I On the relation between physics and philosophy

  • #91
I’ve been working closely with a philosopher of science in foundations of physics for the past 25 years. When we first met, I was trying to answer Mermin’s challenge (1981 Am. J. Phys. paper “Quantum mysteries for anybody”) as a typical theoretical physicist, i.e., induced spacetime metrics from uniform spaces over group structures. Really cool math, but absolutely worthless physics. His ideas and questions got me to abandon my technical approach and find a real physics answer. Answering Mermin’s challenge has been the highlight of my career and I owe it to a philosophical method of inquiry that my training in physics did not provide.
 
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  • #92
You cannot be a physicist without being a philosopher since you have a specific view of knowledge. Another physicist looks at the relation of philosophy to physics

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/physicists-are-philosophers-too/Rovelli gave a lecture at the Center of Philosophy of Natural and Social Science of the London School of Economics. It is the same content as the OP cited publication but has a different feel something a paper cannot reproduce.

https://www.artandeducation.net/classroom/video/197528/carlo-rovelli-why-physics-needs-philosophy
 
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  • #93
Philosophy may well invite the weirdos with some ulterior motive they are perusing but it is an adolescent child that refuses help when they're stuck because they must do it all themselves.
 
  • #94
Thanks gleem I read the whole article, "physicists are philosophers too" i liked it a lot. See this excerpt-
"Philosophers from the time of Plato and Aristotle have claimed that knowledge about the world can be obtained by pure thought alone. As Tyson explained, such knowledge cannot be obtained by someone sitting back in an armchair." I would never endorse working out what's true by pure thought alone but to suppose it can't ever be useful is ridiculous to me. Pure thought alone is a great tool for ruling out what is least likely.
Krauss is the author of a book called, "A Universe from Nothing", nothing begets nothing, pure thought alone tells me this.
 
  • #95
Julius Ceasar said:
Pure thought alone is a great tool for ruling out what is least likely.
And that is precisely the problem. It does no such thing. Physics you learn from what nature tells you.

For example: why, using pure thought alone, is gravity attractive and not repulsive?
 
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  • #96
As for your example I would never endorse working out what's true by pure thought alone. Getting something from nothing? Not very likely but still I would go with the evidence because the use of philosophy does not preclude using science.
 
  • #97
Julius Ceasar said:
As for your example I would never endorse working out what's true by pure thought alone. Getting something from nothing? Not very likely but still I would go with the evidence because the use of philosophy does not preclude using science.

In other words, you can only deduce from pure tought what turns out to be true when you do an experiment! So, you have no way to tell, until you do an experiment, which of your pure thoughts represents nature and which do not.

"Getting something from nothing" has no scientific meaning. Sitting in a room debating a question like that is pointless. That's not science.
 
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  • #98
PeroK said:
when you do an experiment!
what experiment?
 
  • #99
Julius Ceasar said:
what experiment?

To test your pure thought against nature.
 
  • #100
Sorry i wanted to know what experiment you could come up with to show how you can get
"a universe from nothing" as per the title of krauss's book.
 
  • #101
Julius Ceasar said:
Sorry i wanted to know what experiment you could come up with to show how you can get
"a universe from nothing" as per the title of krauss's book.

If you want to debate that specific issue, I suggest you start a thread on it.
 
  • #102
I don't think it deserves debating from a pure thought perspective which was the point.
 
  • #103
Julius Ceasar said:
I don't think it deserves debating from a pure thought perspective which was the point.
You mean that you can deduce from pure thought from the comfort of your armchair some basic criteria for cosmological theories?

And that's brilliant, because then you don't need to trouble yourself with the hard stuff like learning GR, QM or any mathematics.

Or, even concern yourself with the issue that perhaps all you're doing is just a meaningless playing with words.
 
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  • #104
@Julius Ceasar I just realized that Shakespeare got there first:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. "
 
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  • #105
Its not one or the other, i am not asking you to debate the specific issue but i am asking if you could.
 
  • #106
Julius Ceasar said:
Its not one or the other, i am not asking you to debate the specific issue but i am asking if you could.

You could debate a specific point of the theory.

Most of cosmology, however, is limited to the experiments that nature has chosen to do. We're not in a position to create a large black hole, say. Or run our own experiment that lasts a billion years.

In terms of the origin of the universe, we are even more limited in the experiments that can be performed to test a theory.

But, insofar as a theory depends on "quantum vacuum fluctations", you can test things on a smaller scale.
 
  • #107
Julius Ceasar said:
Sorry i wanted to know what experiment you could come up with to show how you can get
"a universe from nothing" as per the title of krauss's book.
One cannot test what existed before the universe existed!
 
