is that any subset A of R bounded above has a least upper bound. What the author offers to do is introduce this construction: for each natural n, let sn be the least k in the integers so that k/n is an upper bound of A. Then we are to take an unlimited N and let L, an element of R, be infinitely close to sN/N.

Without completeness I'm not sure why sn necessarily exists, can anyone give me some hints? Is it just because once I know the set is bounded above, I can start with an integer greater than this upper bound multiplied by n and "count down" so to say, checking whether each integer less than the last is an upper bound until I find one that is not?

Thanks,
 
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conscipost said:
In a book I am currently reading, the statement "every limited hyperreal is infinitely close to a real #" is shown to imply the completeness of R, that is that any subset A of R bounded above has a least upper bound. What the author offers to do is introduce this construction: for each natural n, let sn be the least k in the integers so that k/n is an upper bound of A. Then we are to take an unlimited N and let L, an element of R, be infinitely close to sN/N.

Without completeness I'm not sure why sn necessarily exists, can anyone give me some hints? Is it just because once I know the set is bounded above, I can start with an integer greater than this upper bound multiplied by n and "count down" so to say, checking whether each integer less than the last is an upper bound until I find one that is not?

I would like to know the name of the text/author.
I assume that by limited hyperreal that author means finite.

If you can find a copy of James Henle's Infinitesimal Calculus, there is a good discussion on this problem on page 114. Although Henle does not use limited hyperreal much of that discussion it does use many of the same ideas.
 
Plato said:
I would like to know the name of the text/author.
I assume that by limited hyperreal that author means finite.

If you can find a copy of James Henle's Infinitesimal Calculus, there is a good discussion on this problem on page 114. Although Henle does not use limited hyperreal much of that discussion it does use many of the same ideas.

I'm sorry, I'm new to the topic and didn't think about the possibility of different terms. The book is titled Lectures on the Hyperreals by Robert Goldblatt; this bit is on page 56. Comparing to Henle, limited is actually not finite but rather a # that is bound by two real numbers. infinite is not defined in Goldblatt, and rather infinitesimal and unlimited are used, infinitesimal meaning that the absolute value of the # is less than any positive real #, and unlimited to mean that the abs. is greater that any pos. real #.

One question, do the squares denote anything on page 114-115, or are these just formatting?

Thanks,
 
conscipost said:
One question, do the squares denote anything on page 114-115, or are these just formatting?

$$\boxed{N}$$ is the standard part of $$N$$.

You really have to follow any text very closely.
This subject is relatively new, 1964. So there is absolutely no standard notation.
I do not know of that textbook.
 

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