News Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

[WhoWee]

Let's gain some perspective here. Tea-party events were typically one-day affairs populated by (often) retired people bused in for the events by organizers, and then bused back home. The occupy movement is long-term and continuous, and the larger events are organized enough to provide food and health-care services. Do you not think that such amenities (plus the attraction of a large crowd to blend into) might attract miscreants who are not socially or politically motivated? Comparing the occupy movement with the astroturf Tea-party movement is disingenuous, at best, especially when extrapolating incidents of criminality to condemn one or the other.

Do we have any reports of TEA Party people destroying their motel rooms or buses? Are there any reports of TEA Party vandals, public urination, illegal drug use, disorderly conduct, or other bad behavior?

I'm understanding your comment to indicate the TEA Party is comprised of peaceful protesters - mostly senior citizens that don't cause trouble and wouldn't engage in the behavior observed and reported at the Occupied locations - is this correct?

 

[WhoWee]

The latest reports from Oakland:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/us/protest-in-oakland-turns-violent.html
"Protest in Oakland Turns Violent"

"A roving group of about 100 mostly young men broke from the main group of protesters in a central plaza and roamed through downtown streets spraying graffiti, burning garbage and breaking windows. The police said some in the group briefly occupied a building on 16th Street near the port.

After warning the group to clear the building, which according to local media reports was vacant, officers in riot gear fired tear gas and bean bag rounds shortly after midnight local time. Dozens of protesters “wielding shields” were arrested, the police said; the building was cleared by around 2 a.m.

The spasm of violence early Thursday morning came after thousands of Occupy Oakland protesters had expanded their anti-Wall Street demonstrations on Wednesday, marching through downtown, picketing banks and swarming the port. By early evening, port authorities said maritime operations there were effectively shut down.

“Maritime area operations will resume when it is safe and secure to do so,” port officials said in a statement, asking marchers to “allow your fellow 99% to get home safe to their families.”"

There are real damages to recover (subrogation) at this point. Now the Occupiers might learn how the court system operates.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/subrogation

 

[Proton Soup]

The "lack" of a cause is something pushed by the right-wing and their media stooges. I think that we all have a pretty good idea what Wall Street has done to this country over the past few decades. The right would love to make OWS condense these problems into a few sound-bites, so that they could use their media stooges to excoriate the protesters and demean them and their motivations.

We have overwhelming systemic corruption in big business and government and the media. When any proposal that might benefit the populace is decried as "socialism" and any proposal that might benefit the wealthy is elevated as "free-market capitalism" (corporate-welfare, anybody?), we have some serious disconnects in perception and language. George Orwell was prescient, and would have been shocked (IMO) to see how thoroughly doublethink has pervaded the US political "discourse".

it's not just the right, turbo. corporations are not just republican. stop falling for that. Jon Corzine is a Democrat.

if FOX is the right, and MSNBC the left, you really think you're getting anything about OWS agenda from MSNBC that isn't just fluff?

 

[turbo]

it's not just the right, turbo. corporations are not just republican. stop falling for that. Jon Corzine is a Democrat.

if FOX is the right, and MSNBC the left, you really think you're getting anything about OWS agenda from MSNBC that isn't just fluff?

I have not fallen for that dichotomy, PS. Both major parties are corrupt. Major corporations tend to give heavily to Republicans, but their lobbyists always hedge their bets with Democratic donations. Then you have finance and insurance companies, who throw money around like crazy to members of both parties.

I have not been enrolled in either party for many years, except for individual exceptions 'way back when I wanted to have some influence in a caucus or primary.

 

[WhoWee]

The latest reports from Oakland:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/us/protest-in-oakland-turns-violent.html
"Protest in Oakland Turns Violent"

"A roving group of about 100 mostly young men broke from the main group of protesters in a central plaza and roamed through downtown streets spraying graffiti, burning garbage and breaking windows. The police said some in the group briefly occupied a building on 16th Street near the port.

After warning the group to clear the building, which according to local media reports was vacant, officers in riot gear fired tear gas and bean bag rounds shortly after midnight local time. Dozens of protesters “wielding shields” were arrested, the police said; the building was cleared by around 2 a.m.

The spasm of violence early Thursday morning came after thousands of Occupy Oakland protesters had expanded their anti-Wall Street demonstrations on Wednesday, marching through downtown, picketing banks and swarming the port. By early evening, port authorities said maritime operations there were effectively shut down.

