News Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

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The Occupy Wall Street protests in New York have entered their second week, with approximately 5,000 participants initially gathering on September 17. Protesters are voicing their discontent over issues such as bank bailouts, the mortgage crisis, and the execution of Troy Davis, leading to 80 arrests reported by the New York Times. While some view the movement as disorganized, others argue that it highlights significant economic disparities and calls for reforms like reinstating the Glass-Steagall Act. The protests are seen as a response to rising poverty and unemployment rates in the U.S., with many participants expressing frustration over the current economic situation. The ongoing demonstrations reflect a broader sentiment of dissatisfaction with the financial system and government accountability.
  • #91
WhoWee said:
It's written down.

The video calls for revolution - do you agree?

Did you watch the whole video? Is your whole debate strategy to cherry pick words and twist them to attack a position? That's a lot like trolling.

Revolution simply means substantial change.

For instance, "The Industrial Revolution"

[PLAIN]http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/307817_10150295547107735_672262734_8281653_200917647_n.jpg
 
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  • #92
John Creighto said:
Did you watch the whole video? Is your whole debate strategy to cherry pick words and twist them to attack a position? That's a lot like trolling.

Revolution simply means substantial change.

For instance, "The Industrial Revolution"

[PLAIN]http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/307817_10150295547107735_672262734_8281653_200917647_n.jpg[/QUOTE]

Your video bounces from person to person capturing ramblings. One person said they want revolution (do you agree?), one person said they wanted just 1 banker to be arrested (do you agree?), one person said they wanted change (do you agree?) - maybe you should make a transcript from your video clips of the things you do agree with - until that happens, you and everyone else in the "movement" will be free to cherry-pick - won't you?

To accuse me of trolling is ridiculous - my point was the list posted earlier is the only one I've seen in print. If the "movement" wants to use a video of this type to be the voice - then perhaps everyone should be heard - rather than cherry-picking people from the crowd - as is the video is the opinion of the person that edited the video - nothing more.
 
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  • #93
gravenewworld said:
And it is this kind of manipulation within our government that is killing our democracy as well as our pocketbooks:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/152438-cftc-the-key-to-market-manipulation

Interesting link. It will take my a while to grasp it though. I'm fuzzy on how the market manipulation is suppose to work.
 
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  • #94
John Creighto said:
Interesting link. It will take my a while to grasp it though. I'm fuzzy on how the market manipulation is suppose to work.

The mechanism isn't what's the most important thing to take away from that link, the most important thing to take away from that link is that we actually have written proof of firms like Goldman Sachs asking for exemptions from hedging rules AND the fact that they were able to hide it from most of the government for over 15 years! It's really not surprising that the CFTC routinely granted exemptions from hedging rules to firms over the past 20 years when you see who has been running it (ex-Goldman Sachs employees, former Chicago Mercantile Exchange head hanchos, and other friends of Wall St.). It's blatant corruption of our entire system, and it is costing us all dearly through higher prices for things ranging from oil to the very food we put on our tables. And when it back fires, we the tax payers are then forced to bail them out. It's a ridiculous system, and a fraud of a 'government' that is completely poisoned and infested with special interest groups.

The scariest part is the fact that Congress itself had no idea about all of the exemptions the CFTC was granting to these firms. The letters only came to light until Congress FINALLY investigated (in either 2008 or 2009 I forget) what was going on at the CFTC (too late, after the 2008 meltdown, after the dot.com bubble, and after record oil prices/crash).

If Congress has no idea what is going on within the government and just how much huge banking firms are able to rig our system by infiltrating almost every single important regulatory agency (that is supposed to be monitoring them) with their lapdogs, what does that make big banks? I'll tell you what...it makes them more powerful than our so called elected government. It's time to take it to the streets. If our government won't protect us, then who will? We the people will.
 
