News Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

[DoggerDan]

My problem is that the OWS are bungling things. I am for Social Security, I am for student grants, I am for medicare. But these people are doing no good because they are not organized effectively. I actually feel that they are doing more harm than good.

Yours is an interesting opinion, Evo. I, too, support SS, especially having had no choice but to pay into it, so I do expect the program to make good on it's promises. I used a couple of grants to help me through college, but they went dry after less than 15% of the bills were paid. Most of the funds were split about 50-50 between what I earned and what my folks supplied, and graduation was delayed until after I could come up with more funds. Try working two jobs for a while. Sort of puts things into perspective.

I still wound up with a little bit of debt when I graduated, but I was able to pay it off in less than a year, and remain debt-free to this day.

My opinion is that the Wall-Streeters suffer not from a lack of organization, but from an acute misunderstanding of both the nature and benefits of hard work, as well as an acute lack of understanding of "caveat emptor." No one forced them to take such extravagant student loans, and cheaper options have always existed, including the option of not attending college at all. Most schools offer work-study programs. I know many people my age who've been successful despite a lack of education beyond high school, or opting for the cheaper route of Jr. College or vocational school. One of my friend's sons is a successful programmer, working for Texas Instruments right out of high school, and at roughly the same pay I made, adjusted for inflation, about 10 years into my own career path with my degrees.

It should be a long-term financial assessment, done by the students themselves, their parents, and their high school counselors. I fear we've allowed the marketers of private colleges, roughly twice as expensive as public institutions, to convince our youth of two things, both of which are not true: 1) One must have a college education to thrive in this world. 2) Sheepskins from private institutions are more marketable than those from public institutions.

Both may have some truth to them. I contend what little truth they contain is minimal, and base my experience on the fact that when I earned my own sheepskin, fully two-thirds of my contemporaries from high school did not, yet they're doing just fine. I've kept in touch with them over the years, from letters, to e-mails, and Facebook, numbering more than 200 out of a graduating class of more than 600. Most of them have found their niche in life. Some own their own businesses, most are out of debt, a few own their homes outright. Yes, some are struggling, but they're few. Most have encountered the usual hardships in life. Lots of divorces, some medical issues, a few have lost children or spouses to disease or accident.

What they are doing is either working or looking for work. What they're not doing is clamoring on the streets demanding everyone else bail them out of the situations in which they find themselves at the hands of their own bad decisions. Quite frankly, I am as amazed they made it through any institution of higher learning as I am that any institution of higher learning handed them a sheepskin.

I see the OWS movement as an indictment on the education "industry." Well, at least in part. They have other beefs, most of which are falling on the deaf ears of those of us who've scraped our way through life, some successfully, some not so much. Still, we've tried.

Given what I've gone through over the years, I have very little sympathy for these folks.

 

[Diracula]

What they are doing is either working or looking for work. What they're not doing is clamoring on the streets demanding everyone else bail them out of the situations in which they find themselves at the hands of their own bad decisions.

Is this meant to be ironic?

 

[OmCheeto]

Occupy Portland ends this weekend.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Occupy-Portland-133567753.html



When Portland can't take it anymore the movement is really over.

It was the Molotov cocktail event for me.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/11/police_arrest_man_at_occupy_po.html"
Wednesday, November 09, 2011
...
Lt. Robert King, a spokesman for the Portland Police Bureau, said officers were given a “very good description” of the man who threw the incendiary device and located him inside the Occupy Portland camp.

King said Hodson was arrested on Sunday for starting several fires inside the camp.

No one was injured in the incident, which scorched a staircase between two escalators at the center, located at 121 Southwest Salmon Street.

Oh! And what's this? He's a damn foreigner!

On Monday, Hodson told The Oregonian that he had just gotten into town over the weekend from Redding, Calif., and decided to join Occupy Portland

We really need to improve our border security.

On the bright side though, these Occupy gatherings do seem to attract the worst of the worst. Gathering them all into a two block area makes catching crooks like fishing in a barrel.

Also today...
Shawn Kimmel, 31, was arrested for disorderly conduct, possession of methamphetamine, carrying a concealed weapon after officers contacted him for his aggressive behavior at the camp. Kimmel was also arrested on an outstanding warrant for failure to appear on a criminal trespassing charge out of Clackamas County.

Another man at the camp, 20-year-old Christopher Hamblin-Rock,was booked into the Justice Center Jail on a probation violation related to a third degree theft conviction and furnishing false information to police.

