I On the relation between physics and philosophy

  • #151
Demystifier said:
Blackboards are not very useful for discussing philosophy. If you search for youtube lectures on math, physics and philosophy, only the ones on math and physics will often be on blackboards.
True, but for an article like this why pose in front of that board (or choose that picture if it wasn't taken for the ocasion). Why not a board with the word philosophy! Or an empty board :smile:
 
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  • #152
martinbn said:
Philosophy has been around for more than 2000 years and none of its problems are resolved.
No. The solved problems of philosophy have matured into solved problems of sciences.

That's why philosophy is called the mother of all sciences. As long as concepts are ambiguous or mixed up philosophy is essential.

Only where the foundational problems are solved it is no longer needed.
 
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  • #153
martinbn said:
Philosophers argue over the same things as they always have.
Not true. Today some philosophers, for instance, work on the measurement problem in QM. Of course, I'm talking about philosophers with good knowledge of QM.

martinbn said:
Also, no one stops physicists to use philosophy
Not true. The editors and reviewers in mainstream journals often reject papers because they use some philosophical arguments.

martinbn said:
Why is the author not using philosophy to solve some of the problems? Or is she, and which problems has she cracked?
She is, see e.g. http://de.arxiv.org/abs/1912.06462
 
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  • #154
A. Neumaier said:
No. The solved problems of philosophy have matured into sciences.

That's why philosophy is called the mother of all sciences. As long as concepts are ambiguous or mixed up philosophy is essential.

Only where the foundational problems are solved it is no longer needed.
Like what? Which problems do you have in mind?
 
  • #155
Demystifier said:
Not true. Today some philosophers, for instance, work on the measurement problem in QM. Of course, I'm talking about philosophers with good knowledge of QM.
You are right. There new problems the philosophers argue about. But none of them is solved. My point was that it is just lexical analysis with no progress. (And adding new topics.)
Not true. The editors and reviewers in mainstream journals often reject papers because they use some philosophical arguments.
But do any of those papers actually solve any problems?
There is very little in this paper, and it isn't new. It also doesn't solve the problem, or does it?
 
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  • #156
martinbn said:
Like what? Which problems do you have in mind?
Mathematics, astronomy, physics, chemistry, geology, biology, pharmacy, ...

All started as part of philosophy and matured into separate disciplines that, on the whole, can stand on their own. But the foundations of quantum physics has not yet reached that stage.
 
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  • #157
A. Neumaier said:
Mathematics, astronomy, physics, chemistry, geology, biology, pharmacy, ...

All started as part of philosophy and matured into separate disciplines that, on the whole, can stand on their own. But the foundations of quantum physics has not yet reached that stage.
You said that the solved problems of philosophy matured into sciences. My question wasn't which sciences. It was which problems? And to clarify this, which problems were solved by philosophy to become sciences?
 
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  • #158
martinbn said:
You said that the solved problems of philosophy matured into sciences. My question wasn't which sciences. It was which problems? And to clarify this, which problems were solved by philosophy to become sciences?
I should have been more precise. let me rephrase:

The parts of philosophy whose problems were solved by making the corresponding concepts and methods of investigation precise enough matured and became sciences.

Problems like: what are numbers? what is length? what is motion? what is permanent? what is change? what causes motion? what are elements?
 
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  • #159
A. Neumaier said:
I should have been more precise. let me rephrase:

The parts of philosophy whose problems were solved by making the corresponding concepts and methods of investigation precise enough matured and became sciences.

Problems like: what are numbers? what is length? what is motion? what is permanent? what is change? what causes motion? what are elements?
This is consistent with what I wrote. I said that philosophy cannot solve problems. You are saying that some problems couldn't be solved by philosophy, and new methods for solving problems were invented (the corresponding sciences).
 
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  • #160
martinbn said:
This is consistent with what I wrote. I said that philosophy cannot solve problems. You are saying that some problems couldn't be solved by philosophy, and new methods for solving problems were invented (the corresponding sciences).
No, you put your words into my mouth, making them sound very differently.

