News Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

[Pengwuino]

I keep seeing these guys on the news.

Have these kids figured out why they're whining yet?

 

[WhoWee]

I keep seeing these guys on the news.

Have these kids figured out why they're whining yet?

It's just a guess, but I think they want their share of our 401K's.

 

[WhoWee]

Apparently this "movement" is in favor of corporate bailouts(?) - otherwise, why would the UAW participate?

http://news.yahoo.com/unions-lend-muscle-resources-wall-st-protests-070702582.html

""The great thing about Occupy Wall Street is that they have brought the focus of the entire country on the middle class majority," said George Aldro, 62, a member of Local 2325 of the United Auto Workers, as he carried the union's blue flag over his shoulder through lower Manhattan.
"We're in it together, and we're in it for the long haul.""

 

[Vanadium 50]

Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

You see...it's on the radar screen.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

You see...it's on the radar screen.

Where did that quote come from?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Message 82.

 

[John Creighto]

It's just a guess, but I think they want their share of our 401K's.

So we're getting at the crux of the matter which I mentioned here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3539978&postcount=90

The question is, do you think the next generation will make enough to support the corporate assets you’ve invested in? Because if they can’t make enough to support themselves how are they going to support their parents. Any debt you own is only valuable if it is sustainable and the future corporate revenue stream is only worth something in there is future demand to support it.

 

[John Creighto]

What you have said is important and I won't deny that.

However having said this, people should learn that they do have a level of power within themselves to effect change without having to protest.

First of all they can stop supporting the corporations by not buying their products and get other people to do so. If one person stops buying coca cola, it's an inconvenience. If a million people suddenly stop buying it, it's a clear message. The fact is corporations need people to buy their products and services. The good part about real capitalism is that it works both ways: people that make stuff that other people want get rich, and people that don't sell anything go out of business. Use that knowledge to your advantage.

Also I know that what is happening right now with banks and corporations is largely "anti-capitalist" since they are getting an unfair advantage from the government, but I will talk about that below. With this said I still encourage what I have said above as a supplementary part of the solution.

One idea I have heard form Max Keiser that seems very effective is to look at ways to attack a companies stock price through some kind of informational campaign.

The other way to stop supporting the current banking system is to minimize your debt. Cut up your credit cards, don't get a 300,000 or half a million dollar mortgage on a standard or low wage, and don't buy crap you don't need.

These banks function because of debt, and they are leveraged at mind boggling levels. If people stopped borrowing, then all of that leveraged money would not exist, and banks wouldn't have the kind of power they have now. You minimize your debt, you put the power back in your hands, and if/when it catches on, you send a message to the system that it is time to change. When you take out a loan, a lot of the stuff on the balance sheet is created out of thin air. If you reduce this activity, you severely cripple the system, since it depends on this ability, which is why it needs debt.

These banking institutions are leveraged so much, that it is easier nowadays to do a bank-run or to bring down these institutions in a much easier fashion.

Like other people have said in this thread we need a revolution, but we need it on more than one level. One level is what I've described in my post. Another level is what other posters have described.

It requires a level of social change that is unprecedented. For most people, we can not imagine living without credit cards, mortgages, car loans, and student loans. It also requires people to take an active interest in what their government is doing, and if it is acting in the interests of the people. It requires people to (more) responsible, and to take an interest in their fellow being. It also requires that many of the social structures that we have to organize society in many important areas need to be reviewed and changed.

Finally, this also is a time to realize that no one person, or selective group will be able to accomplish this. For something that is going to be effective especially in the long term, we need everyone's output in one form or another. The experiment of letting the few lead the masses has failed every time in history, and it has not surprisingly failed again. The whole idea of having many sovereign groups versus a global superstate makes sense from this point of view.

It's an exciting time in the history of human civilization, but it is important for us, especially in this age of technology, that we mature socially as well as in other ways.

I agree to a point but the current system is set up to reward those who borrow. As for a bank run…..Such tactics will be painful given the dramatic impact on the market and the quick drop in the money supply. Additionally there is nothing stopping the central banks from simply buying the bank assets to maintain liquidity. Additionally, the government has laws against hording currency and even gold for that matter.

 

[WhoWee]

Well, it's 10:00 PM on Thursday 10/6/2011 and I still don't know what these people want - no coherent unified message has emerged. I did hear they're up to 800 arrests and counting though - certainly not a peaceful TEA Party type of crowd.

 

[Pengwuino]

Apparently this "movement" is in favor of corporate bailouts(?) - otherwise, why would the UAW participate?

http://news.yahoo.com/unions-lend-muscle-resources-wall-st-protests-070702582.html

""The great thing about Occupy Wall Street is that they have brought the focus of the entire country on the middle class majority," said George Aldro, 62, a member of Local 2325 of the United Auto Workers, as he carried the union's blue flag over his shoulder through lower Manhattan.
"We're in it together, and we're in it for the long haul.""

Good to see we bailed out the auto industry so their workers could continue to do things other than their job.

 

[chiro]

I agree to a point but the current system is set up to reward those who borrow.

Yeah that's basically what I tried to say when I waffled on :)

 

[gravenewworld]

I keep seeing these guys on the news.

Have these kids figured out why they're whining yet?

-How about unemployment over 20% for their age bracket?

-How about a $600 trillion dollar derivatives market running around almost entirely unregulated that's creating financial bubble after bubble that's also creating inflated prices that outstrip any logical supply and demand exaplanation for things like oil and the food you put on the table?

-How about the hordes of conflicts of interest we have currently employed within our own government that constantly bend the rules for big businesses and banks after what they receive are tantamount to kickbacks?

