News Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

[FlexGunship]

To be fair, I only know who Snooki is from the "It's a Jersey Thing" episode of South Park

And I only know Milton Friedman from his pie-eating contest video on YouTube.

That's nice. But doesn't explain Sweden.

Do you mean the doctor shortage in Sweden?

One of the reasons for this is the shortage of health care personnel, caused by a relatively low number of newly examined physicians compared to a relatively high number of physicians retiring. The fact that there is an increased interest among Swedish health care personnel in working abroad, for example in Norway, motivated by better education opportunities, shorter working hours, higher salaries, lower taxes, makes the picture more complete. The shortage of health care personnel results in long queues for patients as well as stress and work overload for health care personnel.

(Source: http://www.immi.se/intercultural/nr8/berbyuk.htm)

In a "welfare state", highly-contributing members of society usually leave for better opportunities. Sweden isn't even really a "welfare state" although it is strongly socialist. Ayn Rand wrote a whole book about the idea... can't remember the name... something about an Atlas rocket, or something. Pretty obscure.

Considering facts, I suppose if you want proof of stuff, just ask. A lot of stuff is just well-known, sometimes has a different interpretation, so it doesn't really make sense to post every little detail. If we disagree, then I suggest you ask.

Bolding is mine. "Common sense" is too frequently wrong. CAC was the one who gave a perfect example of how a "common sense" solution to a problem has damaged generations of working class Americans. You can't appeal to "popular knowledge" as an authority. Ghosts are well-known, too.

 

[MarcoD]

Do you mean the doctor shortage in Sweden?

Of course not, and I never claimed a welfare state is without problems.

In a "welfare state", highly-contributing members of society usually leave for better opportunities. Sweden isn't even really a "welfare state" although it is strongly socialist. Ayn Rand wrote a whole book about the idea... can't remember the name... something about an Atlas rocket, or something. Pretty obscure.

Bolding is mine. "Common sense" is too frequently wrong. CAC was the one who gave a perfect example of how a "common sense" solution to a problem has damaged generations of working class Americans. You can't appeal to "popular knowledge" as an authority. Ghosts are well-known, too.

From Wikipedia: The typical worker receives 40% of his income after the tax wedge. The slowly declining overall taxation, 51.1% of GDP in 2007, is still nearly double of that in the United States or Ireland. The share of employment financed via tax income amounts to a third of Swedish workforce, a substantially higher proportion than in most other countries. Overall, GDP growth has been fast since reforms in the early 1990s, especially in manufacturing. The World Economic Forum 2009–2010 competitiveness index ranks Sweden the 4th most competitive economy in the world.

51.1% GDP goes to government and a third is employed by the state and it is one of the most competitive economies in the world.

If that doesn't show that welfare states exist, work, and are competitive, I don't know what would.

 

[daveb]

my bold
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2011/10/07/occupy-wall-street-protesters-dont-quit-their-day-jobs/

"These committees, which have attracted the support of many new to political organizing, are also counting on the support of protesters who prioritize activism over professional obligations. Indeed, many of the protesters point to the national unemployment rate of 9.1 percent as a motivation for their commitment. But they also say that their unemployment enables them to take part. After working for 10 years helping sell books for Avery Publishing on topics related to holistic health, 48-year Richard Degen was laid off during the Great Recession. He now lives off disability in a low-rent building on Pitt Street in Manhattan."

Yes? And how is that irresponsible (since you quoted me, I assume you're saying this is irresponsible)? He is on disability, he didn't quit to join OWS. There's a difference.

 

[WhoWee]

Yes? And how is that irresponsible (since you quoted me, I assume you're saying this is irresponsible)? He is on disability, he didn't quit to join OWS. There's a difference.

If he can't work - he might not be irresponsible? On the other hand, I'm not sure why he can't sell books if he can protest?

Regardless, considering his income is subsidized and housing sounds either rent controlled or subsidized - perhaps he should be more grateful?