Some problems were solved by philosophy, and each time, upon gradually recognizing the power of the resulting methods, a corresponding part of philosophy gradually separated from philosophy and turned into a new science. This can be checked in every case.

It is very different from the claim that a new science arrived from nowhere and produced new methods for solving problems.
 
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  • #161
Unfortunately, most posters here who criticize philosophy immediately also betray their complete lack of understanding what philosophy is, how it is practiced or why it is important. These posters remind me of my younger self - an overly optimistic idealistic math/physics student who was vehemently anti-philosophical for pretty much the same juvenile reasons that have been repeated ad nauseam here. I therefore hope to correct some misunderstandings about philosophy typically expressed on here and generally prevalent among science circles. These are misunderstandings which took me decades to finally see, however I understand that conveying some of this understanding to others might be too optimistic on my part. I digress.

Philosophy is probably the most misunderstood academic discipline. I think it shares many parallels with medicine, including the common misunderstanding of the field by students, amateurs and most scientists; to elaborate, many believe that knowledge of anatomy, physiology and the medical nomenclature is needed for practicing medicine, but this belief is actually mistaken because they miss what medicine is about: knowledge of the above things are for a starting physician at best helpful in developing a systematic for diagnostics and treatment and it is actually only necessary in order to communicate with others; in philosophy, knowledge of the main philosophical schools and teachings practically have the same role for the philosopher.

Philosophy is not a collection of explanatory theories. In particular, knowing philosophy is not merely having knowledge of the content of any particular philosophies about any particular concepts; particular philosophies mostly serve to classify concepts in a conventional fashion in order to be able to communicate quickly about some new knowledge of some core archetypical concepts within the community. The canonical classification is usually not capable of being given in a truly systematic fashion, e.g. it typically isn't amenable to a simple mathematical treatment; to be caught up by this - as most scientists tend to be - is to miss the point, because philosophy is not about content but instead more about method and process.

Philosophy is characterized by a collection of methods used in conjunction in a communicative and reflective process which iff done correctly is capable of giving elucidations. Given explanations are typically not simply of a particular concept as expressed specifically in some delimited context, but instead of any possible expression - indeed, often all expressions - of some concept. This concept is then usually captured in a universal description which describes the necessary essentials and is semantically coherent, e.g. a concept such as 'love', 'motion' or 'freedom'. The universal description encompasses all possible particular instances, e.g. the study and description of motion in general is a philosophical topic, while any particular theory of motion, especially when done empirically correspond to different scientific theories.

The learning of the philosophical process - highly analogous again to the learning of the medical process - is one which takes not only years of absorbing book knowledge, but more importantly, years of passing through philosophical experience by shadowing those who are already in the know (cf. clinical training) and it is only after one has done this sufficiently long that they are capable of philosophizing correctly. It is only then that a capable philosopher can even begin to go beyond known principles in order to find a more true description, often by stating new principles. This again is analogous to the physician who goes beyond knowledge of standard anatomy and physiology by using deeper principles to reason in order to achieve his actual goal, namely treating some ailment.

The practice of philosophy is characterized as a process of describing all important aspects of any concept using both logic and intuition such that the necessary aspects of the concept can be faithfully elucidated, identified and hopefully better described. Today, if a part of this process can be carried out to an extreme degree of systematic precision, we typically stop speaking of philosophy and instead just quickly call this process 'mathematics' instead. Mathematics is highly related to philosophy, but is instead different by focussing almost exclusively on the methods and not on the content whatsoever, i.e. the topics of mathematics are both general and abstract, while those of philosophy while general tend to be concrete.

In fact, it is in this sense that physics is clearly part of philosophy because exactly like philosophy it seems to be the only discipline which has the exact same quality of not being about some specific topic but instead being a collection of methods - which although unlike the rest of philosophy are related to each mathematically - that are used to generally study any aspect of a concrete topic - nature - and the entire subject is organized around central principles, i.e. the laws of physics. Misunderstanding the goal of physics by getting bogged down on doing experiments or speaking instead as a science apologist of the utility of physical theories is to disregard understanding for understanding's sake: the traditional goal of theoretical physics is to understand the world.

