On alien abduction, grays, and consciousness

[PIT2]

Not everyone sees UFOs. And I sent you examples of refutations of two main UFO experiences. Have you read them?

Yubz, however... most of the debunking itself has already been debunked. Thats what i meant when i said that one should be skeptical of both sides: do not believe everything that is written on sites that claim to offer mundane explanations, just as u shouldn't believe everything that is written on sites with outlandish explanations.

 

[PIT2]

Heres an image of the Allagash abduction tale:

http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/6373/allagashabduction8ks.jpg

Zooby mentioned it on the second page and said they may have touched a poisonous plant that caused them to black out.

 

[SGT]

Yubz, however... most of the debunking itself has already been debunked. Thats what i meant when i said that one should be skeptical of both sides: do not believe everything that is written on sites that claim to offer mundane explanations, just as u shouldn't believe everything that is written on sites with outlandish explanations.

Can you provide me with a debunking of the debunkings I posted?

 

[SGT]

Care to quote him?

Here it goes:

I was abducted in broad daylight from a McDonalds.

This was in Minnesota about 25 years ago. I got up from a nap one day and walked down to a McDonalds where I always went because all my friends hung out there. As I was standing in line to get my coffee I suddenly fell backwards for no apparent reason right onto the guy who was standing behind me. A second later I was lying on my back, back in my bed at home. But I was lying on top of the guy I had fallen onto at the MCDonalds. He had my arms pinned and he was sniggering in my ear. I was pretty much paralyzed. There was someone else in the room, too. This guy paced back and forth slowly, not looking at me or the other guy, seeming to be waiting for something to happen. He looked depressed. The guy holding me down kept sniggering in my ear and seemed to be enjoying the fact I was paralyzed. I was completely terrified, to say the least, and couldn't even struggle.

This went on only a short time, though, maybe a quarter minute at most, and then they both suddenly evaporated. I was there alone lying on my bed. I could move now, but was completely upset and in shock about what had just happened. It had all been completely vivid in all detail: I could see, hear and feel them perfectly clearly while it was going on.

I didn't learn about the phenomenon of sleep paralysis until quite a few years later, and used to just think of the incident as some kind of nightmare. Anyway, I know why "abductees" are loathe to assume they are any kind of hallucination: they seem too vivid. We have the false preconception that hallucinations are supposed to be unrealistic somehow, have some dreamlike insubstantiality that gives them away as hallucinations, but they don't. What was especially peculiar was the "set up": the part where I hallucinated walking all the way to the McDonald's when I was actually still at home in bed. I suppose I really wanted to go down there but got caught in some "interzone" where my neurotransmitters hadn't all shifted back into waking mode allowing me to hallucinate I was doing what I wanted to do.

Had it been two grey alien looking things instead of two humans, I'm sure I'd have been seriously considering that I'd been abducted by space aliens.

 

[PIT2]

Here it goes:

U forgot the part where he says that his experience is undistinguishable from an alien abduction.

 

[SGT]

U forgot the part where he says that his experience is undistinguishable from an alien abduction.

Repeating:

...
Anyway, I know why "abductees" are loathe to assume they are any kind of hallucination: they seem too vivid. We have the false preconception that hallucinations are supposed to be unrealistic somehow, have some dreamlike insubstantiality that gives them away as hallucinations, but they don't.
...

Undistinguishable in the sense that it is so vivid that you don't believe it to be an hallucination.
As I said before, I have no reason to think zoobie is lying. The same is not true with several supposed abductees, like Travis Walton.

 

[PIT2]

Can you provide me with a debunking of the debunkings I posted?

Check out this page for example:
http://www.rendlesham-incident.co.uk/explanations.htm

More info on Rendlesham and Travis Walton can be found through google

 

[PIT2]

Repeating:

Undistinguishable in the sense that it is so vivid that you don't believe it to be an hallucination.
As I said before, I have no reason to think zoobie is lying. The same is not true with several supposed abductees, like Travis Walton.

