Option 12: What Happens After Death?

[Esnas]

Just as birth is a gateway into life as a being with a specific focused awareness (called ego in the case of humans), death is a gateway into the diffusion or dispersion of this particular awareness. Consciousness might still exist in some dispersed form but not the particular awareness experienced when we are in the state that we call “being alive”. (I own this as my conjecture at this time.) In this way, death is a gateway into a mystery. It is mystery because it is an unknown. Birth, life, and death are all mysteries. When we see a child being born there is mystery. When we truly look at the life in front of us we see mystery. When life ends and we are witness to the dissolution and decay of what was once something growing and animated this too is a mystery. Our impending death is one of our greatest motivating factors. ¡Dame la muerte que me falta!

 

[MediumBang]

IMO: Death is simply "more of the same."

We are what we are, and have always been what we are.

All we really KNOW about what we are is that we experience consciousness and that FROM CONSCIOUSNESS we create varying levels of perception, reason and conclusion, thereby creating the illusion of matter and/or reality. This is how things can exist and not exist at the same time.

As Doctor Phil says, "The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior." So, since Dr. Phil is very wise it is safe to conclude we will continue to experience existence after "death" the same as we have always experienced existence in the "past" (the "past" also being merely a concept with which we organize our perceptions and collectively create "reality.")

(P.S. I'll bet I'm the first person in these forums to quote Dr. Phil in order to substantiate a theory.)

 

[Luke987]

So go ahead, show me what you have. If you can supply a concept of god that is not self-contradicting, many philosophers have tried, and verifiable evidence to support your claim that such a god could and does exist, then your claim does not require faith, otherwise believing in it requires faith by definition - faith is defined as belief without evidence or in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Until you support your claim, it requires either faith in the claim or at the very least in your ability to discern the truth of the statement: God exists.

I personally have never encountered a God definition that wasn't self contradicting, vague to the point of uselessness, and completely without evidence.

I'd just like to ask; are you referring to a God which is not self-contradicting and has verifiable evidence? If the former, X, is only a necessity then you are spitting in the face of Deism. A belief in God based on reason itself.

 

[JoeDawg]

I'd just like to ask; are you referring to a God which is not self-contradicting and has verifiable evidence? If the former, X, is only a necessity then you are spitting in the face of Deism. A belief in God based on reason itself.

Belief in god is based on fear and ignorance. Deism is based on rationalization of that fear and lack of knowledge, not reason. It suffers no less from contradiction. Claims that an 'eternal' (a truly nonsensical concept) creator exists, based on the idea that causality demands a cause for every effect, simply shows how contradictory the idea of a creator god is. Deism begs the question of gods existence, it doesn't address it.

 

[setAI]

an 'eternal' (a truly nonsensical concept) creator exists,

an eternal intelligent system is not nonsensical in that forms of hypercomputation can compute eternal histories- infinite-state Turing Machines can store the Hilbert space of all possible finite and infinite histories- infinite-time TMs can evolve all possible finite and infinite histories- infinite state Turing machines may be possible with quantum computation- and rather modest quantum computation if the histories are from LOCAL and causal universes like ours- infinite time TMs are physically realizable by embedding classical computers in Malament-Hogarth spacetime-

if you have infinite state/time machines then eternal intelligent information processing is quite possible- such information structures could easily perform sub-computations of physical simulations and process the states it computes- that allows for every silly little theistic concept Man has ever envisaged to be simulated: essentially a 'creator' deity- however calling it creation is a cheat because it would really just be exploring other paths the universe has already taken- extracting possible histories from a matrix of all possible causal states and relationships-

this should not be surprising because ideas about God are novelties of the possible relationships between intelligence and environment that Mankind can dream up- it should be no surprise that the Universe already explores these types relationships of information and every other possible type-

 

[rewebster]

if you have infinite state/time machines then eternal intelligent information processing is quite possible- such information structures could easily perform sub-computations of physical simulations and process the states it computes- that allows for every silly little theistic concept Man has ever envisaged to be simulated: essentially a 'creator' deity- however calling it creation is a cheat because it would really just be exploring other paths the universe has already taken- extracting possible histories from a matrix of all possible causal states and relationships-

this should not be surprising because ideas about God are novelties of the possible relationships between intelligence and environment that Mankind can dream up- it should be no surprise that the Universe already explores these types relationships of information and every other possible type-

"I know I had a few more 'bits' and 'bytes' around here someplace---I wonder where they went?"