-How about the fact that not a single person at the top has been thrown in jail yet for the activities that led to the meltdown in 2008?

-How about increasingly grim financial and economic prospects for the next and upcoming generation all while being bogged down in what is looking like a never ending war?The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

 

[John Creighto]

-How about unemployment over 20% for their age bracket?

-How about a $600 trillion dollar derivatives market running around almost entirely unregulated that's creating financial bubble after bubble that's also creating inflated prices that outstrip any logical supply and demand exaplanation for things like oil and the food you put on the table?

-How about the hordes of conflicts of interest we have currently employed within our own government that constantly bend the rules for big businesses and banks after what they receive are tantamount to kickbacks?

-How about the fact that not a single person at the top has been thrown in jail yet for the activities that led to the meltdown in 2008?

-How about increasingly grim financial and economic prospects for the next and upcoming generation all while being bogged down in what is looking like a never ending war?The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

Well said :)

 

[Pengwuino]

The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

Please quote where I implied they didn't have the right to organize and protest. I've known people like this and the people who support them and this is a generation of, as has been repeated over and over, entitlement. Things like this happened when unemployment was low; they're only complaining now that they haven't been given the jobs they feel they're entitled to have. Welcome to the real world, children.

 

[WhoWee]

-How about unemployment over 20% for their age bracket?

-How about a $600 trillion dollar derivatives market running around almost entirely unregulated that's creating financial bubble after bubble that's also creating inflated prices that outstrip any logical supply and demand exaplanation for things like oil and the food you put on the table?

-How about the hordes of conflicts of interest we have currently employed within our own government that constantly bend the rules for big businesses and banks after what they receive are tantamount to kickbacks?

-How about the fact that not a single person at the top has been thrown in jail yet for the activities that led to the meltdown in 2008?

-How about increasingly grim financial and economic prospects for the next and upcoming generation all while being bogged down in what is looking like a never ending war?The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

You might want to step back and look at some of the organizers - and their recent activities leading up to this protest.
http://www.conservativeactionalerts.com/2011/08/van-jones-liberal-groups-attempt-to-counter-tea-party/

"A coalition of liberal groups seeking to create a counterbalance to the Tea Party movement have released the “Contract from the American Dream,” a response to the Tea Party-crafted “Contract from America.” The coalition includes the liberal groups MoveOn.org and Rebuild the Dream, headed by Van Jones, former special adviser for green jobs in the Obama administration"
****

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-occupy-political-20111007,0,6412329.story
"Is Occupy Wall Street a tea party for Democrats?
Some observers see Occupy Wall Street as a movement that could morph into something like a tea party for Democrats. Protesters say that's not their aim."

"The unlikely success of the largely youthful protesters in attracting media attention has prompted a certain amount of envy among existing groups on the left, whose efforts to convert public anger against Wall Street into a voting force ahead of the 2012 election have gone largely unnoticed.

Members of the American Dream Movement, a liberal coalition led by MoveOn.org that has cast itself as a counter to the tea party, have threatened to field insurgent challengers to more conservative Democrats in next year's election.
"

Next, a little history and background on Moveon.org.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/26/elec04.prez.bush.soros.reut/

""Liberal special interests, led by billionaire currency trader George Soros, are raising millions in soft, unregulated money to defeat President Bush," the Bush campaign says in an Internet posting."

"Along with Soros, the Hungarian-born financier who has pledged $12.5 million to ensure "we can write off the Bush doctrine as a temporary aberration," another chief target of Republican ire are independent political groups such as the Internet-based MoveOn.org.

The group has raised nearly $7 million to run ads attacking Bush, and launched an anti-Bush television-commercial contest which has drawn more than 1,000 submissions from the public.

Groups including MoveOn.org are banned from coordinating activities with any party or candidate. But they have gained prominence under last year's McCain-Feingold campaign finance act which ended unregulated "soft money" donations. Democrats had relied on soft money to help claw back a Republican advantage in individual donations. "
**********

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/063501c2-f02e-11e0-977b-00144feab49a.html#axzz1a4IDBoip
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/063501c2-f02e-11e0-977b-00144feab49a.html#ixzz1a4IVl3ko

Soros fails to quash insider trading conviction
By Sam Jones in London and Stanley Pignal in Brussels
Reuters
George Soros, the billionaire hedge fund manager, has lost a case at the European Court of Human Rights to have his criminal conviction for insider dealing quashed.
" my bold

 

[gravenewworld]

Please quote where I implied they didn't have the right to organize and protest. I've known people like this and the people who support them and this is a generation of, as has been repeated over and over, entitlement. Things like this happened when unemployment was low; they're only complaining now that they haven't been given the jobs they feel they're entitled to have. Welcome to the real world, children.

Entitlement?

Unemployment for young individuals is over 20% and is much worse than the national average. Maybe they are upset about not being able to find jobs at all, rather than what is being perceived (basically by old and middle aged people) as 'entitlement'.

I guess we should be thanking you baby boomers for sending this country into the toilet and ruining the prospects your kids for decades to come?

 

[Pengwuino]

Entitlement?

Unemployment for young individuals is over 20% and is much worse than the national average. Maybe they are upset about not being able to find jobs at all, rather than what is being perceived (basically by old and middle aged people) as 'entitlement'.

I guess we should be thanking you baby boomers for sending this country into the toilet and ruining the prospects your kids for decades to come?

I'm 25, just so you know. Also, again, I'm waiting for your justification for telling me to "get over it".

 

[mege]

-How about unemployment over 20% for their age bracket?