 

[WhoWee]

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/111111/ows-2-deaths-at-occupy-protests-california-vermont

"OWS: 2 deaths at Occupy protests in California, Vermont
Two deaths have been reported at Occupy protests in Oakland, California, and Burlington, Vermont. Police say the incidents raise questions about the safety of the encampments"

***

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-oakland-shooting-1.html
""Tonight's incident underscores the reason why the encampment must end. The risks are too great," Quan said in a statement. "Camping is a tactic, not a solution."

The encampment, she said, has drained the financially strained city as it has been forced to pay for police protection and other services to deal with the protesters.

In recent days, Quan has come under criticism by City Council members and business owners who say she has failed to show leadership in dealing with Occupy Oakland."

 

[Bacle2]

Yours is an interesting opinion, Evo. I, too, support SS, especially having had no choice but to pay into it, so I do expect the program to make good on it's promises. I used a couple of grants to help me through college, but they went dry after less than 15% of the bills were paid. Most of the funds were split about 50-50 between what I earned and what my folks supplied, and graduation was delayed until after I could come up with more funds. Try working two jobs for a while. Sort of puts things into perspective.

I still wound up with a little bit of debt when I graduated, but I was able to pay it off in less than a year, and remain debt-free to this day.

My opinion is that the Wall-Streeters suffer not from a lack of organization, but from an acute misunderstanding of both the nature and benefits of hard work, as well as an acute lack of understanding of "caveat emptor." No one forced them to take such extravagant student loans, and cheaper options have always existed, including the option of not attending college at all. Most schools offer work-study programs. I know many people my age who've been successful despite a lack of education beyond high school, or opting for the cheaper route of Jr. College or vocational school. One of my friend's sons is a successful programmer, working for Texas Instruments right out of high school, and at roughly the same pay I made, adjusted for inflation, about 10 years into my own career path with my degrees.

It should be a long-term financial assessment, done by the students themselves, their parents, and their high school counselors. I fear we've allowed the marketers of private colleges, roughly twice as expensive as public institutions, to convince our youth of two things, both of which are not true: 1) One must have a college education to thrive in this world. 2) Sheepskins from private institutions are more marketable than those from public institutions.

Both may have some truth to them. I contend what little truth they contain is minimal, and base my experience on the fact that when I earned my own sheepskin, fully two-thirds of my contemporaries from high school did not, yet they're doing just fine. I've kept in touch with them over the years, from letters, to e-mails, and Facebook, numbering more than 200 out of a graduating class of more than 600. Most of them have found their niche in life. Some own their own businesses, most are out of debt, a few own their homes outright. Yes, some are struggling, but they're few. Most have encountered the usual hardships in life. Lots of divorces, some medical issues, a few have lost children or spouses to disease or accident.

What they are doing is either working or looking for work. What they're not doing is clamoring on the streets demanding everyone else bail them out of the situations in which they find themselves at the hands of their own bad decisions. Quite frankly, I am as amazed they made it through any institution of higher learning as I am that any institution of higher learning handed them a sheepskin.

I see the OWS movement as an indictment on the education "industry." Well, at least in part. They have other beefs, most of which are falling on the deaf ears of those of us who've scraped our way through life, some successfully, some not so much. Still, we've tried.

Given what I've gone through over the years, I have very little sympathy for these folks.

i) When you earned your degree: where the college prices as high as they are now? $5,000+ per semester is not unusual, and loans only go so far. Still, your advice on how-to I think would be welcome to many.

ii)AFAIK, a college degree is highly correlated with income, at least in today's information society, so your best bet is getting one; otherwise, your job may be automated or farned away somewhere else. Ask the steelworkers, many other unemployed factory workers today.

 

[Bacle2]

And there is also the fact that they are expected to pick themselves up by the bootstraps, while many WS firms and banks are given handouts, golden parachutes, etc. So the cries of shared effort ring hollow. Still, the criminalization of the whole movement is a disgrace.

 

[nsaspook]

It's really time to them to give up the camping idea and move indoors. It's just not working and will risk the health of many people who are honest about wanting change. I don't agree with most of what they are doing but have compassion for them as people.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...strators-Protesters-Illness-133669113.html?dr

With little sleep in cold conditions, cigarettes and drinks being passed from mouth to mouth, and few opportunities to wash hands, Zuccotti Park may now just be the best place to catch respiratory viruses, norovirus (also known as the winter vomiting virus) and tuberculosis, according to one doctor.