Ur failure to quote zooby leaves only one conclusion: that zooby never said his experience was indistinguishable from an alien abduction.

If u want to claim otherwise and not sound like a liar, please provide the quote.

 

[SGT]

Ur failure to quote zooby leaves only one conclusion: that zooby never said his experience was indistinguishable from an alien abduction.

If u want to claim otherwise and not sound like a liar, please provide the quote.

Now you are calling me a liar? Here is another quote from zoobie:

I agree it doesn't necessarily explain all cases, but don't forget the whole first part of my experience which was some kind of non-paralyzed hallucination of getting up and walking down to the McDonalds. I could go to Budd Hoskins and tell him my story and claim the whole thing couldn't have been sleep paralysis because of that first part, and that he should know alien abductors also sometimes look like normal humans.

I won't, though, because I don't believe that's the case. I had sleep paralysis three other times, and know it happens in degrees. Two of the other times I was merely paralyzed in my room in my bed, able to see but not move. The only distress was about not being able to move no matter how hard I tried. The third time there was someone pacing back and forth by the bed just out of my range of vision, bouncing a basketball.

You are free to believe in any nonsense you want to, but let's keep the discussion without personal offenses or I will report you to the moderator.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No alien warfare please.

 

[PIT2]

Now you are calling me a liar? Here is another quote from zoobie:

Did u just call me and Ivanseeking a liar?
Lol just kidding, enough of the liar nonsense. I never called u, zooby, or anyone else here a liar, although i doubt that many humans exist that have never told a lie. Perhaps aliens are different.

 

[Chronos]

If aliens ever had a good reason to abduct anyone, it would have been me.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That's the really funny part Chronos, they did! I have the pictures.

 

[PIT2]

Here is a paper on the mental health of abductees:

Clinical Discrepancies Between Expected and Observed Data in Patients Reporting UFO Abductions: Implications For Treatment

...Her findings demonstrate a uniform lack of the significant psychopathology which would be necessary to account for these experiences if abduction experiences do represent the psychotic or delusional states predicted by current theory. When the examiner was informed of the true reason for the selection of the subjects for this evaluation (i.e., their shared belief that they had been exposed to alien abductions), she wrote an addendum to the original report re- examining the findings of the testing in the light of the new data. In it she states: "The first and most critical question is whether our subjects' reported experiences could be accounted for strictly on the basis of psychopathy, i.e., mental disorder. The answer is a firm no. In broad terms, if the reported abductions were confabulated fantasy productions, based on what we know about psychological disorders, they could only have come from pathological liars, paranoid schizophrenics, and severely disturbed and extraordinarily rare hysteroid characters subject to fugue states and/or multiple personality shifts... It is important to note that not one of the subjects, based on test data, falls into any of these categories. Therefore, while testing can do nothing to prove the veracity of the UFO abduction reports, one can conclude that the test findings are not inconsistent with the possibility that reported UFO abductions have, in fact, occurred. In other words, there is no apparent psychological explanation for their reports."

SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS:
Although it has long been the "common wisdom" of both the professional and lay communities that anyone claiming to be the victim of abduction by UFO occupants must be seriously disturbed, thoroughly deluded or a liar, careful examination of both the reports and their reports calls this assumption into question. Clinical and psychometric investigation of abductees reveals four areas of discrepancy between the expected data and the observable phenomena and suggests further investigation.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc7.htm

Id say this blows a wide hole in the theory that abductions are delusions.

 

[SGT]

Here is a paper on the mental health of abductees:



Id say this blows a wide hole in the theory that abductions are delusions.

No, it does not! As zoobieshoe told, he had a sleep paralysis experience although he seems to be mentally sane. I don't know his age, but I assume that when he had this experience he was very young, so his subconscious mind located the experience in a McDonalds.
It is difficult to generalize, but it seems that many of the supposed abductees are believers in UFOs, like Travis Walton or had recently seen SciFi movies, like the Hills. So, if they had delusions, their experiences could naturally been of an alien contact.
The Walton case is probably better explained by fraud then by delusion and it has been suggested that the same could be true of the Hills.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Walton case is probably better explained by fraud

I would think since there were four alleged witnesses who I believe all ultimately passed a lie detector test; less one person whose results were unclear. There was never any legal evidence sufficient to file charges against those involved.