 

[JoeDawg]

an eternal intelligent system is not nonsensical in that forms of hypercomputation can compute eternal histories- infinite-state Turing Machines can store the Hilbert space of all possible finite and infinite histories

Infinite and eternal are not the same thing.
Infinite is a mathematical concept which deals with extending something indefinitely.
Eternal refers to something outside of, and unaffected by, time.

The whole point behind arguing an 'eternal' god, is that you remove him/her/it from any calculations (except with regards to the prime mover, or first cause.) as the eternal god is supposedly unaffected by the passage of time, and created the universe, so is external to space as well. This is not a scientific conception, since if a god exists outside of time and space it is essentially unobservable. Eternal is a completely empty concept, which is basically a divide by zero idea.

Deism is an attempt, by those who don't like the idea of a god not existing, to justify it rationally, even though it has no rational basis.

 

[laurelelizabeth]

This is a nerdy thought, so where else would it go than on a nerdy forum :) (I mean nerdy in the nicest way possible)

I'm thinking about how TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch -- ignore the double negatives, that is a colloquialism. I just like to say big words.) You can't create or destroy mass, energy, momentum, whatever else... It should be the same thing with people's souls. I don't know how that would figure in with the Earth's population expanding, unless there is somewhere in the universe where the population is decreasing. So death is being reincarnated into another form. hopefully you learn more each time you are reborn...

 

[MediumBang]

I originally came to these forums to research scientific facts in order to see how they might support a concept I was planning to base a play on. However, the main fact I learned here is that people, such as myself, annoy scientists.

So, I've decided to pass on writing a play which would have been based on the premise:

Scientists have recently done much to prove the existence of God, only they refer to God as "A Singularity" and have renamed Creation, "The Big Bang."*

Since this string is about death, I decided it might be as good a place as any to allow my project to die, while passing the concept along to those who might find it interesting.

*I thank Marcus for a newer definition of God (well he was defining Singularity -- but, to folks like me, no real difference...) as follows:

----------------
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Singularity.html

The primary meaning is a place (point or region) where a function blows up and fails to give meaningful results. This was taken over into physics: a place where a man-made mathematical model blows up and fails to give meaningful results.
----------------

My own personal definition of God is: "The sum total, as well as the lowest common denominator, of all that is," (which will probably piss off scientists, mathematicians, theologists and a whole bunch of other people -- but, hey, all that whacky stuff THEY do doesn't piss ME off!)

Well, then, bye! I'm off to a forum about farts or something -- you know, gaseous phenomena I can understand.

M.B.

P.S. If anyone decides to attack me on this, I'm going to just close my eyes, clasp my hands together and ask Singularity to forgive you.

 

[Duck1987]

We don't know what comes after death, but we have a pretty good reason to believe that there is nothing. I believe in God, but most of the time I just can't help but think about the nothingness that follows after my death

 

[Esnas]

We don't know what comes after death, but we have a pretty good reason to believe that there is nothing. I believe in God, but most of the time I just can't help but think about the nothingness that follows after my death

Would you say that nothingness preceeded your birth?

 

[Duck1987]

Would you say that nothingness preceeded your birth?

yes, but now that I have gotten to live, I can imagine what nothingness is compared to me, and it frightens me. if someone asked me :Would I rather not exist at all, I would say "Hell yes".