 

[FlexGunship]

Yes? And how is that irresponsible (since you quoted me, I assume you're saying this is irresponsible)? He is on disability, he didn't quit to join OWS. There's a difference.

He's creating a contrast for you.

But they also say that their unemployment enables them to take part.

And in CONTRAST, some participants are CREATING their own unemployment by quitting.

 

[mheslep]

Sweden was definitely the welfare state model twenty, thirty years ago. That characterization is getting harder to support now, especially since the 2006 election of the center-right Reinfeldt government. As I've posted elsewhere, the Sweden of the last ten years includes:

• Universal grade school vouchers, established since 1992, allowing children to attend any school: public, private for profit, even religious.
• Partially privatized pension system
• Privatization of business. In process of selling off/privatizing state owned companies and assets, bringing in revenue in the process
• Taxes. Though the top income tax rate is still 57% to the US's 35%, taxes in Sweden are on the way down. Sweden has been sharply cutting income and business taxes, completely eliminating gift and inheritance taxes. Furthermore Swedish taxes are considerably flatter than the US system. Obviously the VAT tax is not progressive, but neither are the income taxes compared to the US. That is, there's less attempt at wealth transfer, instead people largely get back the same money they pay in (less govt overhead).
• Deregulated airlines, telecom, electricity.
• Cuts in public spending.

The idea as posited by the taxes portion of Wiki article on Sweden that total Swedish taxes are "double" the combined federal, state, and local taxes is nonsense.

References:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/world/europe/14iht-sweden.html"

The collectivist, egalitarian ideas that have been associated with Sweden for decades are fading. The debate over immigration in Sweden mirrors the debate elsewhere in Europe, where economic pressures have exacerbated tensions over the role of Islam on the continent.

“There is a general change in Swedish society,” Ms. Madestam said. “Social democratic ideas are losing their grip on Sweden, and we are getting more and more individualistic. These collectivist ideas are not so strong.”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703743504575493443146054692.html"

According to figures used by the Swedish national broadcaster SVT, 34 billion kronor ($4.8 billion) has been cut from sickness and unemployment benefits since the last election.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2010/09/16/interview-swedish-pm-look-greens-majority/"

"If we get a surplus in place we, will deliver on tax cuts for 6.1 million workers and pensioners."

"[URL OECD Says the United States Has the Most Progressive Tax System

As Column 1 in the table below shows, the U.S. tax system is far more progressive—meaning pro-poor—than similar systems in countries most Americans identify with high taxes, such as France and Sweden.

[/URL]

https://www.clevelandfed.org/research/policydis/pdp21.pdf
http://nationalinterest.org/article/swedish-models-869

 

[MarcoD]

Sweden was definitely the welfare state model twenty, thirty years ago. That characterization is getting harder to support now, especially since the 2006 election of the center-right Reinfeldt government.

But it is still a welfare state in US, and probably even Dutch, terms. And for the fact that they're blowing up their own society, I just feel sorry.

[Actually, 'educational vouchers' I would expect in a welfare state? What was the model they were coming from then? And concerning taxes, back up your claim that it is nonsense. Someone has to pay for the third employed by the government.]

 

[mheslep]

[Actually, 'educational vouchers' I would expect in a welfare state? What was the model they were coming from then?]

Socialized education: run, owned, and controlled by the state, just as in the US. In a voucher system the state only finances education; it does not necessarily run it.

 

[MarcoD]

Socialized education: run, owned, and controlled by the state, just as in the US. In a voucher system the state only finances education.

Hmm. I don't know the intricacies of the Dutch system, but we've been working with vouchers for years too. It doesn't mean a lot, except for that the distinction between private and public schools mostly disappear - all schooling is still payed by the government. If anything, it's an example of 'socialist' funding of free education.