  • #95
gravenewworld said:
The mechanism isn't what's the most important thing to take away from that link, the most important thing to take away from that link is that we actually have written proof of firms like Goldman Sachs asking for exemptions from hedging rules AND the fact that they were able to hide it from most of the government for over 15 years! It's really not surprising that the CFTC routinely granted exemptions from hedging rules to firms over the past 20 years when you see who has been running it (ex-Goldman Sachs employees, former Chicago Mercantile Exchange head hanchos, and other friends of Wall St.). It's blatant corruption of our entire system, and it is costing us all dearly through higher prices for things ranging from oil to the very food we put on our tables. And when it back fires, we the tax payers are then forced to bail them out. It's a ridiculous system, and a fraud of a 'government' that is completely poisoned and infested with special interest groups.

The scariest part is the fact that Congress itself had no idea about all of the exemptions the CFTC was granting to these firms. The letters only came to light until Congress FINALLY investigated (in either 2008 or 2009 I forget) what was going on at the CFTC (too late, after the 2008 meltdown, after the dot.com bubble, and after record oil prices/crash).

If Congress has no idea what is going on within the government and just how much huge banking firms are able to rig our system by infiltrating almost every single important regulatory agency (that is supposed to be monitoring them) with their lapdogs, what does that make big banks? I'll tell you what...it makes them more powerful than our so called elected government. It's time to take it to the streets. If our government won't protect us, then who will? We the people will.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory?

Have you read this?
http://2010.newsweek.com/top-10/history-altering-decisions/clinton-signs-securities-legislation.html
 
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  • #96
John Creighto said:
Did you watch the whole video? Is your whole debate strategy to cherry pick words and twist them to attack a position? That's a lot like trolling.

Revolution simply means substantial change.

For instance, "The Industrial Revolution"

[PLAIN]http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/307817_10150295547107735_672262734_8281653_200917647_n.jpg[/QUOTE]

yeah, that's used a lot in the Ron Paul material

http://www.ronpaul.com/category/ron-paul-revolution/
 
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  • #97
WhoWee said:
Sounds like a conspiracy theory?

Have you read this?
http://2010.newsweek.com/top-10/history-altering-decisions/clinton-signs-securities-legislation.html
Conspiracy theory?

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=e802998a-8ee2-4808-9649-0d9730b75ea4

"This report clearly shows that in the summer of 2008 when gas prices spiked to more than $4 a gallon, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and other speculators on Wall Street dominated the crude oil futures market causing tremendous damage to the entire economy," Sanders said. "The CFTC has kept this information hidden from the American public for nearly three years. That is an outrage.
DId you even look at the link and the letter?Also, who was running the CFTC in the 90s? That would have been Wendy Gramm, who during her tenure there deregulated/laxed the rules with regards to energy trading. Where did she end up going after her tenure? To a company that now lives in infamy--Enron. Of course, she was there when Enron was making filthy amounts of cash trading in energy after the markets for utilities in CA were deregulated (which eventually caused massive rolling blackouts and huge surges in prices).

Wendy Gramm's hubby, Phil Gramm, also pretty much single handedly killed Glass Steagall to deregulate the markets for banks and let them run away with speculative trading and gambling on derivatives. Where did Phil Gramm end up? How convenient, he ended up leaving Congress to go work for a big bank that needed billions in a tax payer bailout after deregulating everything.

And that's just 2 examples. Politics will always be corrupt, but it has gotten way out of hand over the past 20 years and it is time to put it to a stop. The middle class can crumble no further. Almost every single important regulatory agency is polluted with conflicts of interest. It's why there STILL has hardly been any legislation to regulate the derivatives market. It's why there STILL hasn't been a single banker thrown in jail for tanking the world economy in 2008. It's why we STILL will have the same problems in the future and will face financial bubble after bubble.

BTW I don't know why you are specifically mentioning Clinton. In no way at all do I think he is some saint. He made huge mistakes as well, such as signing the CFMA.
 