The damp clothing and cardboard signs wet with rain are also breeding grounds for mold. Some protesters are urinating in bottles and leaving food trash discarded throughout the campground, providing further opportunities for nastiness.

“Pretty much everything here is a good way to get sick,” Salvatore Cipolla, 23, from Long Island, told the Times. “It’ll definitely thin the herd.”

Some protesters have refused free flu shots, citing a "government conspiracy," the Times said.

 

[nsaspook]

Portland Occupy Crime stats.
http://www.flashalertnewswire.net/images/news/2011-11/3056/49225/Occupy_Stats_111109.pdf

Police blotter (with Occupy Portland reports): http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=3056

 

[WhoWee]

I checked their website and can't find a single mention of the multi-million dollar bonuses for the Fannie and Freddie executives being paid now - (comparable to the AIG average - maybe higher) - where is the outrage from the "Occupiers"?

http://occupywallst.org/

Please label the following IMO:
http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/11/fannie-freddie-bonuses-three-times-the-size-of-aig-bonuses/

"Last week, another set of bonuses for bailed-out companies got decidedly less bad press. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, to whom taxpayers have already given hundreds of billions, doled out $12.79 million in bonuses to its executives for meeting modest goals.

One could argue that there’s no outrage from the administration over the Fannie and Freddie bonuses because the total amount of bonuses is so much smaller.

But in fact, the average executive bonus is far larger.

Fannie and Freddie spent $12.79 million on 10 bonuses for an average of $1.27 million per bonus. "

***

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45245145/ns/business-real_estate/
"Regulator defends bonuses at Fannie, Freddie"

"This month, Fannie asked for $7.8 billion and Freddie requested $6 billion in extra aid to cover large quarterly losses, mostly caused by low mortgage rates reducing profits.

The House Financial Services Committee will meet Tuesday to consider a bill to stop the bonuses from being paid. Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.) have also proposed ending all bonuses for Fannie and Freddie executives."

 

[Bacle2]

Who is defending Freddie and Fannie? How about stopping the bonuses for the WS firms that were bailed out? Did not happen.

 

[WhoWee]

Who is defending Freddie and Fannie? How about stopping the bonuses for the WS firms that were bailed out? Did not happen.

Again, I read through the http://occupywallst.org/ site - no mention of Freddie and Fannie bonuses - why is that? Freddie and Fannie just requested additional $billions.

***
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-20/bailout-of-wall-street-returns-8-2-profit-to-taxpayers-beating-treasuries.html

"The U.S. government’s bailout of financial firms through the Troubled Asset Relief Program provided taxpayers with higher returns than yields paid on 30- year Treasury bonds -- enough money to fund the Securities and Exchange Commission for the next two decades.
The government has earned $25.2 billion on its investment of $309 billion in banks and insurance companies, an 8.2 percent return over two years, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. That beat U.S. Treasuries, high-yield savings accounts, money- market funds and certificates of deposit. Investing in the stock market or gold would have paid off better."

 

[Bacle2]

I have no clue of why that is; the bonuses should be stopped, but so should the WS ones have been stopped. Are you suggesting there is a bias towards Fannie and Freddie? What about the substance of the points I made, instead of bring up this?

 

[John Creighto]

Again, I read through the http://occupywallst.org/ site - no mention of Freddie and Fannie bonuses - why is that? Freddie and Fannie just requested additional $billions.

***
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-20/bailout-of-wall-street-returns-8-2-profit-to-taxpayers-beating-treasuries.html

"The U.S. government’s bailout of financial firms through the Troubled Asset Relief Program provided taxpayers with higher returns than yields paid on 30- year Treasury bonds -- enough money to fund the Securities and Exchange Commission for the next two decades.
The government has earned $25.2 billion on its investment of $309 billion in banks and insurance companies, an 8.2 percent return over two years, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. That beat U.S. Treasuries, high-yield savings accounts, money- market funds and certificates of deposit. Investing in the stock market or gold would have paid off better."

Perhaps you could suggest useful edits that the site owners could make. Maybe they'd welcome the feedback if you are willing to be constructive with your commentary.

 

[WhoWee]

I have no clue of why that is; the bonuses should be stopped, but so should the WS ones have been stopped. Are you suggesting there is a bias towards Fannie and Freddie? What about the substance of the points I made, instead of bring up this?

Why should Wall Street bonuses be stopped?