 

[mheslep]

Hmm. I don't know the intricacies of the Dutch system, but we've been working with vouchers for years too. It doesn't mean a lot, except for that the distinction between private and public schools mostly disappear - all schooling is still payed by the government. If anything, it's an example of 'socialist' funding of free education.

Only if socialism means whatever you want to mean, changing from one minute to the next, and not the ownership and/or control of the means of production by the state. Privately run schools are not socialist, even if the student tuition is paid for by the government, unless government funding comes with so many strings that the private ownership becomes a fraud.

 

[mheslep]

But it is still a welfare state in US, and probably even Dutch, terms.

As I suggested that is not an easy case to make anymore; old assumptions don't hold. Per the OECD the US tax system is more 'progressive' than Sweden's; Dutch did away with the publicly controlled portion of their health system, while the US portion (Medicare/Medicaid) remains enormous.

And for the fact that they're blowing up their own society, I just feel sorry.

Which? Blowing up or most competitive?

... and [Sweden] is one of the most competitive economies in the world
If that doesn't show that welfare states exist, work, and are competitive.

 

[MarcoD]

I've read the links, except for the walled wsj article. Looks to me the Swedes are doing the same national reforms as the Dutch did. My personal opinion on most privatizations in my country is that it gave us some money on the short term, but is more expensive in the long run.

"[URL OECD Says the United States Has the Most Progressive Tax System

[/URL]

https://www.clevelandfed.org/research/policydis/pdp21.pdf
http://nationalinterest.org/article/swedish-models-869

I was surprised about this, but I think this is about the rate of progressiveness, not the amount of taxes, right? I already stated once that I personally believe that the rate is not as important as the amount of taxes; i.e., I really think the wages of people adjust to the taxing rate.

I believe it is mostly what you do with your taxes, not how they are collected. I wouldn't know how to substantiate that claim, though.

 

[MarcoD]

As I suggested that is not an easy case to make anymore; old assumptions don't hold. Per the OECD the US tax system is more 'progressive' than Sweden's; Dutch did away with the publicly controlled portion of their health system, while the US portion (Medicare/Medicaid) remains enormous.

As I stated before, the privatization of healthcare in the Netherlands also brought forth an explosion in cost. And it isn't as if the healthcare is now still completely private; on the radio, recently, there was news that community doctors are now cut Euro 20,000.- each annually since their cost exploded too. I don't know how they do that, but it implies the system is hardly as private as one would expect.

Which? Blowing up or most competitive?

Nah, I don't like the privatization part. I agree that in a social democracy, you need to keep on 'pruning the tree' since there is no market doing that for you. But privatization? Hell no. Now the Dutch are stuck with lots of companies which will do the same as all companies in public sectors - capitalize on the future by not investing in maintenance, and sell scraps as pieces of gold. I just don't believe in it, and that prediction now seems to come true.

 

[mheslep]

concerning taxes, back up your claim that it is nonsense. Someone has to pay for the third employed by the government.]

All government spending in the US, federal, state, and local: ~41% of GDP 2011.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_2009_2012USp_12s1li111mcn_F0t

That spending load is equal to the sum of all combined tax revenue (income personal and corporate, sales, property, tariffs) plus borrowing from the future (i.e. future taxes).

 

[MarcoD]

All government spending in the US, federal, state, and local: ~41% of GDP 2011.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_2009_2012USp_12s1li111mcn_F0t

That spending load is equal to the sum of all combined tax revenue (income personal and corporate, sales, property, tariffs) plus borrowing from the future (i.e. future taxes).

I concur, it shouldn't matter that much with respect to Sweden. We all live in welfare states, except that the US uses a rather big credit card?

 

[vici10]

Again I do not know anyone who uses their abilities to the full potential for free unless it’s at a hobby and they do something else to make a living. But is that really using your abilities to their full potential?