The reason I don't want to have kids is because they will die one day, and I don't want that

there are 2 ways to beat death
1. not to have life at all, becuase life also gives death which is stronger than life
2. and convince yourself that death is not the end, and that is what religion does

 

[Duck1987]

To all people, who say: "life is one, and I try to make the best of it", well excuse me, what the heck are you doing here then?

if the above statement is true, then you all should donate the money to the children in Africa, volunteer at a Hospital, and generally make life better for yourself and the others, that is what "the best of my ability" means, sitting here and typing such vain words is absurd.

The best that MOST people CAN do on this Earth is just produce babies, and that is it, and at the end of our lives we say "Well I did all of this, my job here is done" - Bull****, if only we lived for much much longer we WOULD achieve more, we WOULD educate more, we WOULD learn all the languages and crafts, but since we only have around 80 years, the best most of us can do is to have a family.

I myself is often discouraged to learn more than I actually have to just because all my knowledge will disappear once I die, instead I go out with my girlfriend, I spent MUCH less time on homework, I eat food that I like, and at the end of my life, I will say "Wow, I made it, without spending so much time reading and studying, I did what I had to get to college and I have learned what I had to get a job, and to think of all that fun time I had when I was young, yes that was a good life, whatever greatness I had or would have achieved will not matter to me, for I will not be here, life is short and life sucks, I had fun, yes, but I would rather not exist at all so that I would have never known how short and at the same time beautiful this life really is..."

"to make the BEST of life" is to create a vaccine against cancer and aids, to save a human being, to invent something significant, to attent peace demonstrations, to protect the innocent and the hungry, somehow I get the feeling that people who say that actually even try to do those things

 

[madphysics]

Is death really all that important? It happens to us all eventually, and there is no way to avoid it. Dying is a fact of life. We have no datum concerning what happens after that, and I would be very surprised if we ever did.

 

[Duck1987]

Is death really all that important? It happens to us all eventually, and there is no way to avoid it. Dying is a fact of life. We have no datum concerning what happens after that, and I would be very surprised if we ever did.

yes, death is important and IT IS the cold cruel and merciless fact of life

 

[Math Jeans]

Part of my thinks that its oblivion because I'm not into lots of supernatural stuff. However, I would love to believe that it is the fourth dimension, so I answered a bridge to another realm.

How cheesy is that.

 

[baywax]

Is death really all that important? It happens to us all eventually, and there is no way to avoid it. Dying is a fact of life. We have no datum concerning what happens after that, and I would be very surprised if we ever did.

Death is part of life. Life, enmass, does not continue without death. Next time you eat vegetables think about the amount of dieing that went into creating the compost that nourishes the vegies. And the vegies have to die to nourish us. And we have to die or completely overcrowd the Earth like a big cancer tumour.

The precise reason cancer develops is because of a genetic mutation. A gene, the P52 gene, creates a condition that kills the cell it is regulating at a specific point during development.

When there is a mutation that shuts down the P52 gene, the cell becomes what is called an "immortal cell". The immortal cell passes its mutation to all of its "offspring" cells and this is what we call the beginning of a tumour.

So, in the case of a cell, dieing is very important to the organism it supports.

And, by way of nature, we die at an (approximately) specific time as well. If we became immortal humans, diversity and species-survival would become extinct. This is because, while the environment continued to change, we would not evolve (from generation to generation) to match the changes. So, at a specific point, the environment would get the better of our homogeneous, unevolved and fragile but "immortal" species.

But this seems to be a thead about "what happens after life"? None of the available options answered the question for me. I'd say that the electromagnetic signature you set up while you're alive continues on for a while after death.

How long this em signature remains in action depends on the type of signature it is. Some of them can last for thousands of years and some are "gone" on the impact of death.

I think it has to do with how much importance a person places on "being alive" or on things that take place during their life. The more importance that is placed on events, the more one engraves their em signature into the physical nature of their environment.

 

[Esnas]

Is death really all that important? It happens to us all eventually, and there is no way to avoid it. Dying is a fact of life. We have no datum concerning what happens after that, and I would be very surprised if we ever did.

Baywax has pointed out some good reasons why death is important. I don't know anything about the P52 gene but what baywax says sounds reasonable to me. I've been told that prokaryotic cells are not programmed to die and so would theoretically divide forever except predators and adverse environment kill them off.