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  • #98
gravenewworld said:
The mechanism isn't what's the most important thing to take away from that link, the most important thing to take away from that link is that we actually have written proof of firms like Goldman Sachs asking for exemptions from hedging rules AND the fact that they were able to hide it from most of the government for over 15 years! It's really not surprising that the CFTC routinely granted exemptions from hedging rules to firms over the past 20 years when you see who has been running it (ex-Goldman Sachs employees, former Chicago Mercantile Exchange head hanchos, and other friends of Wall St.). It's blatant corruption of our entire system, and it is costing us all dearly through higher prices for things ranging from oil to the very food we put on our tables. And when it back fires, we the tax payers are then forced to bail them out. It's a ridiculous system, and a fraud of a 'government' that is completely poisoned and infested with special interest groups.

The scariest part is the fact that Congress itself had no idea about all of the exemptions the CFTC was granting to these firms. The letters only came to light until Congress FINALLY investigated (in either 2008 or 2009 I forget) what was going on at the CFTC (too late, after the 2008 meltdown, after the dot.com bubble, and after record oil prices/crash).

If Congress has no idea what is going on within the government and just how much huge banking firms are able to rig our system by infiltrating almost every single important regulatory agency (that is supposed to be monitoring them) with their lapdogs, what does that make big banks? I'll tell you what...it makes them more powerful than our so called elected government. It's time to take it to the streets. If our government won't protect us, then who will? We the people will.

What you have said is important and I won't deny that.

However having said this, people should learn that they do have a level of power within themselves to effect change without having to protest.

First of all they can stop supporting the corporations by not buying their products and get other people to do so. If one person stops buying coca cola, it's an inconvenience. If a million people suddenly stop buying it, it's a clear message. The fact is corporations need people to buy their products and services. The good part about real capitalism is that it works both ways: people that make stuff that other people want get rich, and people that don't sell anything go out of business. Use that knowledge to your advantage.

Also I know that what is happening right now with banks and corporations is largely "anti-capitalist" since they are getting an unfair advantage from the government, but I will talk about that below. With this said I still encourage what I have said above as a supplementary part of the solution.

One idea I have heard form Max Keiser that seems very effective is to look at ways to attack a companies stock price through some kind of informational campaign.

The other way to stop supporting the current banking system is to minimize your debt. Cut up your credit cards, don't get a 300,000 or half a million dollar mortgage on a standard or low wage, and don't buy crap you don't need.

These banks function because of debt, and they are leveraged at mind boggling levels. If people stopped borrowing, then all of that leveraged money would not exist, and banks wouldn't have the kind of power they have now. You minimize your debt, you put the power back in your hands, and if/when it catches on, you send a message to the system that it is time to change. When you take out a loan, a lot of the stuff on the balance sheet is created out of thin air. If you reduce this activity, you severely cripple the system, since it depends on this ability, which is why it needs debt.

These banking institutions are leveraged so much, that it is easier nowadays to do a bank-run or to bring down these institutions in a much easier fashion.

Like other people have said in this thread we need a revolution, but we need it on more than one level. One level is what I've described in my post. Another level is what other posters have described.

It requires a level of social change that is unprecedented. For most people, we can not imagine living without credit cards, mortgages, car loans, and student loans. It also requires people to take an active interest in what their government is doing, and if it is acting in the interests of the people. It requires people to (more) responsible, and to take an interest in their fellow being. It also requires that many of the social structures that we have to organize society in many important areas need to be reviewed and changed.

Finally, this also is a time to realize that no one person, or selective group will be able to accomplish this. For something that is going to be effective especially in the long term, we need everyone's output in one form or another. The experiment of letting the few lead the masses has failed every time in history, and it has not surprisingly failed again. The whole idea of having many sovereign groups versus a global superstate makes sense from this point of view.

It's an exciting time in the history of human civilization, but it is important for us, especially in this age of technology, that we mature socially as well as in other ways.
 
  • #99
Galteeth said:
Fascist?

I see mhelsp's qualifier as reasonably accurate. Are you seeing something different?
 
  • #100
gravenewworld said:
It's time to take it to the streets. If our government won't protect us, then who will? We the people will.

What does this mean?
 
  • #101
I keep seeing these guys on the news.

Have these kids figured out why they're whining yet?
 