 

[WhoWee]

Perhaps you could suggest useful edits that the site owners could make. Maybe they'd welcome the feedback if you are willing to be constructive with your commentary.

The Freddie and Fannie bonuses have been in the news all week - along with their request for almost $14Billion additional. I think it's strange the Occupiers aren't outraged - no mention on their website, haven't noticed any signs or other reports of their comments - any idea why?

 

[Bacle2]

Why should Wall Street bonuses be stopped?

I'm referring to the firms that were bailed out. And why don't you address most of my main points? What is the big deal with Freddie and Fannie? Those WS firms bailed out were also receiving bonuses with taxpayer money.

 

[WhoWee]

I'm referring to the firms that were bailed out. And why don't you address most of my main points? What is the big deal with Freddie and Fannie? Those WS firms bailed out were also receiving bonuses with taxpayer money.

I posted a link that shows the Wall Street firms paid the Government back with interest. Fannie and Freddie on the other hand asked for an additional $13 or $14Billion this past week - at the same time the bonuses were announced.

This guy is basically a US Government employee.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/67292.html

"Securities and Exchange Commission documents show that Ed Haldeman, who announced last week that he is stepping down as Freddie Mac’s CEO, received a base salary of $900,000 last year yet took home an additional $2.3 million in bonus pay. Records show other Fannie and Freddie executives got similar Wall Street-style compensation packages; Fannie Mae CEO Michael Williams, for example, got $2.37 million in performance bonuses. "Again - why should Wall Street bonuses be stopped?

 

[Bacle2]

Still. Who is defending Freddie and Fannie? I never did. I have no idea of what you are trying to get at; I have made many points, and you address nothing but the issue of the bonuses. Still, Freddie and Fannie are a mix of private and public.

And, if Freddie and Fannie were to pay back their govt. loans, why can't they have bonuses, just like the WS firms did?

 

[WhoWee]

Still. Who is defending Freddie and Fannie? I never did. I have no idea of what you are trying to get at; I have made many points, and you address nothing but the issue of the bonuses. Still, Freddie and Fannie are a mix of private and public.

And, if Freddie and Fannie were to pay back their govt. loans, why can't they have bonuses, just like the WS firms did?

Freddie and Fannie requested an additional $13.8 Billion the same week they announced their bonuses. My point continues to be there is no outrage from the "movement" and I don't understand the reason - if you don't know why either it's quite understandable - it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Bacle2]

Listen: at the end of the day, there is plenty of blame to go around; both from lenders and borrowers, from WS. WS got a slap on the wrist, walk around with bonuses, and have become around 8% of the economy, which is not good, as they do not produce anything, but instead just facilitate production. What is the rational for those bonuses? What is the big deal they do/ have done to deserve that type of money and bonuses? Yes, they are a necessary part of the economy, but, what is the reason they deserve to be paid that much ? Just for producing artificial financial artifacts that help little-if-anything to the overall economy?

 

[Bacle2]

Freddie and Fannie requested an additional $13.8 Billion the same week they announced their bonuses. My point continues to be there is no outrage from the "movement" and I don't understand the reason - if you don't know why either it's quite understandable - it doesn't make any sense.

First, I don't understand the quotes in "movement"; I guess you are trying to say that they are an unruly mob with no rhyme nor reason to what they do, which, is doubtful.

In addition, you make assumptions that I do not think are warranted: i) that the person(s) who wrote the entries in the blogis/ are aware of the bonuses , and, if i) holds, that, like John Creighto said, ii) Someone there cannot address your point. It would seem a good idea to contact them and ask them to address your issue . If they do refuse or do not reply, then your point stands, otherwise, it seems like speculation on your part as to how the WS people feel about the bonuses.

 

[WhoWee]

Listen: at the end of the day, there is plenty of blame to go around; both from lenders and borrowers, from WS. WS got a slap on the wrist, walk around with bonuses, and have become around 8% of the economy, which is not good, as they do not produce anything, but instead just facilitate production. What is the rational for those bonuses? What is the big deal they do/ have done to deserve that type of money and bonuses? Yes, they are a necessary part of the economy, but, what is the reason they deserve to be paid that much ? Just for producing artificial financial artifacts that help little-if-anything to the overall economy?

The reality is nobody is forced to work with Wall Street firms. A private company can borrow from local banks and/or sell shares directly to investors. Companies can also complete mergers and acquisitions without Wall Street involvement. Basically, unless a company wants to register it's shares for listing on an exchange (regulated by the SEC) - there is no need to ever speak with a Wall Street or any other NASD* firm.



