On commutativity of convolution

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the commutativity of convolution for real measurable functions on the measure space of \(\mathbb{R}^d\) with Lebesgue measure. Participants explore the mathematical properties and implications of convolution, particularly focusing on the change of variables and the invariance of Lebesgue measure under certain transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references the definition of convolution and its well-defined nature under Lebesgue measure, questioning the relevance of invariance under the symmetry \(y \to -y\).
  • Another participant presents a series of equalities to demonstrate the commutativity of convolution, using a change of variables \(u = x - y\) and expressing the integrals accordingly.
  • A later reply seeks clarification on the change of variables used, specifically questioning the appearance of a negative sign and the treatment of the determinant in the context of higher dimensions.
  • Further elaboration is provided regarding the change of variables, including the orientation of the differential form and how it affects the integral, ultimately leading to a discussion on the cancellation of orientation effects in the context of commutativity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants engage in a detailed examination of the mathematical properties of convolution, with some expressing confusion or seeking clarification on specific steps. There is no clear consensus on the treatment of the change of variables or the implications of the symmetry discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the change of variables in higher dimensions and the potential for confusion regarding orientation and determinants. The discussion remains focused on the mathematical intricacies without resolving the underlying uncertainties.

psie
Messages
315
Reaction score
40
TL;DR
My textbook claims the convolution is commutative. I think I have found a way to motivate this, but I don't quite understand the textbook's motivation.
I quote;

Throughout this section, we consider the measure space ##(\mathbb R^d,\mathcal B(\mathbb R^d),\lambda)## [##\lambda## being Lebesgue measure]. Let ##f## and ##g## be two real measurable functions on ##\mathbb R^d##. For ##x\in\mathbb R^d##, the convolution $$f\ast g(x)=\int_{\mathbb R^d}f(x-y)g(y)\,\mathrm{d}y$$ is well defined provided $$\int_{\mathbb R^d}|f(x-y)g(y)|\,\mathrm{d}y<\infty.$$In that case, the fact that Lebesgue measure on ##\mathbb R^d## is invariant under translations and under the symmetry ##y\to -y## shows that ##g\ast f(x)## is also well defined and ##g\ast f(x)=f\ast g(x)##.

I struggle with the last sentence and putting the pieces together. I know the abstract change of variables formula for ##\nu## on ##(F,\mathcal D)## being the pushforward measure of ##\mu## on ##(E,\mathcal C)## under ##\varphi:E\to F##, i.e. ##\nu(A)=\mu(\varphi^{-1}(A))## for every ##A\in\mathcal D##. Then for any ##h:F\to\mathbb R##, $$\int_E h(\varphi(x))\,\mu(\mathrm{d}x)=\int_F h(y)\,\nu(\mathrm{d}y).$$I figured that ##h(y)=f(x-y)g(y)## and ##\varphi(x)=x-y##, with ##\mu=\lambda## and ##(E,\mathcal C)=(F,\mathcal D)=(\mathbb R^d,\mathcal B(\mathbb R^d))##. Since Lebesgue measure is invariant under translations, ##\nu## is just Lebesgue measure again. So I get indeed ##f\ast g(x)=g\ast f(x)##. But what do they mean, or what's the relevance of, the invariance under the symmetry ##y\to -y##? And how does one show Lebesgue measure is invariant under this symmetry?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I think your thoughts are way too complicated. Let ##u=x-y.##
\begin{align*}
(f\ast g)(x)&=\int_{y\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(x-y)g(y)\,dy =- \int_{x-u\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(u)g(x-u) \,du \\[6pt]
&=\int_{u-x\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(u)g(x-u) \,du =\int_{u\in \mathbb{R}^d}g(x-u)f(u) \,du\\[6pt]
&=(g\ast f)(x)
\end{align*}
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: psie
fresh_42 said:
\begin{align*}
(f\ast g)(x)&=\int_{y\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(x-y)g(y)\,dy =- \int_{x-u\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(u)g(x-u) \,du \\[6pt]
&=\int_{u-x\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(u)g(x-u) \,du =\int_{u\in \mathbb{R}^d}g(x-u)f(u) \,du\\[6pt]
&=(g\ast f)(x)
\end{align*}
Thank you. :smile:

What did you use in the second equality? In particular $$\int_{y\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(x-y)g(y)\,dy =- \int_{x-u\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(u)g(x-u) \,du.$$ Looks like a change of variables, but I'd expect one to take the absolute value of the determinant, if you look here (note, this is just one of many versions of the change of variables formula in higher dimensions). I don't see where the minus sign would come from, and how it disappears in the third equality.
 
psie said:
Thank you. :smile:

What did you use in the second equality? In particular $$\int_{y\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(x-y)g(y)\,dy =- \int_{x-u\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(u)g(x-u) \,du.$$ Looks like a change of variables, but I'd expect one to take the absolute value of the determinant, if you look here (note, this is just one of many versions of the change of variables formula in higher dimensions). I don't see where the minus sign would come from, and how it disappears in the third equality.
It is a simple change of variables: ##u=x-y## so ##\dfrac{du}{dy}=-1.## I admit that it was a bit lazy. Let me see if I can rephrase it with ##\varphi(y)=x-y## and ##d\varphi(y)=(-1)^d dy## for the ##d##-dimensional case.
\begin{align*}
(f\ast g)(x)&=\int_{y\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(x-y)g(y)\,dy \\[6pt]
&=(-1)^d \int_{x-\varphi(y)\in \mathbb{R}^d} f(\varphi(y))g(x-\varphi(y)) \,d\varphi(y) \\[6pt]
&=(-1)^d\int_{x-u\in \mathbb{R}^d}g(x-u)f(u) \,du\\[6pt]
&=(-1)^d\int_{-u\in \mathbb{R}^d}g(x-u)f(u) \,du\\[6pt]
&=\int_{u\in \mathbb{R}^d}g(x-u)f(u) \,du\\[6pt]
&=(g\ast f)(x)
\end{align*}
The transformation matrix is ##\varphi = -I## with ##\det \varphi=(-1)^d.##

The crucial points are the last two equations:

1. ##x+y## over ##\mathbb{R}^d## covers the same integration range as ##y## does over ##\mathbb{R}^d.## A shift translation by a finite fixed vector does not change the integration of infinite integration limits.

2. Orientation does change the integral, namely by a factor ##\pm 1.## However, it changes the orientation of the differential form as well as the orientation of the integration range. Both cancel each other so that we get commutativity instead of anti-commutativity. I didn't use the transformation theorem for this, only the fact that differential forms build a Grassmann algebra, i.e. that they are oriented. I was lazy once more since I should have written ##dy=dx_1\wedge \ldots \wedge dx_d## and so on.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: psie

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K