I've been unsuccessfully trying to find a list of degrees by year or something - but anecdotally, I wonder what the critical mass is for students with degrees in 'Gender Studies' and '15th Century Mongolian Literature'. A very poor life decision by a college student shouldn't be bore by the society as a whole. We're too easy on people 'oh, do what you love!' and for the most part, that should be true, but there needs to be a reality check. If you're [strike]paying[/strike] borrowing $50k/yr to go to school for a degree that isn't going to pay off - you've just made the biggest mistake of your life IMO.

-How about a $600 trillion dollar derivatives market running around almost entirely unregulated that's creating financial bubble after bubble that's also creating inflated prices that outstrip any logical supply and demand exaplanation for things like oil and the food you put on the table?

Where's all of this extra demand coming from? Thin air? (I would argue that this extra demand is coming from the constant stream of egalitarian measures by the govenrment manipulating the system, but instead - these protesters want more poor-focused subsidies and loan-forgiveness? That seems counter-intuitive.)

-How about the hordes of conflicts of interest we have currently employed within our own government that constantly bend the rules for big businesses and banks after what they receive are tantamount to kickbacks?

I agree that there is some pretty nasty government corruption, but I would also remind you that Wall Street was one of President Obama's main campaign contributors in 2008.

-How about the fact that not a single person at the top has been thrown in jail yet for the activities that led to the meltdown in 2008?

Is this actually true?

-How about increasingly grim financial and economic prospects for the next and upcoming generation all while being bogged down in what is looking like a never ending war?

What does war have to do with a financial meltdown? What bailout was because we're in the Middle East?

The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

They do have every right to protest. But they don't have the right to harass people on the street, defile local businesses, stop traffic, or assault police officers.

Noone is saying protesters don't have the right to be there, but people are questioning their motives and point beyond 'screw the system!' The union involvement just shows the ultimate hypocrasy in that.

 

[chiro]

I've known people like this and the people who support them and this is a generation of, as has been repeated over and over, entitlement.

You've bought up a good point. Part of this problem again, has to do with debt.

I'm not going to go into a super-rant again, but what I want to point out is that debt of all sorts is highly encouraged thing amongst developed nations.

Socially it seems to be the norm to take on debt, and often lots of it. It's ok for the young adults to get credit cards as soon as they turn 18 (or whatever the legal age is in province), and sometimes the parents cave into pressure and get their children cards before that age.

Now I'm not saying these people are not responsible: they are legally responsible and they (hopefully, but I'm not so sure) are conscious of their decision to enter into a serious legally binding contract, but the fact is, this social norm does have a habit of encouraging this behavior.

One way of getting people out of the entitlement complex is to teach them to work for what they want, and discouraging (or at the very least minimizing) debt will be a very big step towards that.

 

[chiro]

Entitlement?

Unemployment for young individuals is over 20% and is much worse than the national average. Maybe they are upset about not being able to find jobs at all, rather than what is being perceived (basically by old and middle aged people) as 'entitlement'.

I guess we should be thanking you baby boomers for sending this country into the toilet and ruining the prospects your kids for decades to come?

You can't just blame a whole segment of society like that.

A lot of baby boomers were regular people. They worked week in, week out. They saved a lot of their income to fund their own retirement. They were responsible citizens and they were a small part who contributed to social and economic progress of the nation.

So what happened? Well what happened is a lot of people with great power and hence great responsibility abused their position of power. They abused their role by serving their own and other close interests ahead of the peoples.

Most people are just too busy to be worried about things like this. A lot of people juggle their job, their family (husband/wife and/or kids) and their free time. Just like we trust a doctor for their medical expertise, we trust our government to look out for the needs of society and its ability to function as a whole.

Right now, people are trying to figure out how to fix it. Some people are saying that its corporate greed and bankers. Some people are saying it is government. Some are saying something else.

The thing is the social hierarchy is broken. You can't put the blame on ordinary citizens who do not have the capacity to make the kinds of decisions that help cause these messes. Joe Smith down the street can't set interest rates, or print money. Jill Smith can't introduce new bills or laws to deregulate industries.

Our options are very simple: we either find leadership that will actually work in the best interests of the people as a whole, or we abolish the hierarchy that we have now that is responsible for this level of decision making and come up with a new one. This is not a new idea, it happens periodically and if we end up with a future hierarchical organization of society in the same manner we have now, I'm betting it will happen again.

 

[Pengwuino]

The thing is the social hierarchy is broken. You can't put the blame on ordinary citizens who do not have the capacity to make the kinds of decisions that help cause these messes. Joe Smith down the street can't set interest rates, or print money. Jill Smith can't introduce new bills or laws to deregulate industries.

Our options are very simple: we either find leadership that will actually work in the best interests of the people as a whole, or we abolish the hierarchy that we have now that is responsible for this level of decision making and come up with a new one. This is not a new idea, it happens periodically and if we end up with a future hierarchical organization of society in the same manner we have now, I'm betting it will happen again.

I feel this is a total cop out (not by you, but as a society). People just do things because other people are doing it without thinking. There was a great article a few years back that looked at the housing crisis in california. They looked at the population, employment, wages, housing surplus, etc. and the fact that the housing market in california was inflated like crazy was almost screaming out at you. The people who got screwed in the housing bubble were the people who ignored the warning signs. Everyone was greedy. Housing prices were shooting up 20-50% a year and what did people do? Instead of acting responsibly and taking even a second to think about this logically, everyone tried to make a quick buck. Everyone. Everyone got into the game of trying to buy houses, fix them up, and sell them for twice the price they bought them. Then people took out equity loans because they blindly believed that their houses would be worth $10M in just a few short days, why not take out a $50k line of credit to give myself some new bathrooms and a new kitchen! Totally irresponsible.

Then the sky fell and they wonder what happened to the free money.