“Maritime area operations will resume when it is safe and secure to do so,” port officials said in a statement, asking marchers to “allow your fellow 99% to get home safe to their families.”"

There are real damages to recover (subrogation) at this point. Now the Occupiers might learn how the court system operates.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/subrogation

This seems like a good time to remind everyone how concerned former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is about protests having the potential to turn into mob scenes where (in the past) people were injured and Harvey Milk was murdered. As turbo pointed out earlier in the thread - the TEA Party included a great number of peaceful retirees. Accordingly, Nancy Pelosi didn't have much to worry about from those protesters. However, this group of Occupiers must be of GREAT concern to her?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glenn...ng_violence_Was_she_invoking_Milk_murder.html

"September 17, 2009
Categories: Bad Behavior
Pelosi warns right of inciting "violence" — invoking Harvey Milk murder

An uncharacteristically emotional Nancy Pelosi is warning Republicans — and other groups getting whipped up over the health care debate — not to incite unstable supporters who might repeat acts of violence that struck San Francisco in the 1970s.

A top Pelosi aide later confirmed reporters' suggestions that her statement was a reference to the City Hall murder of gay rights activist Harvey Milk and Mayor George Moscone in November 1978 — an earth-shattering experience for Bay Area Democrats like the speaker."

If you support the Occupiers - PLEASE call Nancy Pelosi and comfort her.

******

On the other hand - the Democrats seem to want to get involved with the Occupiers - from a distance?
http://www.latimes.com/news/politic...es+-+Politics)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

"Democrats to embrace 'Occupy' themes, if not movement itself"

 

[mheslep]

As turbo pointed out earlier in the thread - the TEA Party included a great number of peaceful retirees. ...

The Tea Party is not mostly retirees.

 

[Gokul43201]

The Tea Party is not mostly retirees.

But I think "included a great number" is not inaccurate either. From the NYT poll last year, the median age appears to be near the mid-50s and nearly a third are older than 64.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ea-party-poll-graphic.html?ref=politics#tab=9

 

[OmCheeto]

Finally, here is a great idea, only loosely related to the OWS movement, but unlike OWS it has a point, is focused, absent demagoguery, absent violence, and likely to be effective.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/11/03/can-credit-unions-make-a-success-of-bank-transfer-day/

That idea actually scares me.

If the bottom 99% transferred all their money to credit unions, it might degenerate into a total market crash.

But then again, if the bottom 99% transferred all their money to credit unions, and it had no effect, it would be even scarier. (Because then, everyone would know.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDZBgHBHQT8

 

[mheslep]

But I think "included a great number" is not inaccurate either. From the NYT poll last year, the median age appears to be near the mid-50s and nearly a third are older than 64.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ea-party-poll-graphic.html?ref=politics#tab=9

Then the US adult population also "includes a great number" of retirees. About a fifth of the US adult population is older than 64. BTW, Gallup at the same time as that NY Time poll (Spring 2010) said the TP almost exactly matches US adult demographics. Similar N. Somebody has the wrong rolodex.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/127181/tea-partiers-fairly-mainstream-demographics.aspx

 

[OmCheeto]

No he doesn't. However, I think the police and mayors in every city across the country now have a responsibility to observe the Occupied protesters more closely. Based on reports, they should be aware of and look for the following:
1.) registered sex offenders,
2.) underage girls,
3.) terror suspects (given the recent events in Oakland related to the docks),
4.) persons engaged in distributing illegal substances or engaging in any un-permitted sales (check vendor permits),
5.) health inspections
6.) vandalism and/or property damage (private and public)

We can add to the list as events develop.

drats! I wrote up a wonderful response to this post about an hour ago, and then pushed the wrong button. All gone...

let's see if I can recreate it in less that 5 minutes.

"Why did Char unsubscribe?..."

A. The grammar really sucked?
B. He's a fan of Eleanor Roosevelt?
C. It sucks to be associated with the human race?
D. None of the above.​

My vote of course, was B.

Great minds discuss ideas: What do the goofknuckle OWS people want? What do I want?
Mediocre minds discuss events: OWS! (That's me...)
Little minds discuss people: They're all a bunch of rapists!

skreeetch!...

although, in your own, roundabout way, WhoWee, you've pointed out that there are many problems with our society, that need fixing.