*http://www.finra.org/Newsroom/NewsReleases/2007/p018334

 

[Bacle2]

Basically, that may be an important component of the overall problem: the salaries in WS and the lack of proportionality between the degree to which they contribute to the economy (financing and "oiling"/facilitating )and the salaries they get. Those disproportionate salaries need to come from somewhere, but, given their relative contribution, it does not come from a sound, solid source.

 

[WhoWee]

First, I don't understand the quotes in "movement"; I guess you are trying to say that they are an unruly mob with no rhyme nor reason to what they do, which, is doubtful.

The term "movement" has been used throughout this thread.

 

[WhoWee]

Basically, that may be an important component of the overall problem: the salaries in WS and the lack of proportionality between the degree to which they contribute to the economy (financing and "oiling"/facilitating )and the salaries they get. Those disproportionate salaries need to come from somewhere, but, given their relative contribution, it does not come from a sound, solid source.

The term Wall Street is a catch-all to mean the securities industry - from my link:
http://www.finra.org/Newsroom/NewsReleases/2007/p018334

"NASD is the largest private sector provider of financial regulatory services, dedicated to investor protection and market integrity through effective and efficient regulation and complementary compliance and technology-based services. Almost 5,100 brokerage firms, roughly 169,000 branch offices and more than 650,000 registered securities representatives come under NASD's jurisdiction. NASD touches virtually every aspect of the securities business-from registering and educating all industry participants, to examining securities firms, enforcing both NASD rules and the federal securities laws and administering the largest dispute resolution forum for investors and securities firms. More information about NASD is available at: www.nasd.com. "

If you can support your comments it would be appreciated.

 

[Bacle2]

The term "movement" has been used throughout this thread.

Well, that is "strange", and ambiguous (given other common uses of quote marks),since it is a movement, whether one agrees with it or not. Why not use the seemingly adequate and unambiguous name 'OWS'?

 

[WhoWee]

Well, that is "strange", and ambiguous (given other common uses of quote marks),since it is a movement, whether one agrees with it or not. Why not use the seemingly adequate and unambiguous name 'OWS'?

If you google movement - this is the 4th item:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/11/occupy-movement-winter-what-next?newsfeed=true

"Occupy movement plans spring offensive as momentum stalls"

 

[Bacle2]

Are you in WS , or working in the general securities industry yourself?

EDIT:

My bad; I actually did state this as a claim, for which I offered (and do not have at this moment) support. I would like to change this into a question/comment, as in my followup posts.

END OF EDIT.
Still, maybe my post came of wrong.


; it was more of a question than a comment/statement: just what is it that the general industries do that warrants salaries and bonuses of that sort? I don't get it, and I have the impression that many others don't either. I think for anyone intent on defending them, it may be a good idea to explain this, as I believe much of the outrage comes from the fact that many have the impression that the WS salaries and compensation are not warranted, and that they have been getting preferential treatment.

I repeat, I am not making a claim; I truly do not get the reason for salaries of that size, and , IMHO they seem disproportionate to their contribution.

 

[WhoWee]

Are you in WS , or working in the general securities industry yourself?

EDIT:

My bad; I actually did state this as a claim, for which I offered (and do not have at this moment) support. I would like to change this into a question/comment, as in my followup posts.

END OF EDIT.
Still, maybe my post came of wrong.

; it was more of a question than a comment/statement: just what is it that the general industries do that warrants salaries and bonuses of that sort? I don't get it, and I have the impression that many others don't either. I think for anyone intent on defending them, it may be a good idea to explain this, as I believe much of the outrage comes from the fact that many have the impression that the WS salaries and compensation are not warranted, and that they have been getting preferential treatment.

I repeat, I am not making a claim; I truly do not get the reason for salaries of that size, and , IMHO they seem disproportionate to their contribution.

I just think it's important to remember it's the securities industry is quite large and highly regulated.
http://www.finra.org/Investors/

We also need to remember our 401k, pensions, and annuities are typically invested and managed by these member firms.

 

[John Creighto]

The Freddie and Fannie bonuses have been in the news all week - along with their request for almost $14Billion additional. I think it's strange the Occupiers aren't outraged - no mention on their website, haven't noticed any signs or other reports of their comments - any idea why?

Have you survived the people at the protesters to get their view point of this or is this simply part of your long line of attacks on their character?