Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the Occupy Wall Street protests occurring in New York, which began on September 17. Participants express various perspectives on the motivations behind the protests, the socio-economic conditions in the U.S., and the implications of the movement.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the protests are a reaction to bank bailouts, the mortgage crisis, and broader social issues, including unemployment among recent graduates.
  • Others express skepticism about the coherence and effectiveness of the protests, suggesting that gathering a large group does not necessarily indicate a unified or meaningful cause.
  • A few participants argue that comparisons between the U.S. situation and protests in countries like Egypt, Spain, and Greece are misguided, claiming that the U.S. is better off overall.
  • Some express concern that the protests may not lead to any significant change, while others believe that they reflect a deeper discontent with the government and economic conditions.
  • There are discussions about the nature of poverty in the U.S., with some arguing that the situation is not as dire as portrayed by protesters, while others counter that many Americans are indeed struggling with poverty and lack of health coverage.
  • One participant likens blaming banks for poverty to blaming a gun for a shooting, suggesting that individual choices and behaviors are also to blame for economic hardships.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the motivations for the protests, the validity of comparisons to other countries, and the overall socio-economic conditions in the U.S.

Contextual Notes

Some statements reflect personal opinions and anecdotal evidence rather than comprehensive analyses. The discussion includes varying interpretations of poverty and economic conditions, with references to statistics that may not be universally accepted.

  • #871
Once again, the Tea Party rallies were day-long affairs populated by generally older people who were bused in and bused back home (thanks Koch brothers!) while the Occupy movements are ongoing long-term affairs. Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.
 
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  • #872
turbo said:
... Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.

Yep. A month ago I chimed in with this. Still looks similar to me.

dlgoff said:
I very rarely come to Politics & World Affairs and have only skimmed this thread.

Anyway, all this unrest resembles, IMO, the beginning of unrest during my college days at The Kansas University.

http://kuinfo.ku.edu/vision/"

[PLAIN]http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos/2004/12/19/protest1___t180.jpg?370a03faaa4bde2115f371a02430eb3e6a451be5[PLAIN]http://media.kansan.com/img/videothumbs/2009/12/03/DraftProtest1965__t180.jpg?370a03faaa4bde2115f371a02430eb3e6a451be5[PLAIN]http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos/2010/04/17/1970_Lawrence_025_t180.JPG?370a03faaa4bde2115f371a02430eb3e6a451be5 [/QUOTE]
 
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  • #873
OmCheeto said:
Do you live in a shoebox?

Occupy Oakland bonfire made of trash can's and junk
6a00d8341c630a53ef0162fc1b9e2c970d-640wi.jpg


Occupy Athens bonfire made of humans
[URL]http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/may2010/6/3/greek-riot-pic-reuters-389159773.jpg[/URL]

Your definition of violence is pathetic, IMHO.

Nice.:wink:
:smile:
 
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  • #874
turbo said:
... Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.

dlgoff said:
Yep. A month ago I chimed in with this. Still looks similar to me.
These are grotesque apologies for and misdirection about violence against both property and person, and unsupported conspiracy theory instigation.
 
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  • #875
turbo said:
Once again, the Tea Party rallies were day-long affairs populated by generally older people who were bused in and bused back home (thanks Koch brothers!) while the Occupy movements are ongoing long-term affairs. Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.

Can you support the Koch brothers comment? Also, why would the government led by President Obama - or the Eric Holder Justice Department or FBI or the Homeland Security departments - or ANY other federal department "have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action"? Can you support this?
 
  • #876
Conspiracy theorist have no parties or ideologies. They are united by the belief in supernatural powers of the chosen evil.
 
  • #877
The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there.
 
  • #878
turbo said:
The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there.

Not so fast turbo. You specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

I'll assume you're referring back to the days of Nixon - are you now suggesting President Obama's Administration would allow such practices? Does your "It happens all the time." comment mean now and since President Obama took office?
 
  • #879
WhoWee said:
Not so fast turbo. You specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

I'll assume you're referring back to the days of Nixon - are you now suggesting President Obama's Administration would allow such practices? Does your "It happens all the time." comment mean now and since President Obama took office?
Do you think Obama controls how local and state police and all federal agencies conduct their intelligence-gathering functions? Now, who is the conspiracy-theorist? That Obama must be really busy pulling all those strings. Really!

And the anti-war movement didn't start under Nixon. I'm assuming that you weren't too politically-aware at the time. I was.
 
  • #880
I'm old and was there too, and it was given that agents were are every meeting or rally. The conspiracy is that deep down in a hole somewhere, men with black robes see these peaceful freedom fighters and send in specially trained agent provocateurs to destroy them from the inside out. Sure, you can also stop the heart of a goat by staring at it.
 
  • #881
turbo said:
The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there.
Saying something happened before as a substitute for a complete lack of evidence in the current case is conspiracy theory 101.
 