This makes theoretical physics essentially a completely rational i.e. philosophical endeavor, were it not that a developed physical theory - once sufficiently matured - should eventually be compared to experiment, in contrast to the rest of philosophy. What the practice of theoretical physics has arguably lost in the last few decades is the idea that theories get to have time and room to mature - something that is always given to theories in philosophy. This modern impatience with physical theories is a direct consequence of multiple factors, among others the belief that the ultimate mathematical method is already known in physics (e.g. 'look for symmetry'), the professionalization of academia, the death of the generation who were trained philosophically and the competitive publishing culture focused mostly on low risk short-term research with clear results, while shunning long-term risky projects with unclear fruits; ironically, all of this is described by philosophy of science yet seems to fall on deaf ears.
 
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  • #162
A. Neumaier said:
No, you put your words into my mouth, making them sound very differently.

Some problems were solved by philosophy, and each time, upon gradually recognizing the power of the resulting methods, a corresponding part of philosophy gradually separated from philosophy and turned into a new science. This can be checked in every case.

It is very different from the claim that a new science arrived from nowhere and produced new methods for solving problems.
Then my question remains. Which problems? Give me a specific example.
 
  • #163
martinbn said:
Then my question remains. Which problems? Give me a specific example.
I gave several in post #158.
 
  • #164
martinbn said:
But do any of those papers actually solve any problems?
Yes. For instance, the Bell's famous paper on Bell inequalities was considered philosophy at that time and was published in a rather obscure journal.
 
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  • #165
martinbn said:
Which problems? Give me a specific example.
E.g. Newton's philosophical insight that motion of planets along ellipses can be reduced to a certain differential equation (that now bears his name).
 
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  • #166
martinbn said:
My point was that it is just lexical analysis with no progress.
I think you have a wrong impression of what philosophy is. Do you, for instance, know what is analytical philosophy?
 
  • #167
For centuries religious disdain for science effectively banned any conversation on the subject, it now seems science's disdain for philosophy effectively bans any conversation also. Science in its wisdom will simply treat some things as though they do or don't exist and then effectively ban any conversation on a issue saying a counter claim is useless philosophy. I don't think endless philosophizing of an issue is at all helpful but as a starting point for a line of scientific inquiry i think it vital and as A. Neumaier said:
Demystifier said:
Not true. The editors and reviewers in mainstream journals often reject papers because they use some philosophical arguments.
A. Neumaier said:
It is very different from the claim that a new science arrived from nowhere and produced new methods for solving problems.
Ideas don't just appear out of nowhere.
 
  • #168
martinbn said:
Then my question remains. Which problems? Give me a specific example.
To be a bit more descriptive: unification, i.e. dissolving dichotomies, as occurring in the history of theoretical physics is a completely philosophical method: unification is to make into a logically consistent unity which are separate concepts based on a philosophical analysis of what is necessary and what is contingent; when a unification occurs successfully, the new concept often automatically fulfills certain uniqueness and existence criteria, i.e. is automatically an application of some theory in pure mathematics, whether that field of pure mathematics has already been discovered or not.

Concrete examples are littered in the history of physics, e.g. the idea that uniform motion and rest are unified in one concept is a product of philosophy. Also, the idea that the apple falls and the moon orbits i.e. falls with a sufficient acceleration are essentially due to the same cause, is a result of philosophy. Likewise, the unification of energy and mass, as well as the unification of gravitation and spacetime curvature, are products of philosophy. Having the conceptual unification is practically a prerequisite for finding the correct mathematics describing the unification!

It is very important to realize and recognize that once the philosophical unification is achieved, the correct mathematical model of this unification - often by searching through applications in pure mathematics or creatively applying pure mathematics - follows quickly; this process is non-commutative i.e. the order in which it is done matters w.r.t. getting the wanted result! The philosophical conceptualization has to occur before the mathematization; this is because if one starts with mathematics and then tries to conceptualize, there are literally an infinite amount of roads that can be taken, while given some concept it is much easier to then mathematicize (cf. Bayes' theorem).