1.) registered sex offenders,
2.) underage girls,
3.) terror suspects (given the recent events in Oakland related to the docks),
4.) persons engaged in distributing illegal substances or engaging in any un-permitted sales (check vendor permits),
5.) health inspections
6.) vandalism and/or property damage (private and public)

Maybe this is a connection point for the OWS & Teabaggers, to join forces.

Stop all immigration!

Emma may have been correct back then, but I think we've reached the limit. We have more than enough wretched refuse in our inner cities...

1883
The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

and this is also probably a good time for Evo to pop in and say; "Over-Freakin-Population! Told ya!"

ps. I may have spent too much time at this forum. Perhaps it's time to move on.

 

[Evo]

and this is also probably a good time for Evo to pop in and say; "Over-Freakin-Population! Told ya!"

Damn straight it's over freaking population!

30 years ago, you picked out what apartment you wanted to live in and moved in. Now you go, you have to fill out an application, you have to be interviewed, they verify employment and income, they check your credit, check if you have a police record, check references, if approved, you go on a waiting list.

30 years ago if you wanted a job, you walked into a business and applied for a job and were hired the same day. Now you submit your resume online along with 10,000 others, you never get to speak to a human, and unless you know someone, it will never even get read. Too many people. Thank goodness I don't have to deal with that rat race, but I know too many that do.

 

[WhoWee]

The Tea Party is not mostly retirees.

Turbo and OMCheeto took an interest in painting the TEA Party as older peaceful folks that would not/perhaps could not rape anyone - this in sharp contrast to the (now violent) young protesters in the Occupied movement.

I think they've both been very effective in explaining that TEA Party rallies were controlled and peaceful - regardless of how they reached their respective conclusions.

 

[WhoWee]

drats! I wrote up a wonderful response to this post about an hour ago, and then pushed the wrong button. All gone...

let's see if I can recreate it in less that 5 minutes.

"Why did Char unsubscribe?..."

A. The grammar really sucked?
B. He's a fan of Eleanor Roosevelt?
C. It sucks to be associated with the human race?
D. None of the above.​

My vote of course, was B.

Great minds discuss ideas: What do the goofknuckle OWS people want? What do I want?
Mediocre minds discuss events: OWS! (That's me...)
Little minds discuss people: They're all a bunch of rapists!

skreeetch!...

although, in your own, roundabout way, WhoWee, you've pointed out that there are many problems with our society, that need fixing.



Maybe this is a connection point for the OWS & Teabaggers, to join forces.

Stop all immigration!

Emma may have been correct back then, but I think we've reached the limit. We have more than enough wretched refuse in our inner cities...



and this is also probably a good time for Evo to pop in and say; "Over-Freakin-Population! Told ya!"

ps. I may have spent too much time at this forum. Perhaps it's time to move on.

You'll be back.

 

[OmCheeto]

You'll be back.

Not if I get banned!

Many people whom I've adored, are no longer with us.(Nismar! CRGhttps://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=457261")

I so want to join them.

So much anger. So much to do. So little time.

hmmm...

odd.

[PLAIN]http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/1962/124922-bladerunroybatty.jpg

I seem to remember a similar bird.

 

[CAC1001]

Let's gain some perspective here. Tea-party events were typically one-day affairs populated by (often) retired people bused in for the events by organizers, and then bused back home. The occupy movement is long-term and continuous, and the larger events are organized enough to provide food and health-care services. Do you not think that such amenities (plus the attraction of a large crowd to blend into) might attract miscreants who are not socially or politically motivated? Comparing the occupy movement with the astroturf Tea-party movement is disingenuous, at best, especially when extrapolating incidents of criminality to condemn one or the other.

The Tea Party has been long-term and continuous as well. Note the influence it had in the Congressional elections, and in getting the government to discuss the debt and deficit issue. I also would not say it was astro-turf because an astro-turf movement isn't a real movement.

 

[CAC1001]

Weather derivatives?

Wow. If half of that is true...

Charles Koch, the CEO of Koch Industries who is worth a reported $22 billion, likes to call his business an example of something he describes as the “Science of Liberty.” In reality, his company’s deregulation crusade has contributed to rolling blackouts, consolidation and monopolies in financial markets, and economy-wrecking oil price spikes. In comments to the CFTC, the reform-minded nonprofit Better Markets noted that, “the history of these markets is a history of anti-competitive, self-interested, predatory conduct that serves the interest of the exclusive few at the expense of the many and the system as a whole.”