  • #102
Pengwuino said:
I keep seeing these guys on the news.

Have these kids figured out why they're whining yet?

It's just a guess, but I think they want their share of our 401K's.:rolleyes:
 
  • #103
Apparently this "movement" is in favor of corporate bailouts(?) - otherwise, why would the UAW participate?

http://news.yahoo.com/unions-lend-muscle-resources-wall-st-protests-070702582.html

""The great thing about Occupy Wall Street is that they have brought the focus of the entire country on the middle class majority," said George Aldro, 62, a member of Local 2325 of the United Auto Workers, as he carried the union's blue flag over his shoulder through lower Manhattan.
"We're in it together, and we're in it for the long haul.""
 
  • #104
Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

You see...it's on the radar screen.
 
  • #105
Vanadium 50 said:
Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

You see...it's on the radar screen.

Where did that quote come from?
 
  • #106
Message 82.
 
  • #107
WhoWee said:
It's just a guess, but I think they want their share of our 401K's.:rolleyes:

So we're getting at the crux of the matter which I mentioned here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3539978&postcount=90

The question is, do you think the next generation will make enough to support the corporate assets you’ve invested in? Because if they can’t make enough to support themselves how are they going to support their parents. Any debt you own is only valuable if it is sustainable and the future corporate revenue stream is only worth something in there is future demand to support it.
 
  • #108
chiro said:
What you have said is important and I won't deny that.

However having said this, people should learn that they do have a level of power within themselves to effect change without having to protest.

First of all they can stop supporting the corporations by not buying their products and get other people to do so. If one person stops buying coca cola, it's an inconvenience. If a million people suddenly stop buying it, it's a clear message. The fact is corporations need people to buy their products and services. The good part about real capitalism is that it works both ways: people that make stuff that other people want get rich, and people that don't sell anything go out of business. Use that knowledge to your advantage.

Also I know that what is happening right now with banks and corporations is largely "anti-capitalist" since they are getting an unfair advantage from the government, but I will talk about that below. With this said I still encourage what I have said above as a supplementary part of the solution.

One idea I have heard form Max Keiser that seems very effective is to look at ways to attack a companies stock price through some kind of informational campaign.

The other way to stop supporting the current banking system is to minimize your debt. Cut up your credit cards, don't get a 300,000 or half a million dollar mortgage on a standard or low wage, and don't buy crap you don't need.

These banks function because of debt, and they are leveraged at mind boggling levels. If people stopped borrowing, then all of that leveraged money would not exist, and banks wouldn't have the kind of power they have now. You minimize your debt, you put the power back in your hands, and if/when it catches on, you send a message to the system that it is time to change. When you take out a loan, a lot of the stuff on the balance sheet is created out of thin air. If you reduce this activity, you severely cripple the system, since it depends on this ability, which is why it needs debt.

These banking institutions are leveraged so much, that it is easier nowadays to do a bank-run or to bring down these institutions in a much easier fashion.

Like other people have said in this thread we need a revolution, but we need it on more than one level. One level is what I've described in my post. Another level is what other posters have described.

It requires a level of social change that is unprecedented. For most people, we can not imagine living without credit cards, mortgages, car loans, and student loans. It also requires people to take an active interest in what their government is doing, and if it is acting in the interests of the people. It requires people to (more) responsible, and to take an interest in their fellow being. It also requires that many of the social structures that we have to organize society in many important areas need to be reviewed and changed.

Finally, this also is a time to realize that no one person, or selective group will be able to accomplish this. For something that is going to be effective especially in the long term, we need everyone's output in one form or another. The experiment of letting the few lead the masses has failed every time in history, and it has not surprisingly failed again. The whole idea of having many sovereign groups versus a global superstate makes sense from this point of view.

It's an exciting time in the history of human civilization, but it is important for us, especially in this age of technology, that we mature socially as well as in other ways.

I agree to a point but the current system is set up to reward those who borrow. As for a bank run…..Such tactics will be painful given the dramatic impact on the market and the quick drop in the money supply. Additionally there is nothing stopping the central banks from simply buying the bank assets to maintain liquidity. Additionally, the government has laws against hording currency and even gold for that matter.
 