Even stronger, the forced unification of two independent mutually inconsistent mathematical frameworks which each are valid and work seperately, such as the theories of electricity and magnetism, Newtonian mechanics and Maxwellian electrodynamics, or inertial motion and accelerated motion, into a single new mathematical framework automatically tends to lead to more unifications.

Characteristic of unification is that more comes out than is put into the unification, e.g. unifying the mathematics and of electricity and magnetism automatically leads to a mathematical model of light; these are unexpected consequences of the unification which are typically completely unintended but instead follow necessarily and objectively as a side effect of the unification. Feynman, the last theoretician who had mastered unification, described this process as the new idea 'being simpler than what it is was before' i.e. that more comes out of a unification than was originally put into it.

It goes without saying that the two most important open problems in theoretical physics today, namely quantum gravity - i.e. the successful unification of (the mathematical frameworks of) quantum theory and general relativity - and the measurement problem in QT - i.e. the unification of the mathematical frameworks of unitary evolution and measurement - can only be solved by the philosophical method of unification.

Lastly, unlike practically all of the other methods learned in theoretical physics - i.e. mathematical methods - unification is clearly not reducible to a routine, algorithmic, purely deductive exercise before the unification has actually been successfully achieved, because successful unification is a genuinely creative process. This means that unification cannot be 'divided and conquered' like most simpler problems can be in physics, and it has instead to be done 'in one go' by a single mind, i.e. it has to be capable of being carried out as a derivation from first principles.

The relative unfamiliarity in learning how to properly do unification as a method - which is a fault of the physics education system - and the prevalence of remaining 'low hanging fruit' i.e. physics problems which can be divided and conquered, or even directly experimentally approached without changing or inventing any theories or inventing new mathematical reformulations of existing theories, goes a long way of explaining why even with so many physicists today alive and practicing, these problems remain; even worse, if a young person wants a good career, they best avoid such problems and just integrate themselves without resistance into existing hot research programs. This is why these problems are so difficult and why progress w.r.t these problems is so slow.
 
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  • #169
@vanhees71 I hope that the above post gives you some elucidation why foundational problems (such as the measurement problem in QM) are not only actual problems in physics, but literally the most important problems in physics regardless of any empirical impetus from the experimenters. The science apologist's often given justification for theoretical physics is a fallacy: advancing the state of experiment or of technology is not the main goal of physics! As Feynman said: 'Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.'
 
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  • #170
Auto-Didact said:
The philosophical conceptualization has to occur before the mathematization; this is because if one starts with mathematics and then tries to conceptualize, there are literally an infinite amount of roads that can be taken, while given some concept it is much easier to then mathematicize
Well said, an experiment is a brilliant supplier of data, but why do an experiment in the first place without some idea seeking an answer? We need not wonder with science, data is what it is- a cold hard fact.
I wonder about these vital facts therefore I philosophize.
 
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  • #171
Auto-Didact said:
@vanhees71 I hope that the above post gives you some elucidation why foundational problems (such as the measurement problem in QM) are not only actual problems in physics, but literally the most important problems in physics regardless of any empirical impetus from the experimenters. The science apologist's often given justification for theoretical physics is a fallacy: advancing the state of experiment or of technology is not the main goal of physics! As Feynman said: 'Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.'
No, I've no clue what all this has to do with physics. Physics is a down-to-earth (in the literal sense) natural science with the modest goal to find a description of observable facts about Nature. As it has turned out since Kepler, Galilei, and Newton one can find astonishingly accurate mathematical descriptions based on very few quite simple fundamental laws ("geometry" of spacetime, symmetry principles underlying the description of interactions). That itself is an amazing empirical fact, not more but also not less.

Particularly there is no measurement problem related to QT from a physics point of view. To the contrary QT describes all empirical facts quantitatively with an amazing precision. Only if there were a reproducible contradiction between empirical facts and the predictions of a theory this theory would have a problem.
 