Joe Homeowner can't change laws, but he can (or can he?) think rationally. I always grew up knowing there was no such thing as a free lunch. Most people apparently were not taught this.

I have little sympathy for a country that thought it could get something for nothing and then when the gravy train derailed, they blamed other people for a problem they had an equal hand in creating.

 

[chiro]

Great post Pengwuino.

I talked about some of the points you made before, but you elaborated on specifics which I found to be really helpful.

It does say a lot about us though, and unfortunately it's not very positive. It's not just the US either, it is representative of most of the western world.

If there is a solution to this whole mess whether its an economic crisis, an unemployment crisis, a poverty crisis, or otherwise, it is going to require people and society as a whole to adopt new values.

I take no offence in you criticizing me in conjunction with society because I am to blame as well. I don't have any debt besides non-interest bearing student debt, and live modestly, but I have a lot of other faults. I participate in a society that generates incredible amounts of waste (garbage). I look out for my own and my families interests ahead of other peoples. I live in comfort while using large amounts of energy for things like cooking, cleaning, and entertainment.

In short I help perpetuate a system and its values that is destroying us. It doesn't matter if its a social, economic, financial, moral or any other aspect, this system we have now is not working. I don't have the answer, and I don't pretend to, but I have a feeling that our relationship with other people is a big part of it.

Personally (a big IMO here), the minute that we put aside our differences for our neighbors, that will be the time when things can change. The problem is it requires everyone to do it with absolutely no exception. Most people simply do not care about our fellow human. We are divided in so many ways. Socialism and communism don't work because it requires everyone to conform.

It's a kind of paradox (though it shouldn't be) and reminds me of the prisoners dilemma but the matrix is a 6 billion x 6 billion square matrix. What is the chance of having the situation where every body helps everyone else, or nobody rats out anyone else?

I'm not some hippy spreading the peace message while smoking a joint, but real change will require everyone, and just as you have pointed out, we all are part of the problem.

 

[Lapidus]

They do have every right to protest. But they don't have the right to harass people on the street, defile local businesses, stop traffic, or assault police officers.

Noone is saying protesters don't have the right to be there, but people are questioning their motives and point beyond 'screw the system!' The union involvement just shows the ultimate hypocrasy in that.

Here some Jon Stewart on motives and hipocrisy!

 

[daveb]

You might want to step back and look at some of the organizers - and their recent activities leading up to this protest.
http://www.conservativeactionalerts.com/2011/08/van-jones-liberal-groups-attempt-to-counter-tea-party/

Organizers? Where in the link you posted does it say that Van Jones or moveon.org are organizing it? Perhaps you should support that statement.

 

[WhoWee]

Organizers? Where in the link you posted does it say that Van Jones or moveon.org are organizing it? Perhaps you should support that statement.

Did you visit the link I provided for Van Jones? If not, try this one.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2011/ss_media1224_10_02.asp

You might want to visit this site as well?
http://front.moveon.org/

As I recall, the definition of an organizer is one who organizes. I think planning a counter TEA Party initiative qualifies Van Jones and MoveOn is clearly focused on the movement - both are influential in attracting interest and participants.

 

[WhoWee]

Organizers? Where in the link you posted does it say that Van Jones or moveon.org are organizing it? Perhaps you should support that statement.

This is a call to action by MoveOn - helping to organize the large march on October 5, 2011.

http://front.moveon.org/stand-up-rise-up-occupy-wall-street-oct-5/

"Stand Up, Rise Up! March To Wall Street Oct. 5"


It appears their efforts were successful - good turnout and lot's of participation.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/10/05/2011-10-05_occupy_wall_street_protests_unions_join_epic_march_in_downtown_manhattan.html

They estimated the crowd at 10,000 to 20,000 total.

 

[FlexGunship]

-How about unemployment over 20% for their age bracket?

-How about a $600 trillion dollar derivatives market running around almost entirely unregulated that's creating financial bubble after bubble that's also creating inflated prices that outstrip any logical supply and demand exaplanation for things like oil and the food you put on the table?

-How about the hordes of conflicts of interest we have currently employed within our own government that constantly bend the rules for big businesses and banks after what they receive are tantamount to kickbacks?

-How about the fact that not a single person at the top has been thrown in jail yet for the activities that led to the meltdown in 2008?

-How about increasingly grim financial and economic prospects for the next and upcoming generation all while being bogged down in what is looking like a never ending war?


The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

Yeah, banging drums and wearing hats made of bacon should help... definitely shouldn't be spending time building a competitive skill-set so you can take one of the incredibly few jobs available.

 

[WhoWee]

Organizers? Where in the link you posted does it say that Van Jones or moveon.org are organizing it? Perhaps you should support that statement.

I found this to be both entertaining and informative - perhaps you'll agree?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/04/joe-biden-van-jones-occupy-wall-street_n_994780.html

"Jones resigned as the president's “green jobs” czar in 2009 in the wake of controversy at least in part fueled by former Fox News personality Glenn Beck.

More recently, Jones has encouraged progressive activists to take back the momentum seized by conservative groups like the Tea Party. He has praised the Occupy movement, which began in New York City and is spreading across the country.

Asked to weigh in on the movement in conjunction with his views on the Tea Party, Biden said, "Well, you know look, I really don't know about the Van Jones group except what I read in the press. ... I think the Tea Party and the Van Jones folks are different halves of the same concern. There's an overwhelming frustration. There's a great frustration here in America that the two parties haven't been able to get very much moving. We have been in this period where there's just nothing, but fighting."

Biden continued, "And so, you have on the one end Van Jones' guys, whoever he is, talking about Wall Street." The hosts then interrupted the vice president to inform him of Jones' former role in the Obama administration, to which Biden replied, "Oh is that...alright.""