Correction:

We loaded the chainsaws and gas and oil cans into the back of the '65 International. After arranging the gas cans so they would not tip over and leak on the bumps, Mike slammed the tailgate tightly. The decrepit pickup groaned on its tired old suspension as everyone piled in. There was Dwayne by the left rear door, Jown and Steve in the middle, and Allen by the right rear door. In the front, I sat by the door, riding shotgun. Ken sat in the middle, and of course Mike was driving. The seven of us usually sat in the same place every day. Nonsmokers in front, smokers in back.

http://www.travis-walton.com/ordinary.html

 

[SGT]

I would think since there were four alleged witnesses who I believe all ultimately passed a lie detector test; less one person whose results were unclear. There was never any legal evidence sufficient to file charges against those involved.

Correction:

http://www.travis-walton.com/ordinary.html

From the site I provided:

Some of the most damning evidence that the entire case was a hoax surrounds the various polygraph examinations and the behavior of the principles involved, Duane and Travis Walton, and Mike Rogers. APRO announced on February 7, 1976, that both Travis and Duane had passed an exam given by George Pfeiffer, who worked for Tom Ezell and Associates. But that test was flawed in a number of respects: Pfeiffer allowed Walton to dictate a number of the questions he asked. While it is not uncommon for polygraphers to allow the test subjects and/or sponsors to outline the general area to be probed, allowing the subject to dictate specific questions violates the basic principles of polygraphy and should invalidate the test results. Also, Pfeiffer was relatively inexperienced, having been practicing only two years. This inexperience expressed itself when he judged Walton's "No" answer to the question "Before November 5, 1975, were you a UFO buff?" to be truthful. Walton's answer directly contradicted information provided by both his mother and brother Duane and by Walton himself during an earlier psychological examination.

Later in March of 1976, when Pfeiffer's employer Tom Ezell had reviewed the charts, he concluded that it was impossible to determine if Walton and Duane were answering the test questions truthfully. Ezell stated in a letter to Phil Klass: "Upon review of this examination, I find that to me it is not acceptable. In the first place I would not be a party to an examination in which the subject dictated the questions to be asked ... Because of the dictation of the questions to be asked, this test should be invalidated. Also, upon examining the resultant charts, I find that I cannot give an opinion one way or another" whether the subjects had been truthful or not. Yet this is the examination to which Walton refers when he states he has passed a lie detector test.

But the real "bombshell," as Klass describes it in his book, was the fact that Walton had failed an earlier polygraph examination miserably and this information had been suppressed by APRO, which had been proclaiming the Walton case "one of the most important and intriguing in the history of the UFO phenomena." This test was administered by John McCarthy, who with twenty years of experience was one of the most respected examiners in the state of Arizona. His conclusion: "Gross deception." Proponents of the Walton case never mention this examination.

Anyway, polygraphs are not reliable instruments.

 

[PIT2]

No, it does not! As zoobieshoe told, he had a sleep paralysis experience although he seems to be mentally sane.

U said it urself, he had a sleep paralysis experience, not an abduction experience.
As i pointed out on the first page, both are not and cannot be the same.

It is difficult to generalize, but it seems that many of the supposed abductees are believers in UFOs, like Travis Walton or had recently seen SciFi movies, like the Hills.

A quote from the earlier paper:

In general, the appearance and modus operandi of the aliens, their effect and procedures, their tools and interests, their crafts and physical features all tally from report to report with a high rate of concordance. (8,9,10) This intriguing fact seems impervious to the socio-economic, educational, national, or cultural background of the abductee. Similarly, whether the individual has had previous contact with the literature of abduction seems to make little difference in this vein since the reports of individuals who can be shown to have had no exposure to abduction literature also contains these common features. Skilled practitioners and investigators report in these cases that they are convinced that each of these subjects was being wholly truthful in his/her report.