  • #108
I say, philosophy is the ingredients capable of making a good or bad dish, something that works or not. Some Physicist just wanted leftovers nowadays. Just like having a great turkey the other day and now I'm making a sandwich out of it. I need a new good dish out from those ingredients.^^
 
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  • #109
Thanks @julcab12 and @PeroK and @Julius Ceasar for your temperance in not precipitating an end to this thread. We have probably discussed more of the philosophy physics relationship than ever before in a single thread although I have not been a member this forum long enough to know for sure. The Greeks having been essentially the founders of philosophical thinking have also produced a list of 147 aphorisms inscribed at Delphi.These saying represent basically a code of conduct to allow the continued orderly evolution of society some of which have been followed without intervention.
 
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  • #110
I decided to read a little of Copernicus's De Revoluionibus Orbium Coelestium to see whether philosophical bias in any way inspired his researches. To me his goal seems consistent with a desire to explain the apparent irregular motion of the planets and the Sun and Moon in terms the Aristotelian assumption that away from the Earth is a realm of perfection which is reflected in circular motion on celestial spheres. One can judge for oneself what his thought processes are. The entire tract of which I include a few excerpts is wonderful reading.

This is from his introduction. He gives a reason that the method of epicycles and eccentrics has been unsatisfactory.

"... those who devised the eccentrics seem thereby in large measure to have solved the problem of the apparent motions with appropriate calculations. But meanwhile they introduced a good many ideas which apparently contradict the first principles of uniform motion. Nor could they elicit or deduce from the eccentrics the principal consideration, that is, the structure of the universe and the true symmetry of its parts. On the contrary, their experience was just like some one taking from various places hands, feet, a head, and other pieces, very well depicted, it may be, but not for the representation of a single person; since these fragments would not belong to one another at all, a monster rather than a man would be put together from them. Hence in the process of demonstration or "method", as it is called, those who employed eccentrics are found either to have omitted something essential or to have admitted something extraneous and wholly irrelevant. This would not have happened to them, had they followed sound principles. For if the hypotheses assumed by them were not false, everything which follows from their hypotheses would be confirmed beyond any doubt. "

Here he states the desire to have a unified theory of the Universe.

"In the first book I set forth the entire distribution of the spheres together with the motions which I attribute to the earth, so that this book contains, as it were, the general structure of the universe. Then in the remaining books I correlate the motions of the other planets and of all the spheres with the movement of the Earth so that I may thereby determine to what extent the motions and appearances of the other planets and spheres can be saved if they are correlated with the Earth's motions."

By “saved' in the sentence above I take this to mean seen as circular motion. It seems possible that Copernicus is attempting to”save” the Aristotelian model of the Universe that models the heavens as unchangeable spheres whose only possible motion is rotation and which carry the celestial bodes along with them. These therefore must traverse circles on these spheres. Planetary motion was not apparently circular but Copernicus finds this a flaw in models of the Heavens.""THE MOTION OF THE BEAVENLY BODIES Chapter 4 IS UNIFORM, ETERNAL, AND CIRCULAR OR COMPOUNDED OF CIRCULAR MOTIONS

I shall now recall to mind that the motion of the heavenly bodies is circular, since the motion appropriate to a sphere is rotation in a circle. By this very act the sphere expresses its form as the simplest body, wherein neither beginning nor end can be found, nor can the one be distinguished from the other, while the sphere itself traverses the same points to return upon itself."

Speaking of the irregularities in planetary motion and of nearby celestial objects such as the Sun and Moon he concludes

"We must acknowledge, nevertheless, that their motions are circular or compounded of several circles, because these nonuniformities recur regularly according to a constant law. This could not happen unless the motions were circular, since only the circle can bring back the past. Thus, for example, by a composite motion of circles the sun restores to us the inequality of days and nights as well as the is four seasons of the year. Several motions are discerned herein, because a simple heavenly body cannot be moved by a single sphere nonuniformly. For this nonuniformity would have to be caused either by an inconstancy, whether imposed from without or generated from within, in the moving force or by an alteration in the revolving body. From either alternative, however, the intellect shrinks. It is improper to conceive any such defect in objects constituted in the best order.

It stands to reason, therefore, that their uniform motions appear nonuniform to us. The cause may be either that their circles have poles different [from the earth's] or that the Earth is not at the center of the circles on which they revolve. To us who watch the course of these planets from the earth, it happens that our eye does not keep the same distance from every part of their orbits, but on account of their varying distances these bodies seem larger when nearer than when farther away (as has been proved in optics). Likewise, in equal arcs of their orbits their motions will appear unequal in equal times on account of the observer's varying distance. Hence I deem it above all necessary that we should carefully scrutinize the relation of the Earth to the heavens lest, in our desire to examine the loftiest objects, we remain ignorant of things nearest to us, and by the same error attribute to the celestial bodies what belongs to the earth."

Note also that uniform circular motion is considered to be the natural motion of the sphere - and therefore for bodies moving on them - and deviations from it , what he calls “ non uniformity “ he considers “improper to conceive” in objects “constituted in the best order” So he implicitly assumes that uniform circular motion is perfect and must therefore characterize the Divine realm of celestial spheres.