  • #109
Well, it's 10:00 PM on Thursday 10/6/2011 and I still don't know what these people want - no coherent unified message has emerged. I did hear they're up to 800 arrests and counting though - certainly not a peaceful TEA Party type of crowd.
 
  • #110
WhoWee said:
Apparently this "movement" is in favor of corporate bailouts(?) - otherwise, why would the UAW participate?

http://news.yahoo.com/unions-lend-muscle-resources-wall-st-protests-070702582.html

""The great thing about Occupy Wall Street is that they have brought the focus of the entire country on the middle class majority," said George Aldro, 62, a member of Local 2325 of the United Auto Workers, as he carried the union's blue flag over his shoulder through lower Manhattan.
"We're in it together, and we're in it for the long haul.""

Good to see we bailed out the auto industry so their workers could continue to do things other than their job.
 
  • #111
John Creighto said:
I agree to a point but the current system is set up to reward those who borrow.

Yeah that's basically what I tried to say when I waffled on :)
 
  • #112
Pengwuino said:
I keep seeing these guys on the news.

Have these kids figured out why they're whining yet?

-How about unemployment over 20% for their age bracket?

-How about a $600 trillion dollar derivatives market running around almost entirely unregulated that's creating financial bubble after bubble that's also creating inflated prices that outstrip any logical supply and demand exaplanation for things like oil and the food you put on the table?

-How about the hordes of conflicts of interest we have currently employed within our own government that constantly bend the rules for big businesses and banks after what they receive are tantamount to kickbacks?

-How about the fact that not a single person at the top has been thrown in jail yet for the activities that led to the meltdown in 2008?

-How about increasingly grim financial and economic prospects for the next and upcoming generation all while being bogged down in what is looking like a never ending war?The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.
 
  • #113
gravenewworld said:
-How about unemployment over 20% for their age bracket?

-How about a $600 trillion dollar derivatives market running around almost entirely unregulated that's creating financial bubble after bubble that's also creating inflated prices that outstrip any logical supply and demand exaplanation for things like oil and the food you put on the table?

-How about the hordes of conflicts of interest we have currently employed within our own government that constantly bend the rules for big businesses and banks after what they receive are tantamount to kickbacks?

-How about the fact that not a single person at the top has been thrown in jail yet for the activities that led to the meltdown in 2008?

-How about increasingly grim financial and economic prospects for the next and upcoming generation all while being bogged down in what is looking like a never ending war?The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

Well said :)
 
  • #114
gravenewworld said:
The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

Please quote where I implied they didn't have the right to organize and protest. I've known people like this and the people who support them and this is a generation of, as has been repeated over and over, entitlement. Things like this happened when unemployment was low; they're only complaining now that they haven't been given the jobs they feel they're entitled to have. Welcome to the real world, children.
 
  • #115
gravenewworld said:
-How about unemployment over 20% for their age bracket?

-How about a $600 trillion dollar derivatives market running around almost entirely unregulated that's creating financial bubble after bubble that's also creating inflated prices that outstrip any logical supply and demand exaplanation for things like oil and the food you put on the table?

-How about the hordes of conflicts of interest we have currently employed within our own government that constantly bend the rules for big businesses and banks after what they receive are tantamount to kickbacks?

-How about the fact that not a single person at the top has been thrown in jail yet for the activities that led to the meltdown in 2008?

-How about increasingly grim financial and economic prospects for the next and upcoming generation all while being bogged down in what is looking like a never ending war?The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

You might want to step back and look at some of the organizers - and their recent activities leading up to this protest.
http://www.conservativeactionalerts.com/2011/08/van-jones-liberal-groups-attempt-to-counter-tea-party/

"A coalition of liberal groups seeking to create a counterbalance to the Tea Party movement have released the “Contract from the American Dream,” a response to the Tea Party-crafted “Contract from America.” The coalition includes the liberal groups MoveOn.org and Rebuild the Dream, headed by Van Jones, former special adviser for green jobs in the Obama administration"
****

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-occupy-political-20111007,0,6412329.story
"Is Occupy Wall Street a tea party for Democrats?
Some observers see Occupy Wall Street as a movement that could morph into something like a tea party for Democrats. Protesters say that's not their aim."