The Walton case is probably better explained by fraud then by delusion and it has been suggested that the same could be true of the Hills.

No fraud has been proven in either case, and there probably wasnt any.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

From the site I provided:

Anyway, polygraphs are not reliable instruments.

Well, I have two thoughts on this point. First, I'm not about to start defending abductee stories; note that I never have. But the facts are the facts and I have always found this story to be one of the most compelling around. However, when I listen to Travis Walton tell his story, I am not impressed. Now it is easy to imagine that after all of these years the drama is more like a rehearsed story than a life experience, but when listening to him I could just as easily believe he is making it all up.

Next, I find most second hand, after the fact, upon later review stuff to be mostly nonsense. There is no end to this no matter how compelling the evidence. If the cops could have busted these guys for perpetuating a hoax, which I'm sure that they did since they didn't believe the story, you can be sure that they would have. I would bet that they wanted to nail these guys with a passion but couldn't. In either case, it has never been proven as hoax.

 

[ubavontuba]

Forum,

Let's turn this back to my original considerations.

The reason why I'm particularly interested in sleepwalking in this regard is because I've had some interesting experiences myself.

I don't generally sleepwalk, but I do occasionally when my brain is unusually stressed (like when I'm sick or when I'm under the influence of intoxicating substances).

Once, when I had a fairly serious case of viral encephalitis, I had the alien abduction dream. In my case, the "aliens" were two very serious looking gray men, dressed in rumpled gray shirts, rumpled gray trousers and they were both wearing dark sunglasses. To me they seemed rather tall, but I was only 10 at the time, so every adult seemed tall. They had "military style" short gray hair (essentially they were bald). Note: At this time, close cropped hair was very rare. You almost had to be a new military recruit to have it.

A special note of interest: This happened in the summer of 1970, many years before I can recall hearing a description of the "Grays." In fact, I still remember the tingling in my spine when I first heard abduction stories with similar "alien" descriptions.

My family was camping when this event took place, so there were lots of witnesses. We were asleep in our tent and I saw them coming through the tent to get me. It's not so much like they were coming through the walls of the tent literally though, more like the walls had no meaning to them. They appeared to be disembarking from a vessel or vehicle of some sort too (I don't remember any details of it).

They tried to grab me and I started hollering and screaming and fighting. When I came to, my father was holding me and trying to calm me down. I was wildly swinging a pillow around, with which I had apparently been trying to hit "them." To say the least, I slept the rest of the night with the flashlight on.

I feel that had this happened without witnesses, that I would feel very strongly that I'd been quite literally in a fight with real aliens that were trying to abduct me. If my father hadn't grabbed me, who knows how far the dream may have progressed (and the damage).

So, keeping in mind that this happened several years before the popularization of "alien abductions," you can probably pretty much surmise that I've never believed the stories. However, I can quite empathize with the "abductees" and believe they're telling the truth when they state it really happened (the truth being relative to them).

I do believe that my "aliens" may have been influenced by "bad guy" characters from black & white television shows, particularly creepy shows like "The Twilight Zone." I also suspect that this might be why so many of the early versions of the aliens described by others are so similar (television being such a strong cultural influence).

It took me some time to fully recover from my illness. I heard weird droning sounds off and on for weeks afterwards. I still remember calling out for help during one particularly intense episode. My Dad and a few other family members rushed into my bedroom and were quite adamant that they didn't hear any noises (maybe they were alien conspirators! LOL).

To this day, merely thinking about it makes me nervous.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The grey suits and dark glasses bit rings a bell...

Many of the really cheesy Sci-Fi movies from the 50s and 60s had the aliens taking humans against their will.

 

[SGT]

U said it urself, he had a sleep paralysis experience, not an abduction experience.
As i pointed out on the first page, both are not and cannot be the same.