 

[FlexGunship]

I found this to be both entertaining and informative - perhaps you'll agree?

Calling Biden a politician is like calling a Pinto a car; it's true, but only in the worst way possible.

 

[MarcoD]

Yeah, banging drums and wearing hats made of bacon should help... definitely shouldn't be spending time building a competitive skill-set so you can take one of the incredibly few jobs available.

Bull. Democracy is a messy affairs. People 'know' that something is wrong, but they can't find the words or means to translate that to political action. Any discontent will always find its way to people who finally find others willing to burn the system. Suppressing that is suppressing the necessary change needed to build a better functioning and more competitive society.

Something is wrong, fix it, that's the message. For the rest I would be happy that you're living in a fully functioning free democracy.

 

[gravenewworld]

Yeah, banging drums and wearing hats made of bacon should help... definitely shouldn't be spending time building a competitive skill-set so you can take one of the incredibly few jobs available.

And if it were so easy to retrain, why is unemployment still so high? This also does nothing to address the deep rooted systemic problems plaguing our government and economy. Let me ask, have you been burned by this economy and recession? If not, then you really don't know what it is like to be laid off, unemployed for a long period of time, and unable to find work. Fortunately I still had the youth card on my side and enough time to retrain, many middle aged people do not. People claiming that those marching should just 'get a job' or should just 'retrain' are living in a box and don't see the big picture of what is really going on.

 

[FlexGunship]

Bull. Democracy is a messy affairs. People 'know' that something is wrong, but they can't find the words or means to translate that to political action. Any discontent will always find its way to people who finally find others willing to burn the system. Suppressing that is suppressing the necessary change needed to build a better functioning and more competitive society.

Something is wrong, fix it, that's the message. For the rest I would be happy that you're living in a fully functioning free democracy.

That's such an empty statement! Simply walking into a situation and saying: "yup, this is wrong, fix it" is meaningless and completely unhelpful. If there were serious ideas being exchanged then maybe something would happen. But instead of you have hippies dressed as zombies chanting slogans with no merit other than a clever rhyme.

This protest is what's wrong with America, it's not about communicating new ideas or more clever ways of organizing society, it's about a bunch of whiny kids saying: "not good enough, Dad, want more... MORE!"

I agree 100% that there are serious problems with the economy and that significant parts of the archetypal "Wall Street" are to blame and protesting is a fantastic way to draw attention to those problems. That being said, sitting on the kitchen floor garbageting your pants and crying IS NOT CONSTRUCTIVE! End of discussion.

We get it... there's a problem... got some ideas? No? Go home.

 

[FlexGunship]

And if it were so easy to retrain, why is unemployment still so high? This also does nothing to address the deep rooted systemic problems plaguing our government and economy. Let me ask, have you been burned by this economy and recession?

Yes, absolutely. Pay cuts and furloughs. I had my income slashed significantly without warning. When I was laid off for 8 weeks, know what I did?! FOUND MORE WORK. People who say there are no jobs are people who want a SPECIFIC job and won't accept anything else.

If not, then you really don't know what it is like to be laid off, unemployed for a long period of time, and unable to find work. Fortunately I still had the youth card on my side and enough time to retrain, many middle aged people do not. People claiming that those marching should just 'get a job' or should just 'retrain' are living in a box and don't see the big picture of what is really going on.

It's such bunk. I'm working on three new jobs right now AND I'm employed full time: Kuerig, CTC, and Schneider Electric are hiring. Those are just the companies that contacted ME after putting my info on Monster; I didn't make a single phone call.

If you have skills, people will seek you out. I did my time as a bus boy, as a Wal*Mart employee, as a Best Buy employee, and then as an entry level IBM employee before I applied to be a junior design engineer, and then to be a design engineer, then to be a project engineer, and then to be the technical lead for my group at my company. Now I'm interviewing for a position as chief software architect for a company and regional technical sales manager for another. You can't just jump in as a "directing art manager for the museum of flibbity-floo" right after college. YOU CAN'T! You have to prove yourself. The world isn't made by Nerf.

 

[MarcoD]

I agree 100% that there are serious problems with the economy and that significant parts of the archetypal "Wall Street" are to blame and protesting is a fantastic way to draw attention to those problems. That being said, sitting on the kitchen floor garbageting your pants and crying IS NOT CONSTRUCTIVE! End of discussion.

We get it... there's a problem... got some ideas? No? Go home.

Bull. Neo-liberalism destroyed your economy. Even you would earn more if that wouldn't have happened. Be grateful other people are willing to get off their lazy asses and are trying to prevent it from happening again.

 

[Proton Soup]

That's such an empty statement! Simply walking into a situation and saying: "yup, this is wrong, fix it" is meaningless and completely unhelpful. If there were serious ideas being exchanged then maybe something would happen. But instead of you have hippies dressed as zombies chanting slogans with no merit other than a clever rhyme.

This protest is what's wrong with America, it's not about communicating new ideas or more clever ways of organizing society, it's about a bunch of whiny kids saying: "not good enough, Dad, want more... MORE!"

I agree 100% that there are serious problems with the economy and that significant parts of the archetypal "Wall Street" are to blame and protesting is a fantastic way to draw attention to those problems. That being said, sitting on the kitchen floor garbageting your pants and crying IS NOT CONSTRUCTIVE! End of discussion.