Death is also important because so much of what we humans do is based on a desire to escape it. Sex and postponement of death are very strong motivating factors - perhaps the strongest! Even rivalry for and pursuit of power is based on a desire for security and permanency vis-à-vis death.

 

[baywax]

Baywax has pointed out some good reasons why death is important. I don't know anything about the P52 gene but what baywax says sounds reasonable to me. I've been told that prokaryotic cells are not programmed to die and so would theoretically divide forever except predators and adverse environment kill them off.

Death is also important because so much of what we humans do is based on a desire to escape it. Sex and postponement of death are very strong motivating factors - perhaps the strongest! Even rivalry for and pursuit of power is based on a desire for security and permanency vis-à-vis death.

Interesting that you point to the prokaryotic cell. Simply stated, prokaryotes are molecules surrounded by a membrane and cell wall. An evolutionary example of early life.

You seem to be saying that death is important because it motivates us to stay alive. I'm not sure if the "survival instinct" is a result of the fear of death. If we look at the prokaryote cell, its doesn't have a central nervous system, it doesn't even have sexual reproductive capabilities. It certainly does not crave security and permanency yet it displays an "instinct for survival". This is evident in its ability to perform photosynthesis, as in... nourish itself in order to survive. In some cases prokaryotes are mobile... able to maintain survival by moving away from or toward stimulus it either wants or rejects by way of flagella that evolved into the cell wall of some of these cells. But I highly doubt the prokaryote is aware of "death" as a "threat" to its survival. It has somehow, naturally developed a propensity to survive.

It would be an interesting excercise to try and trace back to the origin of the "survival instinct". Is it a universal phenomenon? Does it apply to both living and non-living entities? Is what we see as the "survival instinct" a reflection of the tendency for all phenomena to... "survive"?

 

[JoeDawg]

Is death really all that important?

To whom?

Yes, to some, not so much to others.

Many cultures have viewed the way a person dies to be symbolic of their life. Dying well, or even the 'right to die' as one chooses is something that affects us all.

Biologically, it seems advantageous, as we tend to get damaged as we age and making way for those who are stronger, less worn out, would be an advantage in terms of our genes surviving.

On a more basic level, most living things that have existed in the history of the world died without ever reproducing. The continuity of life, on that basis, is almost an aberration. We see life as having importance, only because life that doesn't select for survival, is no longer around. We value life, biologically and culturally because we evolved to. If we hadn't we wouldn't be here.

I think those who wish to live forever would be very disappointed with that reality. And on one last note, how we view death, can have a very big influence on how we live.

 

[Duck1987]

Death is part of life. Life, enmass, does not continue without death. Next time you eat vegetables think about the amount of dieing that went into creating the compost that nourishes the vegies. And the vegies have to die to nourish us. And we have to die or completely overcrowd the Earth like a big cancer tumour..

And what's wrong with everyone being immortal? We would just have to stop producing babies, its as simple as that, producing babies should not be the primal function of any human, and since I never complained before I was born, nobody will complain as well. But now that I have gotten to live, I must face death which will eventually take away my life.

But this seems to be a thead about "what happens after life"? None of the available options answered the question for me. I'd say that the electromagnetic signature you set up while you're alive continues on for a while after death.

How long this em signature remains in action depends on the type of signature it is. Some of them can last for thousands of years and some are "gone" on the impact of death.

I think it has to do with how much importance a person places on "being alive" or on things that take place during their life. The more importance that is placed on events, the more one engraves their em signature into the physical nature of their environment..

What do you mean by electro-magnetic signature? Do you mean that we are closely connected to Earth and other celestial bodies because they exert EM pressure on us? WE do feel it sometimes though, for example when someone has a headache of feet ache before the rain starts? But is that a blueprint for the soul?

 

[Duck1987]

Interesting that you point to the prokaryotic cell. Simply stated, prokaryotes are molecules surrounded by a membrane and cell wall. An evolutionary example of early life.

