Number of ways to arrange n numbers in k groups

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the number of ways to arrange n numbers into k distinct groups, where the elements of one group are all smaller or larger than those of another group. The conversation explores different interpretations of the problem, including the implications of group distinctness and the conditions under which the arrangements are made.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that the answer to the arrangement problem is \((k!)^{\frac{k}{n}}(\frac{k}{n}!)\) and seeks an intuitive explanation for the power of the first term.
  • Another participant questions the validity of \((\frac{k}{n}!)\) since \(\frac{k}{n}\) is a fraction less than 1, suggesting that the answer may depend on additional specifications not provided.
  • A correction is made regarding the interpretation of \(\frac{k}{n}\), clarifying that it should be \(n/k\), but concerns about the factorial of non-integers remain.
  • One participant suggests that if the groups are not distinct, the correct answer could be represented by a binomial coefficient \(\binom{n-1}{k-1}\), using a "stars and bars" approach to partition the numbers.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the groups are distinct and expresses interest in the number of ways to shuffle them, indicating that if \(n/k\) is an integer, the solution may change.
  • There is a suggestion that if the groups must be of equal size, the solution could be trivial, inviting further clarification on this condition.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the problem, particularly regarding the distinctness of groups and the conditions under which the arrangements are made. No consensus is reached on the correct approach or answer.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential limitations in the problem's specifications, such as the requirement for integer values in factorial calculations and the implications of group size on the solution.

ENgez
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Hello,

I was given a question (not a HW question..) in which i was asked to calculate the number of ways to sort n numbers into k groups, where for any two groups, the elements of one group are all smaller or larger than the elements of the other group.

The answer is supposed to be (k!)^{\frac{k}{n}}(\frac{k}{n}!)

I understand the term (\frac{k}{n}!)

as the it is the number of ways to arrange the groups. What I do not understand is the power of the first term.
Can anyone give me an intuitive answer where it comes from?
 
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What is your understanding of the meaning of ##
(\frac{k}{n}!)
##?

Since ##\frac{k}{n}## will be a fraction less than 1, its factorial is not defined.

The answer I get for this problem is a single combination, which is nothing like the suggested answer. Perhaps there is more detail in the question - additional specifications - that has been omitted.
 
my mistake, every k/n is supposed to be n/k.
 
ENgez said:
my mistake, every k/n is supposed to be n/k.
That doesn't help: x! is still only defined for integers. Furthermore, (k!)n/k is only going to yield an integer for a limited set of (n, k).

Assuming the groupings are not distinct so for instance {{1, 2}, {3, 4}} is identical to {{3, 4}, {1, 2}}, the correct answer is in fact a single binomial coefficient ## \binom {n-1}{k-1} ##

  1. Sort the numbers into ascending order.
  2. The problem can then be represented by partitioning a list of n star symbols into k groups separated by bars e.g. for (n=6, k=3) one solution is * | * * * | * *
  3. Assuming each group must contain at least one number, the number of arrangements for such a "stars and bars" problem can easily be seen to be ## \binom {n-1}{k-1} = \frac{(n-1)!}{(k-1)!(n-k-2)!} ##
 
tnx for the reply, but the groups are distinct, as I am interested in the number of ways to shuffle them around.
you can assume that n/k is an integer.
 
ENgez said:
tnx for the reply, but the groups are distinct, as I am interested in the number of ways to shuffle them around.
Then multiply the answer I gave by the number of ways to shuffle k groups which is simply k!.
ENgez said:
tnx for the reply, but the groups are distinct, as I am interested in the number of ways to shuffle them around.
you can assume that n/k is an integer.
Not necessary, however this makes me wonder whether the groups must be of equal size? If this is the case then the solution is trivial and I invite you to provide it - everything you need is in this thread.
 

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