Grigory Perelman comes to mind. Also Douglas C. Prasher who contributed to discovery that won a Nobel prize and had to work as a driver, since he could not find a job.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/science/16prasher.html

Farnsworths, one of the inventors of TV died financially broken.
There are many people, who contributed a lot to humanity by their discoveries and hard work, but did not get a penny from it. Other people, not original inventors, profited from their labour and made plenty of money . For example: http://www.therichest.org/business/they-could-have-been-billionaires/

And these are just famous inventions, I guess there are many people that we just do not know who contributed a lot to humanity and never seen a penny of profit from it.

 

[CAC1001]

Keep in mind regarding Sweden that Sweden is a smaller country with a population of around ten million people, and a nation that has been fairly homogenous for a long time regarding things like race, religion, culture, language, etc...give it the kind of racial, religious, cultural, language, etc...diversity of say New York City alone and watch all the problems that will pop up.

 

[WhoWee]

Keep in mind regarding Sweden that Sweden is a smaller country with a population of around ten million people, and a nation that has been fairly homogenous for a long time regarding things like race, religion, culture, language, etc...give it the kind of racial, religious, cultural, language, etc...diversity of say New York City alone and watch all the problems that will pop up.

Don't forget targeted legislation that favors some groups over others - in the name of fairness and equality - and super-charge the new mix with a litigious enthusiasm - and label it all IMO.

 

[chiro]

Just a quick comment for the people blaming the capitalist system and/or rich people.

If a person has created wealth in a fair manner without any special treatment by anybody like say a government or special interest group that wields power that could be seen as an unfair advantage, then they deserve their wealth.

In a fair capitalistic system, people are rewarded when they make things that other people want, and that should not change. If you make crap that no-one wants, then you should go down. In this system, people are not entitled to wealth, they earn it, and personally I have no problem with that.

What I have a problem with, is when the fairness breaks down. I'm pretty sure this kind of thing is called croney capitalism if I recall correctly. Businesses and corporations that get special treatment in the forms of new legislation, tax breaks, or otherwise are the ones that do not deserve to be in business.

Right now, some of these organizations are acting like spoilt children who are crying to their parents for more candy, and they are getting it. If you bring up a kid and let them think it's ok to do whatever the hell they want to do, it's not really hard to see what effect this will have on the thoughts and values of that kid.

In the same way, we have let the financial system get completely out of control, and the fact that they are getting away with the kind of stuff they are getting away with explains their behavior, arrogance, and disregard for anyone else. Just like smacking a child for doing nasty **** can help them avoid the situation in the future, disciplining people who commit fraud can them from committing it and potentially worse acts in the future.

 

[OmCheeto]

Grigory Perelman comes to mind. Also Douglas C. Prasher who contributed to discovery that won a Nobel prize and had to work as a driver, since he could not find a job.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/science/16prasher.html

Farnsworths, one of the inventors of TV died financially broken.
There are many people, who contributed a lot to humanity by their discoveries and hard work, but did not get a penny from it. Other people, not original inventors, profited from their labour and made plenty of money . For example: http://www.therichest.org/business/they-could-have-been-billionaires/

And these are just famous inventions, I guess there are many people that we just do not know who contributed a lot to humanity and never seen a penny of profit from it.

shhhhh... (this is not supposed to be a logical discussion)

ps. I'd never heard of Grigori Perelman until about 2 weeks ago.

I would tell you what else my friend Vlad had to say, but it was all bad, and might make Wall Street get more(?) jittery.

 

[ParticleGrl]

In a fair capitalistic system, people are rewarded when they make things that other people want, and that should not change. If you make crap that no-one wants, then you should go down. In this system, people are not entitled to wealth, they earn it, and personally I have no problem with that.

Even in a hands-off capitalistic system, luck plays a huge role. The best product often doesn't win, hence the rise of marketing. Even great businessmen can go bust (especially early on in the life of a company).

