Number of moles = volume/molar mass?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the number of moles of glucose in a 0.2 ml solution, given its molar mass of 180 g/mol. Participants explore the relationship between volume and moles, the concept of concentration, and the justification for using a specific volume in a chemical reaction involving glucose and phenylhydrazine hydrochloride.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the relationship n = mass/molar mass can be applied directly when dealing with volume instead of mass.
  • There is a discussion about the equivalence of grams and milliliters, with some clarifying that grams are not equal to milliliters, and that concentration is necessary for calculations involving volume.
  • One participant suggests using the formula n = concentration x volume, but others argue that "100%" is not a valid concentration for this purpose.
  • Participants discuss how to justify the use of 0.2 ml of glucose drink in a reaction, considering the ratio of reactants and the calculated number of moles of glucose.
  • There is a calculation presented where one participant determines the amount of glucose in 0.2 ml based on the concentration found in a larger volume, leading to a calculated number of moles.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about whether the calculated ratios of reactants justify the use of the small volume of glucose in the reaction.
  • There is a debate about whether the calculated excess of phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is sufficient to react with the glucose present.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correct approach to calculating moles from volume, the validity of using "100%" as a concentration, or the justification for the amount of glucose used in the reaction. Multiple competing views remain regarding the interpretation of the ratios and the sufficiency of the reactants.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of information on the concentration of the glucose solution and the original wording of the question, which affects the clarity of the discussion. There are also unresolved mathematical steps regarding the calculations of moles and ratios.

Tiptronic
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Question:
0.2ml glucose solution.
Molar mass of glucose = 180 g/mol

How many moles?

If it was a mass in grams it would be easy:

n = mass/molar mass

But what do I do now its a volume?
Can I still use the same relationship, since grams is equivalent to ml isn't it?
If yes, then what does the unit of 'n' become...ml/mol?

Please help. Thanks.
 
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Tiptronic said:
Question:
0.2ml glucose solution.
Molar mass of glucose = 180 g/mol

How many moles?

If it was a mass in grams it would be easy:

n = mass/molar mass

But what do I do now its a volume?
Can I still use the same relationship, since grams is equivalent to ml isn't it?
If yes, then what does the unit of 'n' become...ml/mol?

Please help. Thanks.
Grams are not equal to mL. cm^{3} are equal to mL.

Are you given the concentration (measured as M or mol/L)?
 
Tiptronic said:
Question:
0.2ml glucose solution.
Molar mass of glucose = 180 g/mol

How many moles?
The question is either incomplete or wrong. Please post the COMPLETE question, EXACTLY as it is given to you.

If it was a mass in grams it would be easy:

n = mass/molar mass
Correct.

But what do I do now its a volume?
Can I still use the same relationship, since grams is equivalent to ml isn't it?
No, you can't.

If yes, then what does the unit of 'n' become...ml/mol?
The number of moles only has one unit : "moles". Anything that is dimensionally different from this can not be a unit for the number of moles.
 
Thanks for the quick replies guys.

Glucose + 3 Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride --> Osazone + Phenylamine + Ammonia + Water

These are what I am using in this reaction:

0.2ml of a Lucozade drink (not diluted, so its 100% concentrated as you'd buy it off the shelf)
0.4g Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride
0.6g crystallized sodium acetate
4ml distilled water.

What i need to do is justify the use of 0.2ml of the glucose drink by using the ratio in the equation (1:3) and by working out the no. of moles of Phenylhydrazine Hydrochloride... n = 0.4/142.5 = 2.8 x 10^23

Now I need to work out the number of moles of the Glucose drink.

Any ideas?
 
Last edited:
Just thought of something:

Could i use this:

n = concentration x volume

Though i doubt "100%" is a concentration that can be used in the above relationship?
 
Tiptronic said:
Just thought of something:

Could i use this:

n = concentration x volume

Though i doubt "100%" is a concentration that can be used in the above relationship?
No, 100% is not a concentration (since n = concentration x volume, with n in units of moles and volume in units of L, then concentration must have units of mol/L).
 