We get it... there's a problem... got some ideas? No? Go home.

really now? what percentage of the population do you think understands the financial markets? i mean really understands, as in could navigate the system, explain how it works, etc... I'm guessing almost 0%, and that includes congressmen. almost no one, save Ron Paul, will even bicker on details. it's funny to watch him going at it with McCain in the previous election, and McCain only getting run over by a bus and deferring to his experts for decisions.

now, surely there are people out there who do understand and have some constructive ideas. but you know what? they're not getting any air time. they're being ignored. pitching a fit when you know something is wrong but don't know what to do about it is exactly the right thing to do. maybe the constructive thing to do is pick baby up off the floor and CHANGE HIS FREAKING DIAPER YOU NEGLIGENT UNFIT PARENT!

we get it, they're young, inexperienced, and uneducated. well that's not really their fault. it's also not their fault that their parents are negligent and left them to wallow in something that stinks.

 

[turbo]

Please, let's not try to change this into generational blame-games. There are a lot of boomers who have been put out of work and cannot hope to be re-hired due to their age. There are also a lot of people who are retired or are about to be retired who have watched their retirement funds (government-planned IRAs and 401Ks) crash and burn as the wealthy have gamed the system. If I could stand to be around people with all their laundry-induced and personal cosmetics fragrances, I would be in NYC with them.

It is very expensive to run for public office, these days, and the people with all the money get to select the candidates and shape their views, regardless of the interests of the populace. If buying influence in Congress could somehow be equated with bribery, K Street would be empty, and all the (country-club) prisons would be full.

 

[daveb]

You might want to step back and look at some of the organizers - and their recent activities leading up to this protestgreen jobs in the Obama administration

From this statement, you imply that the organizers of the OWS movement are Van Jones, Moveon, etc. None of the information in the links says they organized the protests.

Did you visit the link I provided for Van Jones? If not, try this one.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2011/ss_media1224_10_02.asp.

Yes, I did visit the links obviously (otherwise why would I have made the statement there was nothing that said they organized it). That one also doesn't say he organized it, it says he's organized a conference in Washington DC, not in NY, on October 3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but OWS has been in a different city for about a month.

You might want to visit this site as well?
http://front.moveon.org/

OK, that one may say they organized it, or it may not. I don't have (funtional) speakers on my computer at work.

As I recall, the definition of an organizer is one who organizes. I think planning a counter TEA Party initiative qualifies Van Jones and MoveOn is clearly focused on the movement - both are influential in attracting interest and participants.

Yes, but they didn't organize OWS, they are supporting it. To claim otherwise is a blatant lie. I helped to organize the Cleveland equivalent (just not the OWS protests), and I support the OWS protests, so I must be an organizer of the OWS protests as well by that logic. Yes, they're focused on it, I wouldn't argue that. They just didn't organize it.

This is a call to action by MoveOn - helping to organize the large march on October 5, 2011.

http://front.moveon.org/stand-up-rise-up-occupy-wall-street-oct-5/

"Stand Up, Rise Up! March To Wall Street Oct. 5"


It appears their efforts were successful - good turnout and lot's of participation.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/10/05/2011-10-05_occupy_wall_street_protests_unions_join_epic_march_in_downtown_manhattan.html

They estimated the crowd at 10,000 to 20,000 total.

This refers to joining on Oct 5, not the OWS when it started or in the intervening time.

I found this to be both entertaining and informative - perhaps you'll agree?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/04/joe-biden-van-jones-occupy-wall-street_n_994780.html

"Jones resigned as the president's “green jobs” czar in 2009 in the wake of controversy at least in part fueled by former Fox News personality Glenn Beck.

More recently, Jones has encouraged progressive activists to take back the momentum seized by conservative groups like the Tea Party. He has praised the Occupy movement, which began in New York City and is spreading across the country.

Asked to weigh in on the movement in conjunction with his views on the Tea Party, Biden said, "Well, you know look, I really don't know about the Van Jones group except what I read in the press. ... I think the Tea Party and the Van Jones folks are different halves of the same concern. There's an overwhelming frustration. There's a great frustration here in America that the two parties haven't been able to get very much moving. We have been in this period where there's just nothing, but fighting."

Biden continued, "And so, you have on the one end Van Jones' guys, whoever he is, talking about Wall Street." The hosts then interrupted the vice president to inform him of Jones' former role in the Obama administration, to which Biden replied, "Oh is that...alright.""

What am I supposed to agree with..that the people quoted above said what they said? OK, I agree they said it.

What does the support of Van Jones and Moveon have to do with the orgainzers anyway? The Kock borthers support the TEA party, but I don't fault the TEA party for that. Bringing in Van Jones and MoveOn is called a starwman argument.

 

[WhoWee]

From this statement, you imply that the organizers of the OWS movement are Van Jones, Moveon, etc. None of the information in the links says they organized the protests.


Yes, I did visit the links obviously (otherwise why would I have made the statement there was nothing that said they organized it). That one also doesn't say he organized it, it says he's organized a conference in Washington DC, not in NY, on October 3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but OWS has been in a different city for about a month.

OK, that one may say they organized it, or it may not. I don't have (funtional) speakers on my computer at work.

Yes, but they didn't organize OWS, they are supporting it. To claim otherwise is a blatant lie. I helped to organize the Cleveland equivalent (just not the OWS protests), and I support the OWS protests, so I must be an organizer of the OWS protests as well by that logic. Yes, they're focused on it, I wouldn't argue that. They just didn't organize it.



This refers to joining on Oct 5, not the OWS when it started or in the intervening time.


What am I supposed to agree with..that the people quoted above said what they said? OK, I agree they said it.

What does the support of Van Jones and Moveon have to do with the orgainzers anyway? The Kock borthers support the TEA party, but I don't fault the TEA party for that. Bringing in Van Jones and MoveOn is called a starwman argument.