Part of the reason for a safety net in my opinion is to ENCOURAGE entrepreneurship. If you try and get unlucky, how hard should we make it to dust yourself off and try again? How many people don't start companies because they are worried about health insurance? People are risk averse, psychological studies have shown it- they weight the downside heavier than the upside. There is a reason, after all, that Europe has a larger small business sector than the US.

I think in general people underestimate the role of luck in life.

 

[WhoWee]

Even in a hands-off capitalistic system, luck plays a huge role. The best product often doesn't win, hence the rise of marketing. Even great businessmen can go bust (especially early on in the life of a company).

Part of the reason for a safety net in my opinion is to ENCOURAGE entrepreneurship. If you try and get unlucky, how hard should we make it to dust yourself off and try again? How many people don't start companies because they are worried about health insurance? People are risk averse, psychological studies have shown it- they weight the downside heavier than the upside. There is a reason, after all, that Europe has a larger small business sector than the US.

I think in general people underestimate the role of luck in life.

I understand why you've made these statements PG. However, I've been involved with enough start-ups and franchise ventures to know a false sense of security can be very dangerous. I recently helped renegotiate finance terms for a friend that (didn't tell anyone) was 100% dependent upon the revenues from the first day in business to pay for inventory - and nobody walked through the door. This fellow absolutely knew better. He has over 20 years of experience and a great operating concept. He figured he could open on a shoestring (no partners) and make it work - then unexpected delays prevented opening on time then rent and utilities took his bank. I found out he opened with less than $35 in the cash register for change. While he may not be the individual you're thinking of generally - he is a good case study where all he needed was more time and money to make it work. The people that might be most damaged by a safety net are the ones that don't know when to pull the plug - that don't have the skills or a viable plan and dig a very deep hole.

 

[humanino]

I think in general people underestimate the role of luck in life.

Maybe you already know this quote

If people do not believe that mathematics is simple, it is only because they do not realize how complicated life is.

 

[chiro]

Even in a hands-off capitalistic system, luck plays a huge role. The best product often doesn't win, hence the rise of marketing. Even great businessmen can go bust (especially early on in the life of a company).

Part of the reason for a safety net in my opinion is to ENCOURAGE entrepreneurship. If you try and get unlucky, how hard should we make it to dust yourself off and try again? How many people don't start companies because they are worried about health insurance? People are risk averse, psychological studies have shown it- they weight the downside heavier than the upside. There is a reason, after all, that Europe has a larger small business sector than the US.

I think in general people underestimate the role of luck in life.

Ever heard the quote "The harder I work, the luckier I get"?

 

[chiro]

Even in a hands-off capitalistic system, luck plays a huge role. The best product often doesn't win, hence the rise of marketing. Even great businessmen can go bust (especially early on in the life of a company).

Part of the reason for a safety net in my opinion is to ENCOURAGE entrepreneurship. If you try and get unlucky, how hard should we make it to dust yourself off and try again? How many people don't start companies because they are worried about health insurance? People are risk averse, psychological studies have shown it- they weight the downside heavier than the upside. There is a reason, after all, that Europe has a larger small business sector than the US.

I think in general people underestimate the role of luck in life.

I see what you are saying, and I do agree that it is ridiculously hard to start a business or generate personal wealth for yourself nowadays than it used to be. If you or anyone had ideas for making it easier, even if it was just legally to start a business and commence trade with ease, then this environment would provide everyone a fairer way to do the above.

Part of this problem is debt and how it is issued and controlled. All debt is not created equal. Special interests borrow at nearly zero, and the rest of us are borrowing at double digit rates: in a fair and equitable society, this wouldn't happen.

Also since credit is the lifeblood of a business, they are forced to take on debt, which further exacerbates the problem.

It's interesting though because most of us are as you say risk-averse, but the people access to lots of this stuff, like some people in banks, are really not that risk averse at all.

Peter Schiff gave a good statement to members of congress that outlined some of the problems and some solutions to help encourage business activity in the United States and I thought his suggestions were very good.