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  • #172
Auto-Didact said:
As Feynman said: 'Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.'
The irony is that Feynman was also against philosophy in physics, precisely because it doesn't give practical results.

I think the problem is that most physicists, including Feynman, hold double standards on what they mean by "practical".
 
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  • #173
Well, Feynman obviously had more fun with sex (without practical results ;-)) than with philosophy (whatever practical results one might expect or not)...
 
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  • #174
Julius Ceasar said:
Well said, an experiment is a brilliant supplier of data, but why do an experiment in the first place without some idea seeking an answer? We need not wonder with science, data is what it is- a cold hard fact.
I wonder about these vital facts therefore I philosophize.
I think the fact that many physicists, or scientists generally, have a tendency to start mistaking what is conventional knowledge for what is a logically simple notion, purely as a result of being overly familiar with the conventional description. In effect, their haven gotten used to such a description then leads them to take it for granted; adopting such a pragmatic purely instrumental attitude w.r.t. a complicated or even illogical notion directly causes the genesis of a conventional tradition and then with time also a resistance to reconsidering that convention and reformulating it into a more coherent i.e. a logically simpler notion, e.g. by fitting it to a more accurate mathematical framework. Both Newton and Poincaré wrote extensively on this, but alas, no one seems to read them.
vanhees71 said:
No, I've no clue what all this has to do with physics. Physics is a down-to-earth (in the literal sense) natural science with the modest goal to find a description of observable facts about Nature. As it has turned out since Kepler, Galilei, and Newton one can find astonishingly accurate mathematical descriptions based on very few quite simple fundamental laws ("geometry" of spacetime, symmetry principles underlying the description of interactions). That itself is an amazing empirical fact, not more but also not less.
I see that I still haven't quite gotten the message across since you are still focussing on the trees instead of the forest, i.e. focussing on contingencies instead of on necessities; perhaps it is my fault for not being brief enough, I am writing to be understood. In any case, I will try to rephrase the main points.

In the practice of theoretical physics - exactly like in philosophy - it is not so much knowing the content of theories that is most important, but what is instead absolutely key is mastering the methods which enable the theorist to go beyond specific theories and in principle invent any theory. Probably the most important method that the very best theoretical physicists in history all have mastered is the art of unification: this is a philosophical method for discovering logical truth.

Consequently, all of the greatest physical theories are examples of unifications, i.e. products of employing the art of unification correctly: the criteria for being a successful unification is having a very high degree of mathematical self-consistency; this translates to directly being a naturally expressed model in some dialect of pure mathematics as a result of having complete logical consistency.

Theories which do not have the above tend to be self-inconsistent theories; they tend to be plagued with many possible interpretations. To use an analogy, self-inconsistent theories are prematurely born theories which are sick i.e. in need of treatment: this treatment is again employing the art of unification correctly.

Perhaps the two greatest mathematical physicists in all of history, Isaac Newton and Henri Poincaré, both have tried to explain these things about how to practice theoretical physics in some detail in their works, alas without specifically inventing or employing a terminology to make these things clear (NB: which explains why what I'm explaining doesn't seem to be common knowledge). In any case, I would personally recommend Poincaré's book Science and Method.
 
  • #175
Well, the methods of theoretical physics is based on mathematics, not philosophy.
 
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  • #176
vanhees71 said:
Well, the methods of theoretical physics is based on mathematics, not philosophy.
It is based on both, that is what you do not realize. Theoretical physics is not mathematics and it is not philosophy, it is instead a mixture of both. Newton described all of this in detail when he invented this field that we today call (theoretical) physics.

Physics is natural philosophy based on first principles that have been mathematicized. Physics is, so far at least, the only field which has been capable of being mathematicized in such a way.
 
  • #177
Theoretical physics is a mixture of mathematics and knowledge about the empirical facts and a lot of intuition about how to use the former to describe the latter. Still not a single piece of philosophy that could help in sight.
 