"The unlikely success of the largely youthful protesters in attracting media attention has prompted a certain amount of envy among existing groups on the left, whose efforts to convert public anger against Wall Street into a voting force ahead of the 2012 election have gone largely unnoticed.

Members of the American Dream Movement, a liberal coalition led by MoveOn.org that has cast itself as a counter to the tea party, have threatened to field insurgent challengers to more conservative Democrats in next year's election.
"


Next, a little history and background on Moveon.org.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/26/elec04.prez.bush.soros.reut/

""Liberal special interests, led by billionaire currency trader George Soros, are raising millions in soft, unregulated money to defeat President Bush," the Bush campaign says in an Internet posting."

"Along with Soros, the Hungarian-born financier who has pledged $12.5 million to ensure "we can write off the Bush doctrine as a temporary aberration," another chief target of Republican ire are independent political groups such as the Internet-based MoveOn.org.

The group has raised nearly $7 million to run ads attacking Bush, and launched an anti-Bush television-commercial contest which has drawn more than 1,000 submissions from the public.

Groups including MoveOn.org are banned from coordinating activities with any party or candidate. But they have gained prominence under last year's McCain-Feingold campaign finance act which ended unregulated "soft money" donations. Democrats had relied on soft money to help claw back a Republican advantage in individual donations. "

**********

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/063501c2-f02e-11e0-977b-00144feab49a.html#axzz1a4IDBoip
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/063501c2-f02e-11e0-977b-00144feab49a.html#ixzz1a4IVl3ko

Soros fails to quash insider trading conviction
By Sam Jones in London and Stanley Pignal in Brussels
Reuters
George Soros, the billionaire hedge fund manager, has lost a case at the European Court of Human Rights to have his criminal conviction for insider dealing quashed.
"
my bold
 
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  • #116
Pengwuino said:
Please quote where I implied they didn't have the right to organize and protest. I've known people like this and the people who support them and this is a generation of, as has been repeated over and over, entitlement. Things like this happened when unemployment was low; they're only complaining now that they haven't been given the jobs they feel they're entitled to have. Welcome to the real world, children.

Entitlement?

Unemployment for young individuals is over 20% and is much worse than the national average. Maybe they are upset about not being able to find jobs at all, rather than what is being perceived (basically by old and middle aged people) as 'entitlement'.

I guess we should be thanking you baby boomers for sending this country into the toilet and ruining the prospects your kids for decades to come?
 
  • #117
gravenewworld said:
Entitlement?

Unemployment for young individuals is over 20% and is much worse than the national average. Maybe they are upset about not being able to find jobs at all, rather than what is being perceived (basically by old and middle aged people) as 'entitlement'.

I guess we should be thanking you baby boomers for sending this country into the toilet and ruining the prospects your kids for decades to come?

I'm 25, just so you know. Also, again, I'm waiting for your justification for telling me to "get over it".
 
  • #118
gravenewworld said:
-How about unemployment over 20% for their age bracket?

I've been unsuccessfully trying to find a list of degrees by year or something - but anecdotally, I wonder what the critical mass is for students with degrees in 'Gender Studies' and '15th Century Mongolian Literature'. A very poor life decision by a college student shouldn't be bore by the society as a whole. We're too easy on people 'oh, do what you love!' and for the most part, that should be true, but there needs to be a reality check. If you're [strike]paying[/strike] borrowing $50k/yr to go to school for a degree that isn't going to pay off - you've just made the biggest mistake of your life IMO.

-How about a $600 trillion dollar derivatives market running around almost entirely unregulated that's creating financial bubble after bubble that's also creating inflated prices that outstrip any logical supply and demand exaplanation for things like oil and the food you put on the table?