  • #882
WhoWee said:
Does your "It happens all the time." comment mean now and since President Obama took office?
:smile: I'm sorry but this too much. Bring in Obama. :smile:
 
  • #883
turbo said:
Do you think Obama controls how local and state police and all federal agencies conduct their intelligence-gathering functions? Now, who is the conspiracy-theorist? That Obama must be really busy pulling all those strings. Really!

And the anti-war movement didn't start under Nixon. I'm assuming that you weren't too politically-aware at the time. I was.

Nixon seems to be the favorite target (rather than Johnson) - that is not the issue. I'm asking you to clarify your statement. Again, you stated:
""Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.""

Do you honestly believe this happens (federal agencies - not state or local) under the Obama Administration/Eric Holder Justice Department?
 
  • #884
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-risingThis article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.
 
  • #885
gravenewworld said:
...A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

It's more likely that the "new age" claptrap about 2012 will come true than anything productive from the current Occupy movement. I would suggest they declare victory and move indoors for the winter. This way they can keep the anarchists faction off the streets and not all die of pneumonia.
 
  • #886
mheslep said:
Saying something happened before as a substitute for a complete lack of evidence in the current case is conspiracy theory 101.

Would you like some evidence that intelligence infiltration into recent political movements is alive and well?
 
  • #887
Infiltration into opposing groups has always existed. No need to to think it has stopped now.

Infiltration by Police and FBI into political groups has been the norm for years. We probably have Homeland security looking at all groups.

TEA PARTY INFILTRATES OCCUPY LAS VEGAS:

Unfortunately, this has also allowed a Libertarian/Tea Party Militia to infiltrate and begin to dominate the movement. Jim Duensing, a Tea Party Express operative and Libertarian Congressional candidate, has become involved in the Occupy Las Vegas group and brought his like minded colleagues from his extremist fringe groups to events and meetings. These members act threatening at times and are very vocal about their right to free speech and their right to bare arms. At one point, the police were called to remove some members for participating in a threatening and aggressive manner.

http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-las-vegas/tea-party-infiltrates-occupy-las-vegas
 
  • #888
edward said:
Infiltration into opposing groups has always existed. No need to to think it has stopped now.

Infiltration by Police and FBI into political groups has been the norm for years. We probably have Homeland security looking at all groups.

TEA PARTY INFILTRATES OCCUPY LAS VEGAS:

http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-las-vegas/tea-party-infiltrates-occupy-las-vegas

Let's be clear edward - are you supporting turbo's specific claim? Turbo specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

Before you reply - please recall there were over 800 arrests in NY and the port was disrupted in Oakland. I think we need additional clarification from turbo - do you agree?
 
  • #889
WhoWee said:
Let's be clear edward - are you supporting turbo's specific claim? Turbo specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

Before you reply - please recall there were over 800 arrests in NY and the port was disrupted in Oakland. I think we need additional clarification from turbo - do you agree?
Turbo doesn't have to defend an opinion, you know that.
 
  • #890
Galteeth said:
Would you like some evidence that intelligence infiltration into recent political movements is alive and well?
Of course the police and intelligence agencies infiltrate suspected http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Portland_car_bomb_plot" foreign political movements which is part of their job. There have been dozens of sexual assaults reported, theft, arson, and thousands of arrests so any diligent police department ought to have some undercover cops around. Intelligence gathering is not the objectionable claim. I want evidence of this:
...police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.
 
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  • #891
mheslep said:
Of course the police and intelligence agencies infiltrate suspected http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Portland_car_bomb_plot" foreign political movements which is part of their job. There have been dozens of sexual assaults reported, theft, arson, and thousands of arrests so any diligent police department ought to have some undercover cops around. Intelligence gathering is not the objectionable claim. I want evidence of this:
turbo said
Please don't be too surprised...
Let's please get back on topic.
 
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  • #892
Evo said:
Turbo doesn't have to defend an opinion, you know that.
In post 871 turbo said:
"Once again, the Tea Party rallies were day-long affairs populated by generally older people who were bused in and bused back home (thanks Koch brothers!) while the Occupy movements are ongoing long-term affairs. Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."


I don't see any opinion labels - or support for the Koch brothers comment - and he didn't stop at this comment.
*******

Next, in post 877 turbo defended post 871 with this statement:my bold

"The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there."


I'm sorry Evo, but this appears (to me) to be a statement of fact asserted by turbo - not opinion?

******

In post 879 turbo continues to defend his position with this:

"Do you think Obama controls how local and state police and all federal agencies conduct their intelligence-gathering functions? Now, who is the conspiracy-theorist? That Obama must be really busy pulling all those strings. Really!

And the anti-war movement didn't start under Nixon. I'm assuming that you weren't too politically-aware at the time. I was."