By the "deregulation crusade," I wonder if they're referring to the California episode of rolling blackouts after the supposed deregulation that occurred there, which if the case, what happened in California was not deregulation, it was just a form of re-regulation that caused the markets to act screwy. I think they are also over-simplifying the subject. Deregulation is not on its own going to lead to monopolies and consolidation in the financial markets. If anything, that's what often happens in response to increases in regulations. Regarding oil price spikes, oil is traded in the markets. This can either spike or reduce the price of oil, but that is what happens with trading.

Also, what industry is not anti-competitive, self-interested, and predatory? That's just the nature of capitalism. Sometimes, regulations are needed to reign in the excesses of such behavior. Other times, regulations are utilized by the industry players for these very reasons.

The Koch brothers themselves are libertarians, and thus philosophically against regulations, subsidies, and generally government tinkering with the market in any way. Koch Industries for example could benefit a lot from natural gas subsidies, but the company is against such subsidies. The reason the Kochs get villified so much is because their company is involved in a whole bunch of industries that the Left vitriolically (if that's a word) hate, and also love to regulate. Oil, finance, paper products (i.e. growing trees and cutting them down), etc...Koch Industries is in it.

The haters like to portray the Kochs as the cartoonish image of the ultra-greedy businessman, worth billions of dollars, but against any and all regulations that might cut into their profits, not caring about anyone. They ignore how many big companies in those industries benefit from said regulations and how Koch Industries is against regulations and subsidies that would benefit it as well. They also never bring up the libertarian philosophy of the Koch brothers and what its views on things are.

 

[CAC1001]

No it isn't.

Howso? Free societies do not result in everyone getting more equal in terms of equality of outcome. They DO result in everyone getting wealthier though, just everyone is unequally wealthy. In the 19th century, you had very poor Americans, and some very rich Americans. Today, we have "poor" and "rich," but even our poor are often wealthy by global standards (obesity is a problem among many of the poor for example). So in this sense, free societies result in a more equal outcome in terms of the base standard of living.

This may have once been partially true. But we are not talking about "a lot of wealthy people", we are talking about only a few extremely wealthy people who control of the majority of the worlds wealth. At the same time we are looking at a declining standard of living, Fewer jobs, increased debt, increased bankruptcy, rising unemployment, lack of quality affordable health care particularly for those in lower income brackets, those who have lost there jobs, etc.

A few people will always control the majority of the wealth, because only a few people have the drive, take the risk, experience the luck required, etc...to create such wealth. But the wealth isn't some fixed pie. The pie grows constantly. Fewer jobs is a problem of the current economic malaise, not the normal course of things. Lack of affordable healthcare is due to a variety of factors. Increased debt is largely the fault of people not being careful with their finances as they should.

Not sure what you mean by "equality of outcome"

Everyone comes out the same, so there are no rich, middle-income, or poor, everyone comes out the same, so the people who takes risks to start huge businesses, the people who work very hard at their jobs, and the people who sit on their butts, all have the same living standard.

When you have a greater equality of income the people living in that society generally have more freedom. When you have large disparities of income you have more people locked into a socio-economic class that becomes more and more difficult to escape the greater the disparity grows.

Free societies are not divided into fixed classes. So when you have disparities in incomes, those are just statistical income quintiles. They don't represent the actual people in the income quintiles, who move into and out of the income quintiles constantly. It's like when you hear that the highest-earning 1% are seeing their incomes increase while the rest of society stagnates. This gives the impression that the highest-earning 1% is a fixed-class of people. It isn't. A whole lot of people who were in the highest-earning 1% are now in one of the lower brackets, or not earning anything at all even. But yet the statistical quintile labeled "highest-earning 1%" remains. Income disparities also ignore the way society increases in wealth. You could make $40,000 your entire life, but $40K a year in 2011 will buy you a lot more than it would in 1991.

 

[LaurieAG]

You could make $40,000 your entire life, but $40K a year in 2011 will buy you a lot more than it would in 1991.

Like automobile fuel?

 

[WhoWee]

Like automobile fuel?

Maybe cell phones?

 

[OmCheeto]

Turbo and OMCheeto took an interest in painting the TEA Party as older peaceful folks that would not/perhaps could not rape anyone - this in sharp contrast to the (now violent) young protesters in the Occupied movement.