Also one thing you should realize is that being able to run your own business and generate your own wealth (I am talking about true wealth) is not something that everybody wants.

I say that with complete honesty, and if you really need to see this in action, then look at the riots happening, look at what institutions like the IMF are doing when they lend money to governments and look at the exact conditions of the loan. Look at what real assets are being used as collateral against a made-up debt.

If everyone had the chance to start a business of their own in a truly free and fair way, we would all prosper like no other time in the history of the world, and if I had one suggestion to make this happen, it would be to abolish the whole system of the creation of debt and credit and get a lot of people with diverse experiences and roles across many areas to structure something that gives people a fair go.

 

[Oltz]

Grigory Perelman comes to mind. Also Douglas C. Prasher who contributed to discovery that won a Nobel prize and had to work as a driver, since he could not find a job.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/science/16prasher.html

Farnsworths, one of the inventors of TV died financially broken.
There are many people, who contributed a lot to humanity by their discoveries and hard work, but did not get a penny from it. Other people, not original inventors, profited from their labour and made plenty of money . For example: http://www.therichest.org/business/they-could-have-been-billionaires/

And these are just famous inventions, I guess there are many people that we just do not know who contributed a lot to humanity and never seen a penny of profit from it.

Not making a profit and working hard and using your full potential are 3 separate issues. Do we know what other choices theser people made did Farnsworth try to do it all by himself and fail to market or budget properly? Maybe he did not have enough production capacity that even if he sold every unit it would not cover the costs? Maybe he liked gambling?

Lots of people work hard and make bad choices. Some people use their full potential and make bad choices.
Some people only do enough to make a profit but live in their means and are able to save enough and have a diverse portfolio and realize long term growth.

I do not know anyone who does not want to make a profit do you? Plenty of people in history have contributed but died in the gutter because of choices they made.

 

[FlexGunship]

Even in a hands-off capitalistic system, luck plays a huge role.

I find that I hear this most from people who are having trouble succeeding with their chosen life plan.

Don't get me wrong, your post is insightful and truthful. Certainly, a safety net for entrepreneurs is important; but it's not a good final resting place. The problem is that they're rewarded for failure, and punished for success.

 

[mheslep]

... except that the US uses a rather big credit card?

Agreed!

 

[mheslep]

There is a reason, after all, that Europe has a larger small business sector than the US.

Could you please point to a reference on that?

 

[WhoWee]

I see what you are saying, and I do agree that it is ridiculously hard to start a business or generate personal wealth for yourself nowadays than it used to be. If you or anyone had ideas for making it easier, even if it was just legally to start a business and commence trade with ease, then this environment would provide everyone a fairer way to do the above.

Part of this problem is debt and how it is issued and controlled. All debt is not created equal. Special interests borrow at nearly zero, and the rest of us are borrowing at double digit rates: in a fair and equitable society, this wouldn't happen.

Also since credit is the lifeblood of a business, they are forced to take on debt, which further exacerbates the problem.

It's interesting though because most of us are as you say risk-averse, but the people access to lots of this stuff, like some people in banks, are really not that risk averse at all.

Peter Schiff gave a good statement to members of congress that outlined some of the problems and some solutions to help encourage business activity in the United States and I thought his suggestions were very good.

Also one thing you should realize is that being able to run your own business and generate your own wealth (I am talking about true wealth) is not something that everybody wants.

I say that with complete honesty, and if you really need to see this in action, then look at the riots happening, look at what institutions like the IMF are doing when they lend money to governments and look at the exact conditions of the loan. Look at what real assets are being used as collateral against a made-up debt.

If everyone had the chance to start a business of their own in a truly free and fair way, we would all prosper like no other time in the history of the world, and if I had one suggestion to make this happen, it would be to abolish the whole system of the creation of debt and credit and get a lot of people with diverse experiences and roles across many areas to structure something that gives people a fair go.

It sounds great - not realistic - but great.