So, there is no way I can work out the concentration from the information I have?

So could you tell me how I can justify the use of 0.2ml of the Lucozade Glucose drink?

My head hurts. :(
 
Sorry I am an idiot. http://www.tamscc.org/forum/images/smilies/bang_head.gif

The whole point of this investigation was to find the glucose amount: I did an experiment and found that in one bottle (380ml) there is 47g of glucose.

Thus, if 380ml contained 47g, then 0.2ml would contain: (0.2ml/380ml) x 47g = 0.025g

So now I know this:

0.2ml of 100% concentrated glucose containing 0.025g glucose.
Glucose molar mass = 180 g/mol

So can I now find 'n'?

n = mass/Molar mass
n = 0.025/180
n = 0.000139 mol

Please tell me this works now? And does this get me any closer to justifying why I've used 0.2ml in this Osazone test?

The Glucose is 0.000139 mol and the Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is 0.0028 mol.

According to the equation the ratio is 1:3.

0.0028/0.000139 = 20 so its not as if there is three times as many molecules in the Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride than the glucose...

Help...
 
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Tiptronic said:
Sorry I am an idiot. http://www.tamscc.org/forum/images/smilies/bang_head.gif

The whole point of this investigation was to find the glucose amount: I did an experiment and found that in one bottle (380ml) there is 47g of glucose.

Thus, if 380ml contained 47g, then 0.2ml would contain: (0.2ml/380ml) x 47g = 0.025g

So now I know this:

0.2ml of 100% concentrated glucose containing 0.025g glucose.
Glucose molar mass = 180 g/mol

So can I now find 'n'?

n = mass/Molar mass
n = 0.025/180
n = 0.000139 mol

Please tell me this works now? And does this get me any closer to justifying why I've used 0.2ml in this Osazone test?

Thanks.

Get rid of "100% concentrated glucose"; it is wrong (you have a solution of glucose, meaning dissolved solute [glucose] in a solvent [likely water]).

Assuming your molar mass is exactly 180 g/mol, then I get 1.37E-4 (not 1.39E-4, as you get, although it might not matter much in the end, depending on sig figs).

Based on what you said you needed to do, you can take this amount and determine whether or not it is a reasonable amount of glucose needed in the reaction. If it is, you have justified yourself.
 
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  • #10
Thank you for the reply geoffjb.

Would this be a good explanation?

The Glucose is 0.000139 mol and the Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is 0.0028 mol.

According to the equation the ratio is 1:3.

0.0028/0.000139 = 20 (2sf)

This means that the phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is more than 3 times the amount of glucose (in terms of mols) thus satisfying the ratio of the equation.

Looking at the equation:

Glucose + 3 Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride --> Osazone + Phenylamine + Ammonia + Water

The Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride should be in excess so that all the glucose is turned into the osazone. I have shown that the Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is definitely in excess, satisfying the ratio of the equation, and thus this justifies using a small quantity of glucose drink (0.2ml) for the osazone test.

How does that sound?
 
  • #11
Tiptronic said:
Thank you for the reply geoffjb.

Would this be a good explanation?

The Glucose is 0.000139 mol and the Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is 0.0028 mol.

According to the equation the ratio is 1:3.

0.0028/0.000139 = 20 (2sf)

This means that the phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is more than 3 times the amount of glucose (in terms of mols) thus satisfying the ratio of the equation.

Looking at the equation:

Glucose + 3 Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride --> Osazone + Phenylamine + Ammonia + Water

The Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride should be in excess so that all the glucose is turned into the osazone. I have shown that the Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is definitely in excess, satisfying the ratio of the equation, and thus this justifies using a small quantity of glucose drink (0.2ml) for the osazone test.

How does that sound?

If the theoretical ratio is 1:3 and the actual ratio is 1:20, are you justified in using only 0.2 mL of glucose?

If this is a scientific lab report, don't use "I".
 
  • #12
Firstly, do I not need to multiply the 0.0028 mol by 3, if the equation says that 3 mols reacts with 1 mol of glucose?