You seem to be saying that death is important because it motivates us to stay alive. I'm not sure if the "survival instinct" is a result of the fear of death. If we look at the prokaryote cell, its doesn't have a central nervous system, it doesn't even have sexual reproductive capabilities. It certainly does not crave security and permanency yet it displays an "instinct for survival". This is evident in its ability to perform photosynthesis, as in... nourish itself in order to survive. In some cases prokaryotes are mobile... able to maintain survival by moving away from or toward stimulus it either wants or rejects by way of flagella that evolved into the cell wall of some of these cells. But I highly doubt the prokaryote is aware of "death" as a "threat" to its survival. It has somehow, naturally developed a propensity to survive.

It would be an interesting excercise to try and trace back to the origin of the "survival instinct". Is it a universal phenomenon? Does it apply to both living and non-living entities? Is what we see as the "survival instinct" a reflection of the tendency for all phenomena to... "survive"?

The survival instinct certainly applies to every intelligent thing, including the animals, we are, on the other hand are so evolved and conscious, that it makes us being aware of our ultimate doom - death, when the our whole personal universe collapses. That is a strong feeling, I don't believe in can ever be rooted out by anything, even religious people sometimes have doubts, including me, and if they say they don't they are lying.

"The Ultimate Concern", as Tillich pointed out is necessary for human beings because every religion is based on the fear of death, not so much on God who cares for us in the present, it is SOLELY the fear of death, and I don't believe that there is any efficient way to avoid that fear EXCEPT to have a really bad and sad life, of which you don't expect anything. When you come to a point when you despise life and you get rid of any thought of having another life after this one and you are about to end it all after you jump from the Empire State Building, then you have beaten death, because you stop being afraid of it.

 

[baywax]

is that a blueprint for the soul?

Could be. I've never built one or even seen one. I read the word "soul" once in a while but I don't know what it is.

 

[baywax]

The survival instinct certainly applies to every intelligent thing, including the animals, we are, on the other hand are so evolved and conscious, that it makes us being aware of our ultimate doom - death, when the our whole personal universe collapses. That is a strong feeling, I don't believe in can ever be rooted out by anything, even religious people sometimes have doubts, including me, and if they say they don't they are lying.

"The Ultimate Concern", as Tillich pointed out is necessary for human beings because every religion is based on the fear of death, not so much on God who cares for us in the present, it is SOLELY the fear of death, and I don't believe that there is any efficient way to avoid that fear EXCEPT to have a really bad and sad life, of which you don't expect anything. When you come to a point when you despise life and you get rid of any thought of having another life after this one and you are about to end it all after you jump from the Empire State Building, then you have beaten death, because you stop being afraid of it.

What you're saying makes sense. I prefer to simplify it all and I figure that, with death being a part of life, when a person is able to accept life they accept the fact that death comes with it.

Too much marketing on the telly, in politics and so forth, is creating a fear of life. "Orange alert"!, duct tape and plastic your house now! take this pill to avoid HERPES!... IF you experience anxiety... take this pill!... if you're not experiencing 8 hour-long hard-ons, you're not alive... take this pill today...

Then there is the other side that pushing a fear of death... you know... like CANCER... or AIDS or BAD BRAKES or TERRORISM... those Afgans are teaching their camels to swim so prepare to DIE... and so on... so... there is a tendency to try and get the population between a rock and a hard place... life is scarey... death is scarey... whoo whoo... what are you going to do? Believe Jimmy Swagart? Believe Jimmy Baker or Tammy Fay? Believe Pat Robinson? Believe the grandson of a Nazi supporter? Believe the ex-Nazi Youth of a Pope?? What ever you do... don't believe yourself! So... as usual, the only option is to buck authority in a civilized manner as far as I can tell.

 

[Duck1987]

What you're saying makes sense. I prefer to simplify it all and I figure that, with death being a part of life, when a person is able to accept life they accept the fact that death comes with it.