  • #178
vanhees71 said:
Theoretical physics is a mixture of mathematics and knowledge about the empirical facts and a lot of intuition about how to use the former to describe the latter. Still not a single piece of philosophy that could help in sight.
Intuition is guesswork guided by one's personal philosophy and one's personal knowledge. Your personal philosophy just remains unrecognized by you, but others recognize it very well...
 
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  • #179
vanhees71 said:
Theoretical physics is a mixture of mathematics and knowledge about the empirical facts and a lot of intuition about how to use the former to describe the latter. Still not a single piece of philosophy that could help in sight.
The usage of logic to reason using principles about any concrete topic is philosophy. The usage of logic to reason in such a manner about a specific subject is philosophy of [specific subject]; in the case of physics this is the philosophy of nature or natural philosophy.

The special thing about natural philosophy, opposed to the other branches of philosophy, is that the principles themselves can be phrased completely as mathematical statements: that is physics. The scientific part is that the results of reasoning based on principles can be checked empirically and so lead to a revision of the principles if necessary, but revised principles are still principles!

All of this is reflected directly in the name and Preface of Newton's book: Principia Mathematica Philosophiae Naturalis i.e. The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy. In fact, the only way to remove the philosophical aspect of physics is to remove both the very idea of there being any principles whatsoever as well as to disallow the usage of logic in the reasoning and so also the usage of mathematics altogether.
 
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  • #180
vanhees71 said:
Physics is a down-to-earth
Most physicists are down-to-earth, but some aren't. Newton and Einstein, for instance, weren't.
 
  • #181
vanhees71 said:
Well, the methods of theoretical physics is based on mathematics, not philosophy.
To use such a method, one doesn't need philosophy. But to discover such a method, philosophy may be of a great help.
 
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  • #182
Demystifier said:
Most physicists are down-to-earth, but some aren't. Newton and Einstein, for instance, weren't.
Einstein was in his younger years, and then he run into a dead end. It's the prime example of a genius mislead by philosophy!
 
  • #183
Demystifier said:
To use such a method, one doesn't need philosophy. But to discover such a method, philosophy may be of a great help.
Exactly, this cannot be stressed enough! If one starts with mathematical methods alone then there are simply too many possible roads to choose from and progress halts, while if one starts with a purely intuitive conceptual description constrained by logical truths then there are far fewer roads to choose from; choosing the right road quickly leads to progress. All of them have to be taken individually and at the beginning of each road is where the mathematical method begins anew.

Moreover, the correct route to choose prior to using any mathematical methods can actually be known in advance, purely as a matter of having a highly developed intuition based on the experience of having done this many times before and then recognizing how to proceed through the correct usage of analogy in this purely rational endeavor of logical exploration.

Poincaré describes this method of reasoning of the scientist masterfully in Science and Method, specifically in Book 1 The Scientist and Science, Chapter 1 The Selection of Facts. The book is available here by courtesy of Google Books.
vanhees71 said:
Theoretical physics is a mixture of mathematics and knowledge about the empirical facts and a lot of intuition about how to use the former to describe the latter.
The bolded part represents your misunderstanding: physics is not knowledge of empirical facts, physics is instead a form of reasoning using principles about empirical facts. Knowledge and reasoning while related are not the same thing, since the former is the thought content while the latter is the thought process.

In fact, physics is the only science which can not primarily be characterized by being merely a collection of facts but instead by being a collection of methods, i.e. not the content of knowledge but the method does physics make. No other science has this property (biology, chemistry, psychology, economics, etc) and when they do attain it they are usually reduced so completely to physics that they are called physics (cf. biophysics, econophysics, sociophysics, etc).

This is what Rutherford meant when he said"All science is either physics or stamp collecting.", with stamp collecting referring to the mere collecting of facts, i.e. the collection of knowledge. This is also what Einstein meant when he said: "[I do not] carry such information in my mind since it is readily available in books. ... The value of a college education is not the learning of many facts but the training of the mind to think."