This response was intended - IMO - avoid supporting earlier comments and continues his assertions regarding "intelligence-gathering functions".
****

IMO - turbo has exceeded any accepted standard of "opinion" on this one and either needs to label it as an opinion or support.
 
  • #893
gravenewworld said:
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-risingThis article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

Interesting read. Thanks for posting it. I also found his article on http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/09/19/the-old-man-and-the-sea-2011" to be pretty inspiring.

Even though these protests are being dismissed by many people, I believe this generation is only beginning to really explore their potential through an adept use of technology. They may come off as awkward and disorganized, but the Arab Spring has shown them what their generation can accomplish with technology to mobilize people in terms of physical presence.

This OWS movement will probably fail when they realize that simply gathering stubborn crowds aren't enough to dethrone an entrenched economic system. The important thing is that they learn from that eventual failure and then evolve their strategy towards the digital mobilization of income and purchase-power. That is when they'll really tap into their potential for changing the system.
 
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  • #894
gravenewworld said:
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-rising


This article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

Cool...

I will have to read that in the morning.

I was just telling someone about 20 minutes ago, that what is going on, is way past my comprehension level.

And I'm a self-proclaimed really smart person, that professes, to know nothing, in 30 plus languages...

I love my hobby.
 
  • #895
gravenewworld said:
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-rising


This article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

hmmm... You weren't kidding when you said it would take fortitude...

Just read the 1st half.

Sounds very much like what PF'ers have been saying since I've been here.

As a borderline boomer/gen x'er (like Obama), I tend to sit on the fence, and watch all of the cats and dogs fight, wondering what the hell all the commotion is about.

But I'm really tired at the moment, and haven't read the whole thing, so I'll just, right before I go to bed, post one of my silly musical interpretations, inspired by your silly article:


Henry David Thoreau said:
Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?

you let laws be your guide...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWBG1j_flrg

good night, and god bless you all. :zzz:
 
  • #896


mheslep said:
Finally, here is a great idea, only loosely related to the OWS movement, but unlike OWS it has a point, is focused, absent demagoguery, absent violence, and likely to be effective.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/11/03/can-credit-unions-make-a-success-of-bank-transfer-day/

I read up on that yesterday. I believe today is the day.

650,000 people have apparently moved their money from the big banks to local credit unions, with a net value of $4.5 billion.

According to http://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-transfer-day-marches-planned-banks-nationwide/story?id=14889051" , the number is up to 1 million people.

Then I checked out the market cap of the big banks:


Wells Fargo & Company...$133.91
JPMorgan Chase & Co...$129.05
Citigroup Inc...$88.71
Bank of America Corp...$65.77
Goldman Sachs Group, Inc...$53.13
Morgan Stanley...$32.23
Total......$502.80
amounts are in billions

Then I did the maths:

If 65,000,000 were to transfer their accounts, with a dollar for dollar correspondence with the 650k, it would amount to $450 billion.

I smiled.

Go OWS, Go!
 
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  • #897


OmCheeto said:
Go OWS, Go!
But this has nothing to do with OWS, as a matter of fact the person that suggested this on Facebook has been emphatic that it is not related to OWS.

From your link
The 27-year-old art gallery owner from Los Angeles said she had never participated in any Occupy activities, and posted the following disclaimer on her website:

"While the Bank Transfer Day movement acknowledges the enthusiasm from Anonymous and Occupy Wall Street, the Bank Transfer Day movement was neither inspired by, derived from nor organized by Anonymous or the Occupy Wall Street movement, and the Bank Transfer Day movement does not endorse any activities conducted by Anonymous or Occupy Wall Street," the Facebook page for BankTransferDay.org states.
 
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  • #898
I can't think of anything more juvenile or irresponsible than moving your money from a large bank because some random group thinks it's a good idea. If it was effective it could caused a run on the banks and trigger federal intervention. Who would want a bank panic?

The reality is big banks have more locations - they're generally more convenient. I'm looking forward to hearing horror stories of how direct deposits were lost, delayed, or otherwise "messed up" because of this nonsense.
 
  • #899
credit unions tend to be local affairs. if people transfer their money, it would likely be right down the street.

convenience? pbbttt! damn kids! the world works mighty fine on checks, and *gasp*, CASH! why should people support the very institutions that are setting up fraudulent investment schemes and crashing the economy? these firms need to burn to the ground.
 
  • #900
Proton Soup said:
credit unions tend to be local affairs. if people transfer their money, it would likely be right down the street.

convenience? pbbttt! damn kids! the world works mighty fine on checks, and *gasp*, CASH! why should people support the very institutions that are setting up fraudulent investment schemes and crashing the economy? these firms need to burn to the ground.

Doesn't Bank of America have about 6,000 locations and 250,000 employees? My guess is most of these branches offer personal and business checking and savings accounts, make car loans, home loans, business loans, and operate 6 days per week. I doubt if more than 2 -5% of all offices have anything to do with non-retail activities.
 

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