I think they've both been very effective in explaining that TEA Party rallies were controlled and peaceful - regardless of how they reached their respective conclusions.

Do you live in a shoebox?

Occupy Oakland bonfire made of trash can's and junk

Occupy Athens bonfire made of humans
[URL]http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/may2010/6/3/greek-riot-pic-reuters-389159773.jpg[/URL]

Your definition of violence is pathetic, IMHO.

 

[turbo]

Once again, the Tea Party rallies were day-long affairs populated by generally older people who were bused in and bused back home (thanks Koch brothers!) while the Occupy movements are ongoing long-term affairs. Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.

 

[dlgoff]

... Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.

Yep. A month ago I chimed in with this. Still looks similar to me.

I very rarely come to Politics & World Affairs and have only skimmed this thread.

Anyway, all this unrest resembles, IMO, the beginning of unrest during my college days at The Kansas University.

http://kuinfo.ku.edu/vision/"

[PLAIN]http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos/2004/12/19/protest1___t180.jpg?370a03faaa4bde2115f371a02430eb3e6a451be5[PLAIN]http://media.kansan.com/img/videothumbs/2009/12/03/DraftProtest1965__t180.jpg?370a03faaa4bde2115f371a02430eb3e6a451be5[PLAIN]http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos/2010/04/17/1970_Lawrence_025_t180.JPG?370a03faaa4bde2115f371a02430eb3e6a451be5 [/QUOTE]

 

[WhoWee]

Do you live in a shoebox?

Occupy Oakland bonfire made of trash can's and junk

Occupy Athens bonfire made of humans
[URL]http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/may2010/6/3/greek-riot-pic-reuters-389159773.jpg[/URL]

Your definition of violence is pathetic, IMHO.

Nice.

 

[mheslep]

... Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.

Yep. A month ago I chimed in with this. Still looks similar to me.

These are grotesque apologies for and misdirection about violence against both property and person, and unsupported conspiracy theory instigation.

 

[WhoWee]

Once again, the Tea Party rallies were day-long affairs populated by generally older people who were bused in and bused back home (thanks Koch brothers!) while the Occupy movements are ongoing long-term affairs. Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.

Can you support the Koch brothers comment? Also, why would the government led by President Obama - or the Eric Holder Justice Department or FBI or the Homeland Security departments - or ANY other federal department "have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action"? Can you support this?

 

[nsaspook]

Conspiracy theorist have no parties or ideologies. They are united by the belief in supernatural powers of the chosen evil.

 

[turbo]

The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there.

 

[WhoWee]

The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there.

Not so fast turbo. You specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

I'll assume you're referring back to the days of Nixon - are you now suggesting President Obama's Administration would allow such practices? Does your "It happens all the time." comment mean now and since President Obama took office?

 

[turbo]

Not so fast turbo. You specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

I'll assume you're referring back to the days of Nixon - are you now suggesting President Obama's Administration would allow such practices? Does your "It happens all the time." comment mean now and since President Obama took office?

Do you think Obama controls how local and state police and all federal agencies conduct their intelligence-gathering functions? Now, who is the conspiracy-theorist? That Obama must be really busy pulling all those strings. Really!

And the anti-war movement didn't start under Nixon. I'm assuming that you weren't too politically-aware at the time. I was.

 

[nsaspook]

I'm old and was there too, and it was given that agents were are every meeting or rally. The conspiracy is that deep down in a hole somewhere, men with black robes see these peaceful freedom fighters and send in specially trained agent provocateurs to destroy them from the inside out. Sure, you can also stop the heart of a goat by staring at it.

 

[mheslep]

The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there.

Saying something happened before as a substitute for a complete lack of evidence in the current case is conspiracy theory 101.

 

[dlgoff]

Does your "It happens all the time." comment mean now and since President Obama took office?

I'm sorry but this too much. Bring in Obama.

 

[WhoWee]

Do you think Obama controls how local and state police and all federal agencies conduct their intelligence-gathering functions? Now, who is the conspiracy-theorist? That Obama must be really busy pulling all those strings. Really!

And the anti-war movement didn't start under Nixon. I'm assuming that you weren't too politically-aware at the time. I was.

Nixon seems to be the favorite target (rather than Johnson) - that is not the issue. I'm asking you to clarify your statement. Again, you stated:
""Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.""

Do you honestly believe this happens (federal agencies - not state or local) under the Obama Administration/Eric Holder Justice Department?

