Particle collisions with magnetic forces

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of charged particles in magnetic fields during collisions at the ATLAS detector. Participants explore the origins of the magnetic fields affecting particle trajectories, the role of superconducting coils, and the implications of these factors on the detection of particles. The conversation includes technical aspects of particle physics and detector design.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the magnetic fields observed in particle collisions at ATLAS are generated by the collision itself, suggesting that the curvature of particle trajectories indicates this.
  • Another participant clarifies that ATLAS utilizes a toroidal magnetic field, while CMS employs a solenoidal field, implying that external magnetic fields are not the primary source of the observed effects.
  • A participant expresses confusion about the source of the magnetic force acting on the particles, emphasizing that the curvature of trajectories should not be attributed to Earth's magnetic field.
  • There is a contention regarding the understanding of superconducting coils and their role in influencing particle trajectories, with some participants asserting that the presence of these coils is fundamental to the observed curvature.
  • One participant proposes that the metallic sensors used for detection might be influenced by magnetic induction from the surrounding magnetic fields, raising questions about the interaction between the sensors and the particles.
  • Several participants challenge each other's interpretations and understanding of the detectors and the physics involved, leading to a mix of assertions and corrections without reaching a consensus.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the source of the magnetic fields affecting particle trajectories and the implications of these fields on detection. There is no clear consensus on the nature of the magnetic forces involved or their origins.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the definitions and roles of various components in the ATLAS detector, including the superconducting coils and the metallic sensors. The discussion reflects a lack of clarity on how these elements interact with charged particles and the magnetic fields present.

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If positive charged particles curve in the presence of a magnetic field does that mean the particles colliding in ATLAS create magnetic fields? I ask this because some of the detected particles curve perpendicular to the collision in ATLAS. From what I observed the trajectory maintains a constant curve from the collision. So if it was a magnetic field from an outside source being the accelerator tunnel why are the detected trajectories curved from both sides of the collision. If the magnetic force acting on the charged particles was generated from the tunnel, it would increase the velocity because the particles direction is the same as the force. Where the tunnel on the opposite direction to the collision could be seen to act on the particle moving in the opposite direction,but its force is dismissed because of its opposite equal magnetic force.

This to me looks like R is defined from the centre of the collision. Please help me to understand this better. Is the magnetic field from the collision?
 
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no one has an external magnetic field, in the case of atlas it is a toriodal and in CMS a solenoidal
 
Not the sensor the tunnel that accelerates the particles using individually fired magnets to accelerate the particles. I was told that the curve was because of charged particles in a magnetic field. i want to know where the generated force of the field comes from. Please don’t say EARTH. The curved trajectories show that the magnetic force is generated from the centre of the collision. I state this because if charged particles curve like this because of magnetic force, the arguing law is R radius of the magnetic force. If it was the Earth generating this there would be no curve observable in the sensor because the distance required to see a shift in the trajectory would be to far. I would like to know if this curve is from a magnetic field. If so, then R would suggest the collision is the generator of the field. Please help.
 
what? one has a superconducting coil surrounding the detector, how hard is that to understand?
 
If there is a superconducting coil in atlas, is that the reason for this curve. Why do they have a superconducting coil in the sensor?
 
I have asked this question before but not in this thread, that thread was about particle interaction. But specifically charged particles can’t be seen out side a magnetic field. If a magnetic field can’t be eliminated from the experiment. how can there trajectories be itemized defined in magnetic fields.
 
threadmark said:
I have asked this question before but not in this thread, that thread was about particle interaction. But specifically charged particles can’t be seen out side a magnetic field. If a magnetic field can’t be eliminated from the experiment. how can there trajectories be itemized defined in magnetic fields.

from my point of view the experiment is simple.

you put a huge magnet aroud your detector so that charged particles can bend.

how hard IS that to understand?

"The curved trajectories show that the magnetic force is generated from the centre of the collision" = nonsense
 
I accept and thank you for your help, but to annoy you further. The particles are detected with matrixes of metallic sensors. So could it be possible the particles are influenced by a possible magnetic induction on these sensors from the “huge magnet”. So could this possible induction to the sensors be affecting the particles as they pass through the detectors sensor thingy?
 
  • #10
tell me where you have found information about these metallic sensors and how large their magnetic field strength is.
 
  • #11
ansgar said:
tell me where you have found information about these metallic sensors and how large their magnetic field strength is.

You could start by watching the construction of the LHC and find some lectures on its operation, my favorite is DR Frank Wilczek a theoretical physicist in a discussion of unified field theory. I found it thought provoking and amusing with his eccentric humor.
 
  • #12
Threadmark, I think angsgar was being polite. A more direct phrasing is "you are clearly misunderstanding something about the detectors, because what you write doesn't really reflect reality".
 
  • #13
threadmark said:
You could start by watching the construction of the LHC and find some lectures on its operation, my favorite is DR Frank Wilczek a theoretical physicist in a discussion of unified field theory. I found it thought provoking and amusing with his eccentric humor.

my collegues work and built ATLAS...
 

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