It is your opinion. Many people, including zoobieshoe think that at least some of the alleged abduction experiences are in reality sleep paralysis ones

A quote from the earlier paper:

I doubt that anyone living in a country where TV shows are common is unaware of abduction literature or movies.
Remember that in her first account Betty Hill described the aliens as humanlike, with big noses like Jimmy Durante. This is consistent with SciFI movies and TV shows in the 50ths. Only several years later did Barney describe the aliens as having wraparound eyes, coincidentally a few days after The Outer Limits aired a show with such entities.

No fraud has been proven in either case, and there probably wasnt any.

And it has never been proved that they were saying the truth, so we have a tie.

 

[SGT]

...

Next, I find most second hand, after the fact, upon later review stuff to be mostly nonsense. There is no end to this no matter how compelling the evidence. If the cops could have busted these guys for perpetuating a hoax, which I'm sure that they did since they didn't believe the story, you can be sure that they would have. I would bet that they wanted to nail these guys with a passion but couldn't. In either case, it has never been proven as hoax.

I don't think the cops were too angry. I don't know how serious is it under American law. The resources expended in investigating the alleged abduction were more than compensated by the publicity the town got with the story. The newspapers that have payed for it were compensated by the increasing of sales and so have the producers of the picture Fire in the Sky.
We could say that the general public was harmed by believing in the hoax, but I doubt that someone's beliefs have been changed. Even if someone could prove that this particular event was a hoax, this would not influence the believability of other events. Believers will keep their beliefs no matter how many stories are proved to be hoaxes and skeptics will only change their minds if hard evidence is presented. The day an abductee brings an ashtray of an unknown material subtracted from a spaceship every skeptic will be forced to review his/her mind.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There was a five day [or so] man hunt. You can bet this seriously ticked off a whole bunch of people.

And it has never been proved that they were saying the truth, so we have a tie

Well, see, that's the whole problem. This isn't a race. The point is to explore these issues, not to try to prove what we already believe.

Do you believe it is possible that ETs are here or have visited in the past?

 

[SGT]

There was a five day [or so] man hunt. You can bet this seriously ticked off a whole bunch of people.
Well, see, that's the whole problem. This isn't a race. The point is to explore these issues, not to try to prove what we already believe.

Agreed! I only posted this affirmation because PIT2 assumes that if there is no proof of a hoax, it must be true. It is not so. The burden of the proof is on the claimant. In a court of law, the claimant is the prosecutor. He must provide the proofs of the culpability of the defendant. If someone presents a new theory, he/she must present proofs for the theory. It is not the mission of other scientists to prove the theory is invalid.
If someone claims that ETs are visiting Earth and abducting people, I will not believe while hard evidence is not presented.

Do you believe it is possible that ETs are here or have visited in the past?

Possible, yes. Likely, no.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, we agree more than not. Obviously PIT2 can't prove that Walton was abducted by ETs, and I don't know if that's really his intent, but for me the point of this story is that based solely on the evidence - anecdotal evidence in the form of seven witnesses - it could be true. And it does prove that not all abduction stories can be explained by dreams.

I look at the issue of probability like this: If we are but babes in the woods [in physics] and interstellar travel is possible and practical for a sufficiently advanced race of beings, then it could be inevitable that ETs would visit - or worse. Howver, if interstellar travel is limited by the laws of physics that we understand, then visiting ETs would seem a near impossibility. The problem is that we don't know how to assign this probability: How likely is it that we understand the deepest and ultimate limits of physics and space travel?

Also, in the broadest sense we must also consider something beyond ET. As has been asked: If time travel is possible, then where are the time travelers?

 

[SGT]

Well, we agree more than not. Obviously PIT2 can't prove that Walton was abducted by ETs, and I don't know if that's really his intent, but for me the point of this story is that based solely on the evidence - anecdotal evidence in the form of seven witnesses - it could be true. And it does prove that not all abduction stories can be explained by dreams.