Concrete example to drive home the point: merely knowing what the speed of sound is does not make one a physicist; instead knowing how to determine the speed of sound - especially if done purely by reasoning using intuition alone without having any prior knowledge of this topic - is what makes one a physicist.
 
  • #184
Auto-Didact said:
a logically simpler notion
One universe only, same laws of physics everywhere, you can't get something from nothing...a simple and logical place to begin looking at the cold hard data or useless philosophizing?
 
  • #185
vanhees71 said:
Particularly there is no measurement problem related to QT from a physics point of view. To the contrary QT describes all empirical facts quantitatively with an amazing precision. Only if there were a reproducible contradiction between empirical facts and the predictions of a theory this theory would have a problem.

Weinberg agrees with those of us who see a problem http://quantum.phys.unm.edu/466-19/QuantumMechanicsWeinberg.pdf
 
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  • #188
RUTA said:
Weinberg agrees with those of us who see a problem http://quantum.phys.unm.edu/466-19/QuantumMechanicsWeinberg.pdf
The problem seems to be primarily a problem of interpretation of the theory of quantum mechanics. Richard Feynman lamented “I think I can safely say that no one understands quantum mechanics.”.

If we adopt vanhees71's point of view, which is to see the models derived from the theory of quantum mechanics as mathematical tools exclusively intended to make predictions, then it also seems to me as vanhees71 that there is no problem.

The difficulty is to try to find, like Einstein, an unambiguous ontological interpretation of quantum mechanics :

In a 1926 letter to Born, Einstein complained: Quantum mechanics is very impressive. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory produces a good deal but hardly brings us closer to the secret of the Old One. I am at all events convinced that He does not play dice .

We poor humans only perceive the "world" through our consciences.

Patrick
 
  • #189
If science is the refined version of philosophy. Are we missing something in Philosophy that scientific criteria no longer
Julius Ceasar said:
Well said, an experiment is a brilliant supplier of data, but why do an experiment in the first place without some idea seeking an answer? We need not wonder with science, data is what it is- a cold hard fact.
I wonder about these vital facts therefore I philosophize.
Scientific method and basis is enough to go around the next step. In any problem you need to have solid basis. Science is a refined version of philosophy no more no less.
 
  • #190
vanhees71 said:
Einstein was in his younger years, and then he run into a dead end. It's the prime example of a genius mislead by philosophy!

Well. The main philosophy of Einstien still lives and envisioned today by the likes of Ashtekar, Baez, Barrau, Rovelli etc.
 
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  • #191
microsansfil said:
The problem seems to be primarily a problem of interpretation of the theory of quantum mechanics. Richard Feynman lamented “I think I can safely say that no one understands quantum mechanics.”.

If we adopt vanhees71's point of view, which is to see the models derived from the theory of quantum mechanics as mathematical tools exclusively intended to make predictions, then it also seems to me as vanhees71 that there is no problem.
There is indeed no problem if one gives up trying to really understand quantum mechanics and only using it to make predictions.

Using something is an engineering activity and needs knowledge but no real understanding (we can use electricity without understanding how it works), understanding it a philosophical activity.

But finding the principles missing to make progress beyond applying the old needs understanding on a deeper level than the superficial engineering knowledge.
 
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  • #192
vanhees71 said:
Einstein was in his younger years, and then he run into a dead end. It's the prime example of a genius mislead by philosophy!
We, the people on this forum, struggle over what do we mean by "ontology", but I think we don't even agree on what do we mean by "philosophy". For instance, when you say that classical electromagnetism is best understood when put in a Lorentz covariant form from the very start, for me that's an example of philosophy.

Consider the two statements:
1) Classical electromagnetism is best understood when put in a Lorentz covariant form from the very start.
2) Nonrelativistic QM is best understood when put in a Bohmian form.

I cannot imagine any precise definition of philosophy by which 2) is a philosophical statement and 1) isn't.
 
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  • #193
A. Neumaier said:
Using something is an engineering activity and needs knowledge but no real understanding (we can use electricity without understanding how it works), understanding it a philosophical activity.

What is the meaning of "understanding" ?