If the theoretical ratio is 1:3 and the actual ratio is 1:20, are you justified in using only 0.2 mL of glucose?

So you're saying 0.2ml is too little? Doesnt 1:20 means that the phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is in excess? Then isn't that ok, since there is enough to react with all of the glucose? I don't quite understand.
 
  • #13
Tiptronic said:
Firstly, do I not need to multiply the 0.0028 mol by 3, if the equation says that 3 mols reacts with 1 mol of glucose?
Based on your equation, three moles of phenylhydrazine hydrochloride are required to react with one mole of glucose. Your multiplication factors must account for this.

Tiptronic said:
So you're saying 0.2ml is too little? Doesnt 1:20 means that the phenylhydrazine hydrochloride is in excess? Then isn't that ok, since there is enough to react with all of the glucose? I don't quite understand.
You're right; it's definitely enough to react with all the glucose. However, since I don't know the original wording of the question, I don't know if such excess is "justified", as you were initially asking. Only you can determine this.
 
  • #14
geoffjb said:
Based on your equation, three moles of phenylhydrazine hydrochloride are required to react with one mole of glucose. Your multiplication factors must account for this.

Sorry, I didnt understand. So do I multiply the 0.0028 mol of Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride by 3, and then form a ratio from that?

You're right; it's definitely enough to react with all the glucose. However, since I don't know the original wording of the question, I don't know if such excess is "justified", as you were initially asking. Only you can determine this.

Its part of my write-up of my investigation. So I am ok in saying that such a small amount is justified, as the Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride should be in excess anyway for best results of this Osazone test?
 
  • #15
Tiptronic said:
Sorry, I didnt understand. So do I multiply the 0.0028 mol of Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride by 3, and then form a ratio from that?
Yes, in determining limiting reagents, you use a multiplication factor.

Tiptronic said:
Its part of my write-up of my investigation. So I am ok in saying that such a small amount is justified, as the Phenylhydrazine hydrochloride should be in excess anyway for best results of this Osazone test?
Okay.
 
  • #16
Thanks for that, really appreciate it.

Btw, you wouldn't happen to know of any websites with information on the osazone, why its solid at room temperature and why it precipitates out? I've looked a lot but to no avail.

Thanks.
 
  • #17
Tiptronic said:
Thanks for that, really appreciate it.

Btw, you wouldn't happen to know of any websites with information on the osazone, why its solid at room temperature and why it precipitates out? I've looked a lot but to no avail.

Thanks.
The physical state of osazone at room temperature would be dependent on the intermolecular forces between the molecules.

It would precipitate out simply because it is insoluble in the solvent. Remember that "like dissolves like".

More information on either question requires more in-depth analysis of the molecular structure of osazone.

http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/jcesoft/cca/cca5/MAIN/1ORGANIC/ORG18/TRAM18/C/THUMBS.HTM might help.
 
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  • #18
Thanks again. I hope I haven't taken up too much of your time.
 
  • #19
Tiptronic said:
Thanks again. I hope I haven't taken up too much of your time.
It was my pleasure.
 
  • #20
Hi again. I've stayed up all night and I've nearly lost the will to live.

Is the science of this ok?

The osazone that is precipitated in this reaction is a solid at room temperature. It has a high boiling point due to its structure and the intermolecular forces acting on it. There are a number of reasons for its high boiling point. Firstly, the size of this osazone molecule is quite big (its molecular mass is 358 gmol-1), which means that it has more electrons and more nuclei that create more Van der Waals forces. Molecular shape is another factor – molecules linear in shape have higher boiling points than their isomers with spherical shapes because the former has a greater contact surface area and thus relatively greater Van der Waals attractive forces.

This osazone is not soluble in water, because “like dissolves like”, and since water is a polar solvent and osazone is a non-polar molecule, the osazone will stay as a precipitate.

Can i add any more? This osazone is not polar is it - so it can't have permanant dipoles? And it doesn't do hydrogen bonding does it?

http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/jcesoft/cca/cca5/GRAPHTRAM/TRAM18/18C.GIF

Thanks once again.
 
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