Ownership and the means of production

honestrosewater
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Main Question or Discussion Point

By prohibiting slavery, humans have accepted the concept that some things should not be owned. Has this limitation on ownership ever been applied to the means of production in a society? I mean complete prohibition of ownership, not shared ownership or ownership by some governing body, but the means of production being totally unownable. Why wouldn't it work?

I was just thinking of starting a little garden for anyone to use, where people can keep whatever they grow, but I don't want anyone to own anything in it (the tools, the original plants, etc.).
 

Answers and Replies

russ_watters
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Perhaps since the idea doesn't exist in real life, you could explain how it would work instead of asking for it to be explained why it wouldn't? The very idea just doesn't make logical sense to me. It sounds almost like gibberish to me. One obvoius question: In this garden, where do the tools and plants come from?
 
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What you are proposing *is* slavery. The prohibition of slavery is essentially the idea that a man has a right to the products of his own labor. If the means of production cannot be owned, then a man has no right to the products of his own labor. That is slavery, you have only replaced "the master" with "the masses".
 
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A communal garden created with individual negotiation as apposed to government direction and funded with donations created by savings in grocery expenses.

Go for it, I'd like to here how this garden grows.
 
Astronuc
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As Jase indicted it sounds to me like one is talking about a community garden. Usually one would own the land and then invite folks to put in some effort to cultivate the land, plant, tend, then harvest produce/crops. There are several such groups in my area. We give away extra produce we grow and some friends will give us something they've grown.
 
russ_watters
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I don't like what you guys are growing, so I'm going to dig it all up and plant pot. Who'se going to stop me?
 
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Every garden has pests mate, they're dealt with as they arise.

In any case, your pot would not be unappreciated in any communal garden I've come across.

Besides, your best off hiding it amongst the tomatoes, not in place of.
 
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mheslep
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Every garden has pests mate, they're dealt with as they arise.

In any case, your pot would not be unappreciated in any communal garden I've come across.

Besides, your best off hiding it amongst the tomatoes, not in place of.
Who are you to determine who's a pest and who's not? Sounds like you are suggesting you own the garden. :wink:
 
mheslep
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I don't like what you guys are growing, so I'm going to dig it all up and plant pot. Who'se going to stop me?
Nobody. And, since the pot is not owned by anybody, I'm moving in an taking it all after you put in the trouble to grow it. Thanks, appreciate it. :wink:
 
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Who are you to determine who's a pest and who's not? Sounds like you are suggesting you own the garden. :wink:
You aren't suggesting it is difficult to identify a pest in a garden. Are you?:confused:
 
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Nobody. And, since the pot is not owned by anybody, I'm moving in an taking it all after you put in the trouble to grow it. Thanks, appreciate it. :wink:
I will stop you. Not because I own it but because you do not. You assume you will be able to own it. And have fooled yourself into believing you can take it.
 
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So getting rid of ownership quickly leads to war with the winner taking ownership.
 
mheslep
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So getting rid of ownership quickly leads to war with the winner taking ownership.
An ideal was defended at no point was ownership claimed.
 
russ_watters
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An ideal was defended at no point was ownership claimed.
Fighting over what can and can't be done in the garden is a claim to ownership.
 
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It was obvious where the gardens detractors were heading.

So the USA has claimed Iraq or the oil?
 
russ_watters
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It was obvious where the gardens detractors were heading.
I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you are saying that since the motives are obvious, it doesn't have anything to do with ownership. As I said, it isn't so much the deciding but the fighting that is the claim to ownership.
So the USA has claimed Iraq or the oil?
We most certainly had ownership of Iraq and the oil. We are currently in the process of giving it back to the Iraqi people.

As others said, if I have the bigger gun, you can do nothing to stymie my claim to ownership of the garden.
 
mheslep
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It was obvious where the gardens detractors were heading.

So the USA has claimed Iraq or the oil?
Hey! Ive found a pest!
 