Agreed! Some are only hoaxes. People go to extremes to gain some notoriety. If they can get some money in the process, it is even better. TV shows like The Big Brother are a good example of this.

I look at the issue of probability like this: If we are but babes in the woods [in physics] and interstellar travel is possible and practical for a sufficiently advanced race of beings, then it could be inevitable that ETs would visit - or worse. Howver, if interstellar travel is limited by the laws of physics that we understand, then visiting ETs would seem a near impossibility. The problem is that we don't know how to assign this probability: How likely is it that we understand the deepest and ultimate limits of physics and space travel?

There is a lot of ifs in that sentence. I will add another one: if a technological civilization does not self-extinguish before atteigning interstellar travel. Our civilization was on the verge of self-extinction by a nuclear war some 40 years ago. This danger seems more distant now, but with the access to nuclear technology by rogue states, the danger can become true in the next decades. Even if this does not happen, we have pollution and global warming as immediate dangers. Since ours is the only civilization we know, we cannot imagine what can happen in a distant life supporting planet.

Also, in the broadest sense we must also consider something beyond ET. As has been asked: If time travel is possible, then where are the time travelers?

Another if.

 

[PIT2]

Agreed! I only posted this affirmation because PIT2 assumes that if there is no proof of a hoax, it must be true.

I never said it must be true. I am only here to keep some balance in the discussion, because i notice a disturbing trend of backwards reasoning ("it cannot be true, so it must be a delusion/hoax, etc.") that does not do justice to the phenomenon.

The burden of the proof is on the claimant. In a court of law, the claimant is the prosecutor. He must provide the proofs of the culpability of the defendant. If someone presents a new theory, he/she must present proofs for the theory. It is not the mission of other scientists to prove the theory is invalid.
If someone claims that ETs are visiting Earth and abducting people, I will not believe while hard evidence is not presented.

Someone is not a fraud or a liar until proven guilty
- and not delusional until found to be so by an expert
In other words, the claims of fraud/delusion also have to be backed up by hard evidence.
What u and me personally believe to be true is not really relevant.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is a lot of ifs in that sentence.

That's exactly the point: We really can't have any way to know. So to assign any sort of probability is a faith statement. Therefore, to assume that all claims of encouters are false is a faith statement. In that event this discussion effectively becomes a religious one, if we take sides. We can't argue claims as false based on some predisposed sense of what's possible. That is not scientific since we clearly can't know.

 

[SGT]

That's exactly the point: We really can't have any way to know. So to assign any sort of probability is a faith statement. Therefore, to assume that all claims of encounters are false is a faith statement. In that event this discussion effectively becomes a religious one, if we take sides. We can't argue claims as false based on some predisposed sense of what's possible. That is not scientific since we clearly can't know.

Only if you take the existence of aliens as a profession of faith. In this case I agree with you.
If we consider the affirmation that ETs are visiting Earth as a scientific one, only hard evidence can be accepted. Witnessing is good for a court of law, but not for a scientific statement. Thousands of people affirm they have been abducted, some of them by benign aliens and some by hostile ones. How come that none of them was able to bring a small token from their stage on a spaceship? How is it that scientists have never had access to the alleged implants some abductees claim to have in their bodies?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Only if you take the existence of aliens as a profession of faith. In this case I agree with you.

Please explain this. I'm not taking anything on faith; you are.

Witnessing is good for a court of law, but not for a scientific statement. Thousands of people affirm they have been abducted, some of them by benign aliens and some by hostile ones. How come that none of them was able to bring a small token from their stage on a spaceship? How is it that scientists have never had access to the alleged implants some abductees claim to have in their bodies?

I never said that we have scientific proof of anything.

As for evidence, prove to me that we would know it if we saw it. Also, even though I wouldn't trust him any more than I would a used car salesman, there is a surgeon who removes alleged alien implants as a matter or practice - I should say, he is the guy to call. We have had links in the past. To the best of my knowledge, the objects removed are mix of alloys that tell us nothing.

