Number of photons in an arbitrary EM field

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    Em Field Photons
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the number of photons in an arbitrary electromagnetic (EM) field, including coherent states, thermal states, and virtual photons. Participants explore the relationship between classical solutions to Maxwell's equations and quantum mechanical descriptions of photon number, as well as the implications of different types of EM fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if ##\vec E## and ##\vec B## are solutions to Maxwell’s equations, then ##\Psi= \vec E + i \vec B## could be a solution to Schrödinger’s equation, while others challenge this by stating that ##\vec{E}## and ##\vec{B}## are observables and not wave functions.
  • There is uncertainty regarding how to calculate the statistical distribution of the number of photons or the expected number of photons from a given wavefunction.
  • Some participants argue that the type of light (coherent, thermal, squeezed, etc.) is crucial for determining the photon distribution.
  • It is noted that virtual photons cannot be counted, leading to complications in discussing photon numbers in static fields.
  • Participants mention that for EM radiation, one can calculate the mean number of photons by dividing the power radiated by the energy per photon, but this is not exact if the system is not in an eigenstate of photon number.
  • There is a discussion about the Fock state as a state of definite photon number, but it is acknowledged that most light sources do not produce such states.
  • Some participants express a desire for a general operator that could be applied to any arbitrary field to calculate photon numbers, similar to momentum calculations.
  • One participant emphasizes the need to specify the state to calculate a photon-number distribution, particularly for thermal photons described by a canonical ensemble.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on a single method for calculating photon numbers across all types of EM fields. There are competing views on the relationship between classical fields and quantum descriptions, as well as the implications of virtual photons.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in defining photon numbers for different types of EM fields, particularly regarding virtual photons and the necessity of specifying the state for accurate calculations.

  • #31
Vanadium 50 said:
It is an extremely good approximation. (Probably a million or more times better than the approximation a 100W bulb puts out a constant amount of light.)
Thanks, that is really helpful. Do you think the same approximation would be valid for a dipole antenna?
 
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  • #32
Sure. Probably better since the power is higher (usually) and the energy per photon lower.
 
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  • #33
Dale said:
I don’t see him clearly identify the complexified field with the wavefunction. In your opinion, is that implied? I have seen it somewhere, but I don’t remember the source and therefore I could also be misremembering the statement that you could write ##\vec \Psi = \vec E + i \vec B##.
No, not in these slides. There's a nice review here:

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1751-8113/46/5/053001

Dale said:
This actually is about counting photons. I would like to show, e.g. as you take a classical dipole wave and reduce the amplitude to the point that you have a small expected number of photons that it still is a dipole field. I should wind up with a wavefunction that matches the classical dipole fields and gives a very small probability of detecting a photon anywhere, but with no gaps.
There is no wave function, but of course a corresponding state. You get it by calculating the dipole solution for the field operators assuming a classical charge-current distribution. You can just copy the calculation from the classical theory because it's solving linear equations and there's not much formal difference between operator and "c-number"-valued fields. The state is then given by applying the positive-frequency part of the field-operators to the vacuum. The result is a coherent state, and the photon-number probabilities are given by a coherent state. The calculation for this "hemiclassical approximation" is discussed in detail in

C. Itzykson and J.-B. Zuber, Quantum Field Theory,
McGraw-Hill Book Company, New York (1980).

Of course a coherent state can have as low a "intensity" as you like. You can even make the average photon number as small as you want. It's just that in such cases the largest contribution in the decomposition in terms of Fock states is the vacuum contribution. Thus you find with the probabilities of a Poisson Distribution,
$$P(N)=\frac{\lambda}{N!} \exp(-\lambda N)$$
##N## photons.
 
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  • #34
vanhees71 said:
The result is a coherent state, and the photon-number probabilities are given by a coherent state.
Interesting, that explains why @Vanadium 50’s approach above works for many sources.

Many thanks everyone! I found this helpful.
 
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  • #35
I might point out that ##E+iB## is a self dual field combination. Your field combination only describes one of the two possible polarizations. The other equally valid combination is ##E-iB##.

Also, it's my understanding that ##E## and ##B## as operators in QM still obey Maxwell's equations. The natural thing to do would be to view them as such. Then the photon number question is as others have said, an operator expectation based on the given field state which you must first supply.
 
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  • #36
I would suggest looking up some papers about testing of single photon detectors. This is frequently done using heavily attenuated lasers or other coherent sources and in some cases it is done in free space.
Nothing really unusual happens and this is mainly a "classical" calculation, you can estimate the mean number of photons/second by dividing by hf and when that number gets small enough your detector will measure a Poisson distribution; i.e.exactly what you would expect.
 
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