Period of superposed cyclic integer rows

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical properties of two cyclic integer rows and their superposition. Participants explore how to analytically express the generated arrays from these rows and determine the resulting period of their superposition. The focus includes theoretical aspects of periodicity and the behavior of indicator functions derived from the cumulative sums of the rows.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe the process of generating arrays Gai and Gbj from two rows of integers, emphasizing the cyclical nature of the sums.
  • One participant suggests that the indicator function for the generated sets exhibits periodic behavior, with specific examples provided to illustrate this claim.
  • Another participant proposes that the period of the superposition of the two sets could be calculated as a product of their individual periods, leading to a conjecture about the periodicity of the combined indicator function.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about how to formally derive the period of the superposition and how to represent the combined indicator function mathematically.
  • One participant references the least common multiple (LCM) of the periods as a potential method for determining the period of the combined sequence.
  • There is a suggestion that the periodicity of the combined indicator function could be analyzed using discrete Fourier methods, though the specifics of this approach remain unclear.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the generated arrays exhibit periodic behavior, but there is no consensus on the exact nature of the period of the superposition or the best method to express the combined indicator function. Multiple competing views and approaches remain present in the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations in the discussion include the dependence on the definitions of periodicity and the unresolved mathematical steps in deriving the combined period and indicator function. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of how to approach the problem mathematically.

mahch
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Take two rows of respective length m and n:
a1, a2, a3,..., am and b1, b2, b3, ..., bn.

Then produce as follows the generated array Gai to contain these elements:
a1, a1+a2, a1+a2+a3, ..., a1+..+am,
a1+..+am+a1, a1+..+am+a1+a2, ...

Alike produce the generated array Gbj to contain these elements:
b1, b1+b2, b1+b2+b3, ..., b1+..+bn,
b1+..+bn+b1, b1+..+bn+b1+b2, ...

The numbers ai and bj are cumulated cyclically to produce their respective arrays Gai and Gbj.

Two questions are open to be analyzed (by me) - hope someone has a hint:
1. How to express analitically all numbers contained in Gai U Gbj as a function.
2. Since the rows ai and bj has periods m and n respectively, what is the resulting period of the superposition , ie. the period of Gai U Gbj?

I appreciate your comment or hint.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
mahch said:
Take two rows of respective length m and n:
a1, a2, a3,..., am and b1, b2, b3, ..., bn.

Then produce as follows the generated array Gai to contain these elements:
a1, a1+a2, a1+a2+a3, ..., a1+..+am,
a1+..+am+a1, a1+..+am+a1+a2, ...

Alike produce the generated array Gbj to contain these elements:
b1, b1+b2, b1+b2+b3, ..., b1+..+bn,
b1+..+bn+b1, b1+..+bn+b1+b2, ...

The numbers ai and bj are cumulated cyclically to produce their respective arrays Gai and Gbj.

Two questions are open to be analyzed (by me) - hope someone has a hint:
1. How to express analitically all numbers contained in Gai U Gbj as a function.
2. Since the rows ai and bj has periods m and n respectively, what is the resulting period of the superposition , ie. the period of Gai U Gbj?

I appreciate your comment or hint.

looks to me like you have an infinite set.
 
Yes sure, the numbers are going infinite, but the indicator function on the set ai has periodic behaviour. That is what I am aiming at.

To illustrate take the following two simple sets to begin with:
Let ai = { 7, 4, 7, 4, 7, 12, 3, 12 }
and bj = { 12, 6, 11, 6, 12, 18, 5, 18 }

whereby the numbers in the set are cumulated round robin, as described in my first post. So the indicator funtion has a 1 on postion 7, 11, 18, 22, 29, 41, 44, 56, 56+7, 56+7+4, etc etc.

The same for the bjs : the indicator has a non-zero (=1) on 12, 18, 29, 35, 47, 65, 70, 88, 88+12, 88+12+6, etc. etc.

So obviously the indicator on both sets ai and bj separately, are periodic (periodicity = 8). So the superposition of both periodical sets have a periodicity ( like a discrete Fourier).

The first question would be what that period looks like and how it is calculated. It can be done heuristically with excel sheets, but that is unsatisfactory.
Also, what does the superposed indicatorset looks like.

Having these two superposed, the a third set of ck would be superposed with the first superposition - and so on.

That is where my (more generalized) initial question arose from.
 
Now that I understand you more, I would think the period will repeat after the indicator element=1 at 8*7*11 since 56 = 8*7 and 88 = 8*11 and have a period as high as 8*(7+11) elements not excluding any duplicate occurrences of the same integer in each set. See if that compares favorably with your spread sheet.
 
ramsey2879 said:
Now that I understand you more, I would think the period will repeat after the indicator element=1 at 8*7*11 since 56 = 8*7 and 88 = 8*11 and have a period as high as 8*(7+11) elements not excluding any duplicate occurrences of the same integer in each set. See if that compares favorably with your spread sheet.


Thank you - that covers my results - The Question I am most eager to get answered is: how to 'walk through the ONEs' of the combined indicator function. That is, a function walking me through the ONEs, or better even the other way around, walk me through the ZEROs. I think this should be could be done by a discrete Fourier, but am puzzling how to do this best.
 
To answer part of your question, the 'period' (of the index, in the restricted sense you have used, since the sequence itself is not periodic) of the combination will be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_common_multiple" (m,n).

I suppose you have noticed that you only need to describe any particular sequence, say Ga, only up to the length m of the array: if you divide any possible index x by m, to produce a quotient q and a residue r (x = qm+r), then Gax = q Gam + Gar.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dodo said:
To answer part of your question, the 'period' (of the index, in the restricted sense you have used, since the sequence itself is not periodic) of the combination will be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_common_multiple" (m,n).

I suppose you have noticed that you only need to describe any particular sequence, say Ga, only up to the length m of the array: if you divide any possible index x by m, to produce a quotient q and a residue r (x = qm+r), then Gax = q Gam + Gar.

absolutely true - this is the periodicity or the modulus. Since multiple 'rows' with their own modulus are superposed, the question still is how to formulate the superposition at number n.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
6K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
6
Views
5K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
Replies
2
Views
2K