Too much marketing on the telly, in politics and so forth, is creating a fear of life. "Orange alert"!, duct tape and plastic your house now! take this pill to avoid HERPES!... IF you experience anxiety... take this pill!... if you're not experiencing 8 hour-long hard-ons, you're not alive... take this pill today...

Then there is the other side that pushing a fear of death... you know... like CANCER... or AIDS or BAD BRAKES or TERRORISM... those Afgans are teaching their camels to swim so prepare to DIE... and so on... so... there is a tendency to try and get the population between a rock and a hard place... life is scarey... death is scarey... whoo whoo... what are you going to do? Believe Jimmy Swagart? Believe Jimmy Baker or Tammy Fay? Believe Pat Robinson? Believe the grandson of a Nazi supporter? Believe the ex-Nazi Youth of a Pope?? What ever you do... don't believe yourself! So... as usual, the only option is to buck authority in a civilized manner as far as I can tell.

"What you don't know, can kill you"; Killer "African" bees are more aggressive to more gentle "European" bees, BEWARE; printers are dangerous, ACs; aerosol; expected Terrorists attack; bird flu; some other made up disease - PLEASE buy this and depend on us! your government, and we will save you (keep your ****ing mouth shut and do what you are told) - that is the subliminal message.

I hate commercials and I can't stand politicians, nowadays a politician and a liar is practically the same thing - they are synonims.

The American government went to **** after Roosevel, with Trumans barbaric A-boms and the Cold war which included arms funding for the warring African nations, there was and is so much dirty politics and propagande that the only reason the American government is in power today is because of stupid fat rednecks

 

[baywax]

The American government went to **** after Roosevel, with Trumans barbaric A-boms and the Cold war which included arms funding for the warring African nations, there was and is so much dirty politics and propagande that the only reason the American government is in power today is because of stupid fat rednecks

Think about Mark Twain or the originals like Ben Franklin, back when when honour was as important as your next meal. With examples like these people, their families and their ideals, America could make it out of this rather dark age.

 

[Chronos]

Death is like life, only different and more enduring. The universe was 13.7 billion years old before I was born, and will probably outlast me. I've pondered the reason for this, but the reason does not appear interested in my opinions.

 

[madphysics]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. What you are saying is true i every aspect. I was focusing on the fact of death in human culture, and despite the fact that many people find it important, and attempt to escape it, there is really no good tested method so far. Religion is a common doorway, but like I said before, there is really not that much conclusive data in that field, so let's not go into it.

Yes, death is a fact of life. In essence, a part of the natural rotation of nature.

Thank you for correcting me. I have a problem with clearly stating things in my posts.

 

[Luke987]

Belief in god is based on fear and ignorance. Deism is based on rationalization of that fear and lack of knowledge, not reason. It suffers no less from contradiction. Claims that an 'eternal' (a truly nonsensical concept) creator exists, based on the idea that causality demands a cause for every effect, simply shows how contradictory the idea of a creator god is. Deism begs the question of gods existence, it doesn't address it.

Nonsense. Just because you cannot comprehend an eternal being doesn't make it a contradictory impossibility.

You clearly have no understanding of what Deism is. You can rationalize that which we know (the constants and so on - X) to determine the case for a creator but you cannot go on to rationalize the creator because you have nothing to work from as X is now absent and instead you are left with Y.

 

[JoeDawg]

Nonsense. Just because you cannot comprehend an eternal being doesn't make it a contradictory impossibility.

I never said that. It has nothing to do with me. It has nothing to do with whether I can comprehend anything. Deism is self-contradicting.

The only reason to posit an 'eternal creator' is if one assumes that a first cause is needed. And first cause is simply the cheat used to get out of infinite regression that would be needed if the universe required 'creation'. Its a circular argument, not one that is difficult to comprehend at all.

There is no rational basis for a 'creator', believing in one is entirely irrational. And even if a first cause does exist, there is no reason to assume it was some form of conscious agency, which is implicit in the idea of gods.

Deism is no better than any other supernatural belief system.

The only reason to believe in god is that you want to believe.