 

[SGT]

Please explain this. I'm not taking anything on faith; you are.

That's exactly the point: We really can't have any way to know. So to assign any sort of probability is a faith statement. Therefore, to assume that all claims of encouters are false is a faith statement.

I never said that we have scientific proof of anything.

As for evidence, prove to me that we would know it if we saw it. Also, even though I wouldn't trust him any more than I would a used car salesman, there is a surgeon who removes alleged alien implants as a matter or practice - I should say, he is the guy to call. We have had links in the past. To the best of my knowledge, the objects removed are mix of alloys that tell us nothing.

Are those alloys unknown to us? I would be convinced that a material has extraterrestrial origin if we could not produce it with our current technology. Two examples come to my mind: supercrystals and carbon nanotubes. We have been able to produce tiny quantities of those materials. If I saw a plate made of supercrystal or a big array of long nanotubes, I would be forced to believe in their alien origin.

 

[ubavontuba]

Are those alloys unknown to us? I would be convinced that a material has extraterrestrial origin if we could not produce it with our current technology. Two examples come to my mind: supercrystals and carbon nanotubes. We have been able to produce tiny quantities of those materials. If I saw a plate made of supercrystal or a big array of long nanotubes, I would be forced to believe in their alien origin.

That's a very good point. Likewise, how stupid do the "aliens" have to be to implant devices that are readily found and removed?

Claims are easy to make. If I hadn't been awakened from my experience by my family, I have little doubt that I might be one of the claimants... however I'd have no proof.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I still don't understand your point in quoting me. All that I have ever said is that we can't know the probability.

Are those alloys unknown to us? I would be convinced that a material has extraterrestrial origin if we could not produce it with our current technology. Two examples come to my mind: supercrystals and carbon nanotubes. We have been able to produce tiny quantities of those materials. If I saw a plate made of supercrystal or a big array of long nanotubes, I would be forced to believe in their alien origin.

I didn't say they were proof. They are physical objects that [it appears] have been surgically removed from people who claim to have been abducted by aliens. Unless you can prove where they came from or what they are, and how they got into these people, we seem to have a mystery. You keep confusing my statement that "we don't know", with that of "this is true". Do I believe that these people have been abducted by ET? Since I can't know how likely it is that ET is really here, I have no way to judge the likelihood of abductions. Could 1:100 or 1:10,000 stories be true; can't say.

Also, some of this stuff does seem to have micro-structures.

As for nanotubes; please, do you really expect to recognize anything from beings that could be millions of years more advanced than us. It could be that we wouldn't recognize alien technology as such, even if we had it in our hands.

The point is that you can make whatever leap of faith you wish, for or against, but that doesn't make it truth.

 

[SGT]

I still don't understand your point in quoting me. All that I have ever said is that we can't know the probability.

I quoted you because you said that I was taking things on faith. You were the first to mention faith

I didn't say they were proof. They are physical objects that [it appears] have been surgically removed from people who claim to have been abducted by aliens. Unless you can prove where they came from or what they are, and how they got into these people, we seem to have a mystery. You keep confusing my statement that "we don't know", with that of "this is true". Do I believe that these people have been abducted by ET? Since I can't know how likely it is that ET is really here, I have no way to judge the likelihood of abductions. Could 1:100 or 1:10,000 stories be true; can't say.

Of course this is not proof. The only proof would be a spaceship coming to Earth with world press coverage. But if the material was unknown to us it would be strong evidence.

Also, some of this stuff does seem to have micro-structures.

Seem? Has any materials expert examined it?

As for nanotubes; please, do you really expect to recognize anything from beings that could be millions of years more advanced than us. It could be that we wouldn't recognize alien technology as such, even if we had it in our hands.

The point is that you can make whatever leap of faith you wish, for or against, but that doesn't make it truth.

I cited nanotubes and supercrystals because they are structures we would recognize and we are certain that cannot be made in large quantities on Earth. If there was a completely unknown material, the evidence would be still more overwelming.