 

[gravenewworld]

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-risingThis article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

 

[nsaspook]

...A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

It's more likely that the "new age" claptrap about 2012 will come true than anything productive from the current Occupy movement. I would suggest they declare victory and move indoors for the winter. This way they can keep the anarchists faction off the streets and not all die of pneumonia.

 

[Galteeth]

Saying something happened before as a substitute for a complete lack of evidence in the current case is conspiracy theory 101.

Would you like some evidence that intelligence infiltration into recent political movements is alive and well?

 

[edward]

Infiltration into opposing groups has always existed. No need to to think it has stopped now.

Infiltration by Police and FBI into political groups has been the norm for years. We probably have Homeland security looking at all groups.

TEA PARTY INFILTRATES OCCUPY LAS VEGAS:

Unfortunately, this has also allowed a Libertarian/Tea Party Militia to infiltrate and begin to dominate the movement. Jim Duensing, a Tea Party Express operative and Libertarian Congressional candidate, has become involved in the Occupy Las Vegas group and brought his like minded colleagues from his extremist fringe groups to events and meetings. These members act threatening at times and are very vocal about their right to free speech and their right to bare arms. At one point, the police were called to remove some members for participating in a threatening and aggressive manner.

http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-las-vegas/tea-party-infiltrates-occupy-las-vegas

 

[WhoWee]

Infiltration into opposing groups has always existed. No need to to think it has stopped now.

Infiltration by Police and FBI into political groups has been the norm for years. We probably have Homeland security looking at all groups.

TEA PARTY INFILTRATES OCCUPY LAS VEGAS:

http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-las-vegas/tea-party-infiltrates-occupy-las-vegas

Let's be clear edward - are you supporting turbo's specific claim? Turbo specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

Before you reply - please recall there were over 800 arrests in NY and the port was disrupted in Oakland. I think we need additional clarification from turbo - do you agree?

 

[Evo]

Let's be clear edward - are you supporting turbo's specific claim? Turbo specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

Before you reply - please recall there were over 800 arrests in NY and the port was disrupted in Oakland. I think we need additional clarification from turbo - do you agree?

Turbo doesn't have to defend an opinion, you know that.

 

[mheslep]

Would you like some evidence that intelligence infiltration into recent political movements is alive and well?

Of course the police and intelligence agencies infiltrate suspected http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Portland_car_bomb_plot" foreign political movements which is part of their job. There have been dozens of sexual assaults reported, theft, arson, and thousands of arrests so any diligent police department ought to have some undercover cops around. Intelligence gathering is not the objectionable claim. I want evidence of this:

...police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.

 

[Evo]

Of course the police and intelligence agencies infiltrate suspected http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Portland_car_bomb_plot" foreign political movements which is part of their job. There have been dozens of sexual assaults reported, theft, arson, and thousands of arrests so any diligent police department ought to have some undercover cops around. Intelligence gathering is not the objectionable claim. I want evidence of this:

turbo said

Please don't be too surprised...

Let's please get back on topic.

 

[WhoWee]

Turbo doesn't have to defend an opinion, you know that.

In post 871 turbo said:
"Once again, the Tea Party rallies were day-long affairs populated by generally older people who were bused in and bused back home (thanks Koch brothers!) while the Occupy movements are ongoing long-term affairs. Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."


I don't see any opinion labels - or support for the Koch brothers comment - and he didn't stop at this comment.
*******

Next, in post 877 turbo defended post 871 with this statement:my bold

"The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there."


I'm sorry Evo, but this appears (to me) to be a statement of fact asserted by turbo - not opinion?

******

In post 879 turbo continues to defend his position with this:

"Do you think Obama controls how local and state police and all federal agencies conduct their intelligence-gathering functions? Now, who is the conspiracy-theorist? That Obama must be really busy pulling all those strings. Really!

And the anti-war movement didn't start under Nixon. I'm assuming that you weren't too politically-aware at the time. I was."


This response was intended - IMO - avoid supporting earlier comments and continues his assertions regarding "intelligence-gathering functions".
****

IMO - turbo has exceeded any accepted standard of "opinion" on this one and either needs to label it as an opinion or support.

 

[ginru]

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-risingThis article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

Interesting read. Thanks for posting it. I also found his article on http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/09/19/the-old-man-and-the-sea-2011" to be pretty inspiring.