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I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you are saying that since the motives are obvious, it doesn't have anything to do with ownership. As I said, it isn't so much the deciding but the fighting that is the claim to ownership. We most certainly had ownership of Iraq and the oil. We are currently in the process of giving it back to the Iraqi people.

As others said, if I have the bigger gun, you can do nothing to stymie my claim to ownership of the garden.
Let's make this garden the last garden. It’s easier to imagine anyone actually fighting another to own it. That there is a person or people who take advantage of the gardens produce as they do with other aspects of their environment, whether they are aware of it at all or have some notion of it they may or may not claim ownership. And there are others who would claim ownership of the garden through use of force. The claim may succeed. Unless the claim has the bigger gun the garden remains unowned. The fact I fight for something does not mean I own it.
I have fought for many reasons, sometimes just for fun.
 
Evo
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By prohibiting slavery, humans have accepted the concept that some things should not be owned. Has this limitation on ownership ever been applied to the means of production in a society? I mean complete prohibition of ownership, not shared ownership or ownership by some governing body, but the means of production being totally unownable. Why wouldn't it work?

I was just thinking of starting a little garden for anyone to use, where people can keep whatever they grow, but I don't want anyone to own anything in it (the tools, the original plants, etc.).
I'd have to say no. To some extent there is a responsible person or group. In urban areas where people clean up vacant lots and have a communal garden, the city usually is the owner.

Finally, all community gardens have a structure. The organization depends in part on whether the garden is "top down" or "grassroots". There are many different organizational models in use for community gardens. Some elect boards in a democratic fashion, while others can be run by appointed officials. Some are managed by a Non-profit organizations, such as a community gardening association, a church, or other land-owner; others by a city's recreation or parks department, a school or University. In most cases, gardeners are expected to pay annual dues to help with garden upkeep, and the organization must manage these fees. The tasks in a community garden are endless - keeping up the area's appearance, mulching paths, recruiting new members, reminding members to tend plots when they get weedy, fundraising, the list goes on... Sensible rules and an 'operations manual' are both invaluable tools, and ideas for both are available at ACGA and other sites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_garden

Back in the 60's "hippies" would move to "communes" where everything was supposedly shared. I knew a couple of people that did this, realised it didn't work in reality and moved out. It's just human nature for people to fall into leaders and followers. The leaders have more and get their way, the followers get screwed, although many are too meek to ever say anything or stand up for themselves.
 
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Evo,

Leader or follower?.....Oh wait, I forget who I am asking.
 
Evo
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Evo,

Leader or follower?.....Oh wait, I forget who I am asking.
I have my own garden. :devil: I'm pushy, always right, and know more than anyone else. :uhh: I guess that makes me a leader. :tongue2: Actually when we form groups, I am always voted the leader. Unfortunately it is because I am usually the only one that bothered to learn enough on the subject that I can pull the others along.
 
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The garden may be res nullius and ownership might be determined, if it needs to be, on a finder’s keeper’s basis. No need to fight.

There can’t be an ownerless garden unless it exists on ownerless land.

I’m sorry, honestrosewater, but unless you know of a little piece of res nullius nearby the garden will have an owner. Our law appears to be against something not being owned (I’m not trying to say some hippie commune would be a better place to live).

If you were to find such land and create a garden, the land becomes yours, making the garden owned.
However if you did benefit from a res nullius garden and were unfortunate enough to become the owner you could abandon it with the intention of no longer being the owner (is it possible to abandon something and keep it?) rendering the garden res neglectae or unowned.

Of course the unowned Pot is still free for the taking so the garden will need guns and fences to keep the rats out….
 
Alfi
Should we call this garden, Eden, or just Earth.

The 'mybiggergun vs 'mybiggergang' led to society as it is.

Borders and ownership aren't obvious when viewed from orbit.


Ownership implies at least two things.
One, there is an owner
Two, there is a non owner.
How's about I create a dividing fence. I will make mine circular, and only claim the outside as mine.
 
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