Where's all of this extra demand coming from? Thin air? (I would argue that this extra demand is coming from the constant stream of egalitarian measures by the govenrment manipulating the system, but instead - these protesters want more poor-focused subsidies and loan-forgiveness? That seems counter-intuitive.)

-How about the hordes of conflicts of interest we have currently employed within our own government that constantly bend the rules for big businesses and banks after what they receive are tantamount to kickbacks?

I agree that there is some pretty nasty government corruption, but I would also remind you that Wall Street was one of President Obama's main campaign contributors in 2008.

-How about the fact that not a single person at the top has been thrown in jail yet for the activities that led to the meltdown in 2008?

Is this actually true?

-How about increasingly grim financial and economic prospects for the next and upcoming generation all while being bogged down in what is looking like a never ending war?

What does war have to do with a financial meltdown? What bailout was because we're in the Middle East?

The only people whining are those criticizing the protestors that are exercising their right to assemble according to the Constitution. Sure it may appear disorganized because the media is only focusing on the gutter kids, punks, and hippies there, but there are many other people there, and they DO have legitimate complaints AND have the right to organize and protest about it. So get over it.

They do have every right to protest. But they don't have the right to harass people on the street, defile local businesses, stop traffic, or assault police officers.

Noone is saying protesters don't have the right to be there, but people are questioning their motives and point beyond 'screw the system!' The union involvement just shows the ultimate hypocrasy in that.
 
  • #119
Pengwuino said:
I've known people like this and the people who support them and this is a generation of, as has been repeated over and over, entitlement.

You've bought up a good point. Part of this problem again, has to do with debt.

I'm not going to go into a super-rant again, but what I want to point out is that debt of all sorts is highly encouraged thing amongst developed nations.

Socially it seems to be the norm to take on debt, and often lots of it. It's ok for the young adults to get credit cards as soon as they turn 18 (or whatever the legal age is in province), and sometimes the parents cave into pressure and get their children cards before that age.

Now I'm not saying these people are not responsible: they are legally responsible and they (hopefully, but I'm not so sure) are conscious of their decision to enter into a serious legally binding contract, but the fact is, this social norm does have a habit of encouraging this behavior.

One way of getting people out of the entitlement complex is to teach them to work for what they want, and discouraging (or at the very least minimizing) debt will be a very big step towards that.
 
  • #120
gravenewworld said:
Entitlement?

Unemployment for young individuals is over 20% and is much worse than the national average. Maybe they are upset about not being able to find jobs at all, rather than what is being perceived (basically by old and middle aged people) as 'entitlement'.

I guess we should be thanking you baby boomers for sending this country into the toilet and ruining the prospects your kids for decades to come?

You can't just blame a whole segment of society like that.

A lot of baby boomers were regular people. They worked week in, week out. They saved a lot of their income to fund their own retirement. They were responsible citizens and they were a small part who contributed to social and economic progress of the nation.

So what happened? Well what happened is a lot of people with great power and hence great responsibility abused their position of power. They abused their role by serving their own and other close interests ahead of the peoples.

Most people are just too busy to be worried about things like this. A lot of people juggle their job, their family (husband/wife and/or kids) and their free time. Just like we trust a doctor for their medical expertise, we trust our government to look out for the needs of society and its ability to function as a whole.

Right now, people are trying to figure out how to fix it. Some people are saying that its corporate greed and bankers. Some people are saying it is government. Some are saying something else.

The thing is the social hierarchy is broken. You can't put the blame on ordinary citizens who do not have the capacity to make the kinds of decisions that help cause these messes. Joe Smith down the street can't set interest rates, or print money. Jill Smith can't introduce new bills or laws to deregulate industries.

Our options are very simple: we either find leadership that will actually work in the best interests of the people as a whole, or we abolish the hierarchy that we have now that is responsible for this level of decision making and come up with a new one. This is not a new idea, it happens periodically and if we end up with a future hierarchical organization of society in the same manner we have now, I'm betting it will happen again.
 

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