Finding a primitive formulation of quantum physics like the set theory which is the foundation of Mathematics or finding methaphysical beliefs to replace naive realism ?

Patrick
 
  • #194
Demystifier said:
For instance, when you say that classical electromagnetism is best understood when put in a Lorentz covariant form from the very start, for me that's an example of philosophy.
Fully agreed.

The moment one states that the core properties of some specific concept - in this particular case, the core properties of the empirical phenomenon of electromagnetism - is best described or even fully captured by some mathematical framework - in this particular case, the Lorentz covariant formalism - they are automatically making a deep philosophical statement relating to metaphysics.

It is not an exaggeration to say that physics is predominantly concerned with exactly the making of such statements about practically all natural phenomena or nature in general, i.e. discovering the principles and seeing the relationship between those principles and even more general principles; this is done in order to understand nature.

It is very striking that in physics making such statements is taken for granted, because such statements are literally never made in any other aspect of life, let alone in the practice of any other science! Even those philosophers unfamiliar with physics do not tend to know that physics has or makes such statements; those philosophers of course either aren't physicists or they are completely unfamiliar with Kant's analysis of Newtonian physics by being trained in another tradition and never looking outside their bubble.

Moreover, once any such statement of principle can and has been made successfully, almost everything else - i.e. constructing a mathematical model, making predictions, doing experiments - follows automatically as a deductive consequence with often little to no intelligence above an average grad student level required.

Therefore, the theoretical physicist should mainly be concerned with or at least always be interested in making such statements of principle, especially w.r.t. some part of physics which hasn't been stated satisfactorily yet in such a manner, like in the case of the measurement problem in QT, because this is where there is the most for physics to gain; in any case, what should be clear as day in the case of QT is that these gains will probably not come from the side of experiment!

I end by quoting Poincaré, who said that: The scientist does not study nature because it is useful to do so. He studies it because he takes pleasure in it, and he takes pleasure in it because it is beautiful. If nature were not beautiful it would not be worth knowing, and life would not be worth living.
 
  • #195
Here is a look into Einstein's thinking as he formulated GR: https://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/Zurich_Notebook/
You can see that he wasn't guided by "fitting data," but by particular mathematical properties that his philosophical reasoning had convinced him the theory must possess.
 
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  • #196
The philosophical reasoning leads to an idea that should fit with the data, not the other way around. Its about accepting a truth first then coming up with an idea after, the idea did not just appear out of nowhere. I believe in the scientific method but it needs to believe there is a truth out there and stop refusing help when its needed. If you ask for nothing then that's probably what you will get.
 
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  • #197
vanhees71 said:
Well, Feynman obviously had more fun with sex (without practical results ;-)) than with philosophy (whatever practical results one might expect or not)...
Today appeared the paper https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.05569 entitled "Foundations of Quantum Mechanics according to my teachers" beginning with the following statement:
"There are three reasons foundation of quantum mechanics are similar to sex:
1.Everyone considers herself/himself an educated amateur;
2.Professionals are treated with suspicion
And I forgot the third."
 
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  • #198
microsansfil said:
What is the meaning of "understanding" ?
Since you apparently cannot accept the dictionary meaning without asking deeper, you are doing already philosophy.
 
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  • #199
Auto-Didact said:
As Feynman said ...
Here Feynman teaches Bohmian mechanics without admitting so.
Feynman_ala_Bohm.jpeg
 
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  • #200
A. Neumaier said:
Since you apparently cannot accept the dictionary meaning without asking deeper, you are doing already philosophy.
I don't have a problem with philosophy or metaphysics. I became aware a long time ago that we perceive the "world" first and foremost through our consciousness (our first person experiences) and that by inter subjectivity via language we create a scientific process of objectification, in the hope of sparing the subject of the object of our study.

"It is the theory which decides what can be observed." dixit Albert Einstein. And so the subjective imprint of the subject is always present in spite of the scientific approach of objectification.

It is never Known but Is the Knower

Now the pragmatic approach "Shut up and calculate" is very useful to us.

Patrick
 
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