I never said the TEA Party wasn't helped by organizers or promoters - and that's exactly what is happening to the Occupy Wall Street group.

It started out local and small (without a coherent message) and now the political heavy weight promoters are helping them organize bigger events - such as the 10/5/11 event. They might not have "organized" the original meeting or the core group - but the aforementioned heavies and the unions are certainly organizing and promoting activities to move them onto the national stage.

 

[ThomasT]

If buying influence in Congress could somehow be equated with bribery, K Street would be empty, and all the (country-club) prisons would be full.

No doubt. But the problem is much deeper, imo, than it might at first seem. We, meaning us humans, are mostly either already corrupted or corruptible. And that, imo, is what these mass protests, or any mass protests for that matter, are essentially about. They're protests against our shared human nature. Which doesn't seem likely to change much any time soon.

 

[WhoWee]

Yes, but they didn't organize OWS, they are supporting it. To claim otherwise is a blatant lie. I helped to organize the Cleveland equivalent (just not the OWS protests), and I support the OWS protests, so I must be an organizer of the OWS protests as well by that logic. Yes, they're focused on it, I wouldn't argue that. They just didn't organize it.

If there is an OWS event in Cleveland and you helped to make it happen - then YES daveb - you will be an organizer.

 

[mheslep]

It seems to me that to attempt to have a protest against the flaws of "shared human nature" is to announce an ignorance of human nature, akin to protesting gravity. Of course when I was younger I protested against gravity more frequently than I would like to admit.

 

[FlexGunship]

Bull. Neo-liberalism destroyed your economy. Even you would earn more if that wouldn't have happened. Be grateful other people are willing to get off their lazy asses and are trying to prevent it from happening again.

(Bolding is mine)

That's the EXACT point I'm trying to make! No one is actually doing anything constructive at all. We have 20,000 people pointing at a burning building yelling "fire." There's no mystery anymore! We get it! Something's wrong! We're past the announcement stage here. Either come up with an idea (i.e. research the issue, learn everything about the financial system, consult with experts), or just go home!

"Fire!"
"Oh, wow! You're right! What should we do?"
"Fire! Fire!"
"Yup... got it... any ideas?"
"Fire fire fire fire fire!"
"OKAY! There's a fire, now what?!"
"Fire?"

really now? what percentage of the population do you think understands the financial markets? i mean really understands, as in could navigate the system, explain how it works, etc... I'm guessing almost 0%, and that includes congressmen. almost no one, save Ron Paul, will even bicker on details. it's funny to watch him going at it with McCain in the previous election, and McCain only getting run over by a bus and deferring to his experts for decisions.

Okay, we agree on this part.

now, surely there are people out there who do understand and have some constructive ideas. but you know what? they're not getting any air time. they're being ignored. pitching a fit when you know something is wrong but don't know what to do about it is exactly the right thing to do. maybe the constructive thing to do is pick baby up off the floor and CHANGE HIS FREAKING DIAPER YOU NEGLIGENT UNFIT PARENT!

Here is where we disagree.

Being a nuisance doesn't seem to be doing anything at all, can we agree on that? The one thing this protest is NOT doing is solving any problems at all. Everyone already knows about it! Protests are for drawing attention to a problem. That part is over. We all know about it! There's nothing new coming out of this. In fact, in every video or audio clip I've heard from interviews with protesters they seem to be chanting nonsensical slogans and weird pseudo-Marxist axioms.

Just do a Google image search for the types of signs that are being held up: http://www.google.com/search?q=wall...m=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1160&bih=750

Warning: Strong Language

[URL]http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2008/09/No%20Wall%20Street%20Bailout%202.jpg[/URL]
[URL]http://ipsnews.net/fotos/wall_street_protest_final.jpg[/URL]
[URL]http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/09/25/20080925_wallst_protest_33.jpg[/URL]

we get it, they're young, inexperienced, and uneducated. well that's not really their fault. it's also not their fault that their parents are negligent and left them to wallow in something that stinks.

I'm young, inexperienced, and uneducated, too, but I've chosen to make the best of a flawed system by spending my energy learning the rules and finding ways to excel INSTEAD OF complaining that it's not fair. I'm, what, 3 years older than that crowd?!

An important protest is losing legitimacy every day that it outlives its usefulness.

EDIT: Full disclosure. I'm 26. I drive a car with 190,000 miles on it and own a condo with less than 1,000 square feet of living space. I have tons of school loans and a mortgage among other things. I have ****** healthcare since my company cut benefits, so each month I have to save a bunch of money in case of a medical emergency.

I would love to make more money than I do now. Seriously. But I'll work for it instead of protest for it.

 

[daveb]

It seems to me that to attempt to have a protest against the flaws of "shared human nature" is to announce an ignorance of human nature, akin to protesting gravity. Of course when I was younger I protested against gravity more frequently than I would like to admit.

Maddest of all is to see life as it is, and not as it ought to be - Man of La Mancha

 

[ThomasT]

It seems to me that to attempt to have a protest against the flaws of "shared human nature" is to announce an ignorance of human nature ...

I meant that that's what any mass protests amount to, ie., protests against what/who we are. Of course, we can pretend, or even believe, that we're somehow different or better than some other set of humans wrt some propensity/behavior or other. But the bottom line is that we're all essentially the same.

Nonetheless, mass protests of inequities and corruption are generally a good thing I think. That is, they're generally in response to, and serve to bring attention to, behaviors by a certain portion of the collective that would, if unchecked, significantly harm the collective by magnifying, rather than mimimizing, inequalities of justice, opportunity, etc.

 

[mege]

http://the53.tumblr.com/ - There's a counter-movement starting now. I think these sentiments are inline with what FlexGunship and several others are saying.