Interestingly, This reminds me of the idea of inertial motion except in the celestial realm uniform circular motion he considers to be inertial rather than linear motion. This force free natural motion for celestial objects is apparently characteristic of the Heavens as opposed to the Earth which seems disturbed by non-uniform forces.
 
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  • #112
Julius Ceasar said:
Pure thought alone is a great tool for ruling out what is least likely.

The history of philosophical attempts to do this and their abject failure is strong evidence against this claim.
 
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  • #113
If it is a human activity then anything goes, just like love and war and everything for that matter. For physics, pure thought (through deduction from known concepts) is just one. And there are many philosophies as in how to attack problems and how to think about them, really mixed with art of the business derived from experience. Experimentation with ideas (using philosophy as a catalyst) coupled to shear luck can give excellent results. Combination of many techniques, And so on...
 
  • #114
lavinia said:
I decided to read a little of Copernicus's De Revoluionibus Orbium Coelestium to see whether philosophical bias in any way inspired his researches.
From De Revoluionibus Orbium Coelestium:
Nicholas Copernicus said:
This is the nature of the discipline which deals with the universe's divine revolutions, the asters' motions, sizes, distances, risings and settings, as well as the causes of the other phenomena in the sky, and which, in short, explains its whole appearance.
lavinia said:
Here is an article on Kepler's philosophical thinking.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kepler/#TheCos
From https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kepler/ :
“Physics”, as in the traditional, Aristotelian understanding of the discipline, deals with the causes of phenomena, and for Kepler that constitutes his ultimate approach to deciding between rival hypotheses
Causes, not just agreement with experiment! This is still the main reason for the use of and interest in physics: People want to cause things they deem to be beneficial. The positivistic attitude (just one of the possible philosophies motivating physicisists - in my view a mistaken one), often taken to be the modern view of what physics is about, completely ignores this.
 
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  • #115
gleem said:
The Greeks having been essentially the founders of philosophical thinking have also produced a list of 147 aphorisms inscribed at Delphi.These saying represent basically a code of conduct to allow the continued orderly evolution of society some of which have been followed without intervention.
How is this related to physics?
 
  • #116
A. Neumaier said:
How is this related to physics?

Not related to physics but to physicists and their fruitful discussions through regardful communication. Thus advancing the whole community.
 
  • #117
A. Neumaier said:
From De Revoluionibus Orbium Coelestium:From https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kepler/ :

Causes, not just agreement with experiment! This is still the main reason for the use of and interest in physics: People want to cause things they deem to be beneficial. The positivistic attitude (just one of the possible philosophies motivating physicisists - in my view a mistaken one), often taken to be the modern view of what physics is about, completely ignores this.
This is from the Wikipedia article on Aristotle's Theory of motion. The idea of causation here though not scientific in the modern sense, shows the belief in causation.

"According to Aristotle, the Sun, Moon, planets and stars – are embedded in perfectly concentric "crystal spheres" that rotate eternally at fixed rates.
...
An unmoved mover is assumed for each sphere, including a "prime mover" for the sphere of fixed stars. The unmoved movers do not push the spheres (nor could they, being immaterial and dimensionless) but are the final cause of the spheres' motion, i.e. they explain it in a way that's similar to the explanation "the soul is moved by beauty".

The idea of unperturbed natural motion seems to go back at least to stars rotating at constant angular speed on Aristotle's crystal spheres. This motion which is undisturbed by either inner changes in the circulating bodies or by outside causes is a premise that motivates Copernicus's search to describe planetary motion as uniform circular motion. Later one has Newton/Galileo's Law of Inertia which describes unperturbed motion as linear. I wonder to what extent these two scientists were influenced by the Aristotelian line of thinking. More generally one has the idea of geodesic motion for bodies in free fall. And then again there is the principle of least action.
 
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  • #118
PeterDonis said:
The history of philosophical attempts to do this and their abject failure is strong evidence against this claim.
Reading what others have written here it would seem you're not telling the full story, a recurring theme from those with the purest view of, "shut up and calculate". History has shown where fanatical thinking has got us.
 
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  • #119
I must say that I don't understand the examples for the positive role of philosophy, given in this thread or in the paper. For instance general relativity. In my opinion what was important was a clear physics problem, find a relativistic theory of gravity with Newton's gravity as a limit, and a clear physical principle (the equivalence principle). What played a positive role was the work of Minkowski, the geometers from Riemann to Levi-Civita and Ricci, the collaboration with Grossman, and the competition/discussions with Hilbert. None of this is philosophy. The philosophical parts like the Mach principle or the hole argument seem to me that held Einstein back. In many texts they are not even mentioned. The same is true for the development of the theory. Problem solving was what made progress possible. The philosophical musings were never productive.

In fact general relativity is a good example where philosophy is not needed and was an obstacle. This is also true when it comes to learning the theory.
 
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  • #120
I think philosophy wants to work with physics but physics does not want to work with philosophy, perhaps physics has had a few too many bad experiences and that's all it takes. I think banning bad science is a good idea but be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
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