Even though these protests are being dismissed by many people, I believe this generation is only beginning to really explore their potential through an adept use of technology. They may come off as awkward and disorganized, but the Arab Spring has shown them what their generation can accomplish with technology to mobilize people in terms of physical presence.

This OWS movement will probably fail when they realize that simply gathering stubborn crowds aren't enough to dethrone an entrenched economic system. The important thing is that they learn from that eventual failure and then evolve their strategy towards the digital mobilization of income and purchase-power. That is when they'll really tap into their potential for changing the system.

 

[OmCheeto]

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-rising


This article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

Cool...

I will have to read that in the morning.

I was just telling someone about 20 minutes ago, that what is going on, is way past my comprehension level.

And I'm a self-proclaimed really smart person, that professes, to know nothing, in 30 plus languages...

I love my hobby.

 

[OmCheeto]

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-rising


This article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

hmmm... You weren't kidding when you said it would take fortitude...

Just read the 1st half.

Sounds very much like what PF'ers have been saying since I've been here.

As a borderline boomer/gen x'er (like Obama), I tend to sit on the fence, and watch all of the cats and dogs fight, wondering what the hell all the commotion is about.

But I'm really tired at the moment, and haven't read the whole thing, so I'll just, right before I go to bed, post one of my silly musical interpretations, inspired by your silly article:

Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?

you let laws be your guide...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWBG1j_flrg

good night, and god bless you all. :zzz:

 

[OmCheeto]

Finally, here is a great idea, only loosely related to the OWS movement, but unlike OWS it has a point, is focused, absent demagoguery, absent violence, and likely to be effective.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/11/03/can-credit-unions-make-a-success-of-bank-transfer-day/

I read up on that yesterday. I believe today is the day.

650,000 people have apparently moved their money from the big banks to local credit unions, with a net value of $4.5 billion.

According to http://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-transfer-day-marches-planned-banks-nationwide/story?id=14889051" , the number is up to 1 million people.

Then I checked out the market cap of the big banks:


Wells Fargo & Company...$133.91
JPMorgan Chase & Co...$129.05
Citigroup Inc...$88.71
Bank of America Corp...$65.77
Goldman Sachs Group, Inc...$53.13
Morgan Stanley...$32.23
Total......$502.80
amounts are in billions

Then I did the maths:

If 65,000,000 were to transfer their accounts, with a dollar for dollar correspondence with the 650k, it would amount to $450 billion.

I smiled.

Go OWS, Go!

 

[Evo]

Go OWS, Go!

But this has nothing to do with OWS, as a matter of fact the person that suggested this on Facebook has been emphatic that it is not related to OWS.

From your link

The 27-year-old art gallery owner from Los Angeles said she had never participated in any Occupy activities, and posted the following disclaimer on her website:

"While the Bank Transfer Day movement acknowledges the enthusiasm from Anonymous and Occupy Wall Street, the Bank Transfer Day movement was neither inspired by, derived from nor organized by Anonymous or the Occupy Wall Street movement, and the Bank Transfer Day movement does not endorse any activities conducted by Anonymous or Occupy Wall Street," the Facebook page for BankTransferDay.org states.

 

[WhoWee]

I can't think of anything more juvenile or irresponsible than moving your money from a large bank because some random group thinks it's a good idea. If it was effective it could caused a run on the banks and trigger federal intervention. Who would want a bank panic?

The reality is big banks have more locations - they're generally more convenient. I'm looking forward to hearing horror stories of how direct deposits were lost, delayed, or otherwise "messed up" because of this nonsense.

 

[Proton Soup]

credit unions tend to be local affairs. if people transfer their money, it would likely be right down the street.

convenience? pbbttt! damn kids! the world works mighty fine on checks, and *gasp*, CASH! why should people support the very institutions that are setting up fraudulent investment schemes and crashing the economy? these firms need to burn to the ground.

 

[WhoWee]

credit unions tend to be local affairs. if people transfer their money, it would likely be right down the street.

convenience? pbbttt! damn kids! the world works mighty fine on checks, and *gasp*, CASH! why should people support the very institutions that are setting up fraudulent investment schemes and crashing the economy? these firms need to burn to the ground.

Doesn't Bank of America have about 6,000 locations and 250,000 employees? My guess is most of these branches offer personal and business checking and savings accounts, make car loans, home loans, business loans, and operate 6 days per week. I doubt if more than 2 -5% of all offices have anything to do with non-retail activities.