The demands of the OWS protests are basically 'the rich can pay for my problems' through and through, they're just using the bailouts (years later...) as an excuse to say it louder.

 

[John Creighto]

You can't just blame a whole segment of society like that.

A lot of baby boomers were regular people. They worked week in, week out. They saved a lot of their income to fund their own retirement. They were responsible citizens and they were a small part who contributed to social and economic progress of the nation.

So what happened? Well what happened is a lot of people with great power and hence great responsibility abused their position of power. They abused their role by serving their own and other close interests ahead of the peoples.

Most people are just too busy to be worried about things like this. A lot of people juggle their job, their family (husband/wife and/or kids) and their free time. Just like we trust a doctor for their medical expertise, we trust our government to look out for the needs of society and its ability to function as a whole.

Right now, people are trying to figure out how to fix it. Some people are saying that its corporate greed and bankers. Some people are saying it is government. Some are saying something else.

The thing is the social hierarchy is broken. You can't put the blame on ordinary citizens who do not have the capacity to make the kinds of decisions that help cause these messes. Joe Smith down the street can't set interest rates, or print money. Jill Smith can't introduce new bills or laws to deregulate industries.

Our options are very simple: we either find leadership that will actually work in the best interests of the people as a whole, or we abolish the hierarchy that we have now that is responsible for this level of decision making and come up with a new one. This is not a new idea, it happens periodically and if we end up with a future hierarchical organization of society in the same manner we have now, I'm betting it will happen again.

Yes people are greedy and should make rational choices but what rational choice do you make? You can either rent and risk huge rent inflation or buy a home and risk a gigantic loss in asset value. I read an article in, October 3, 2011 of MacLean’s magazine called, “What's The Use of Saving Money: how misguided efforts to boost the economy have punished the frugal and rewarded reckless spenders” pg.33. The people in this article saw housing prices go up high, so they sold their home and tried to save their money. They lost big time due to inflation and are now without a home.

Essentially, the article said the low interest rates which fueled the bubble amounted to large subsidies to the financial sector. It is refreshing to see some Austrian economics in main stream media. The article also mentioned the negative effects low interest rates can have on the spending of savers due to negative wealth effects. All and all it was a good article.

So sure, people should be sensible and not gamble based on greed but the system shouldn’t be set up to encourage this behavior.

 

[mheslep]

Way back in Ye Olde times most everyone seemed to know that the rational decision path in buying a home came about from i) buying with a payments vs savings ratio that easily carried the home should the income vanish for a year, ii) buying with 20% down so that the chance of the property value falling below the balance due on the loan was small even in disastrous times, and iii) expecting the only "investment value" one got out of a home was the ability to live in it for free for some decades after the note was paid off.

More recently the notion was that one could buy a house with nothing down and with no income on an exploding ARM loan that was acquired for the purpose of flipping the house which was expected to double in value every two years. Even more recently such notions have vanished (poof), but the Ye Olde decision path remains rational.

 

[gravenewworld]

Here is a goal for you.

Goldman Sachs takes eToys public in 1999, manages eToys into bankruptcy March 2001. Plays a trick on the court and gets the DE Law Firm MNAT to be eToys bankruptcy counsel. But wait, this cannot be, because www.MNAT.com is also (secretly) Goldman Sachs attorney in DE.

But they get away with it, Goldman Sachs took eToys public and gave eToys $16.50 per share, but the stock went above $78 = where did the rest of the money go?

eToy sued Goldman Sachs to ask that legitimate question, but MNAT, while supplying erroneous affidavits to the DE Federal Court stating it did not have any connections to Goldman Sachs, then picked a cohort in crime - Paul Traub - to prosecute Goldman Sachs.

Capone picked Frank Nitti

The NY Supreme Court case 601805/2002 lasted 8 years, but then - Miracuously, Goldman Sachs is saved - because Paul Traub failed to prosecute Goldman Sachs.
We go to find the reasons why, as MNAT has no power in NY.
So the case is closed and put entirely Under SEAL.

But MNAT was caught in the lies of telling the court they had nothing to do with Goldman Sachs and actually confessed when we deposed them on the issue February 9, 2005.
http://petters-fraud.com/MNAT_deposition_Feb9_2005.pdf

So why hasn't MNAT and Goldman Sachs been investigated and prosecuted.
Because the US Attorney at the time - Colm Connolly - was actually a partner of MNAT in 2001, the very year the crimes of perjury and fraud transpired.

But you won;t see much about that. We have been reporting it all over and Occupy marches and others started telling the story. So the Dept of Justice federal archive links began removing the proof of the crime by the UNethical Colm Connolly.

http://www.justice.gov/archive/olp/colmconnollyresume.htm

But we have copies
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6037/6216888996_bb642b6df6_m.jpg

It will only be a matter of time before they vanish too.

G-d bless the protestors...

This is exactly the type of poisoning and corruption of our 'government' that I'm talking about that is ruining this country. I'm glad people are protesting against this type of thing.

 

[WhoWee]

This is exactly the type of poisoning and corruption of our 'government' that I'm talking about that is ruining this country. I'm glad people are protesting against this type of thing.

Just in case this source isn't viewed as credible - I'll label this IMO - Goldman Sachs $1,013,091
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638

"BARACK OBAMA (D)
Top Contributors
This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle."

 

[gravenewworld]

Again, I don't know why you are singling out another dem president? Obama and Clinton are just as dirty as bush and bush? Don't you understand? Banks like Goldman Sachs have infiltrated our entire government from justice dept members like the one I posted above all the way up to the president. They have far, far too much influence over the entire system regardless of who is president.


So what happened with etoys?