Permittivity and Permeability changes

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the theoretical implications of changes in the permittivity and permeability of free space on the speed of light. Participants explore the relationships between these constants and their definitions within the SI unit system, as well as the effects of hypothetical changes on physical phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the theoretical consequences of increasing the permittivity or permeability of free space on the speed of light, referencing the equation $$c=\sqrt{\frac{1}{\epsilon\mu}}$$.
  • Others clarify that in current SI units, the permittivity and permeability of free space are defined constants and cannot change except through redefinition by the BIPM committee.
  • One participant suggests that if the speed of light were to change, it would imply a change in the definition of the meter rather than a physical change in light itself.
  • A participant mentions that a change in the fine structure constant could affect the interaction of light with atoms, although the implications of this are not fully explored.
  • Another participant requests an example calculation using the equation for speed of light, expressing confusion over the units involved.
  • A detailed explanation of the relationships between the Coulomb force, permittivity, and permeability is provided, demonstrating how these constants relate to the wave equation and the definition of units in electromagnetism.
  • One participant expresses appreciation for the technical explanation while reiterating their interest in the numerical values used in the equations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definitions of permittivity and permeability as constants in the SI system, but there is no consensus on the implications of hypothetical changes to these constants or the fine structure constant. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader implications of such changes.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the definitions of physical constants and the unresolved nature of hypothetical scenarios regarding changes in these constants.

mpolo
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I have a question about permeability and permittivity of free space. Theoretically speaking. If either one or both were to increase in value would that make the speed of light be faster or slower. I know they are constants. I am just curious if they did change what would happen.
 
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Hypothetically, yes since the speed of light is related to them by
$$c=\sqrt{\frac{1}{\epsilon\mu}}$$.
In different materials the permittivity usually becomes larger which is why light travels slower through materials like water, glass, plastic, etc.
 
mpolo said:
I have a question about permeability and permittivity of free space. Theoretically speaking. If either one or both were to increase in value...
In current SI units the permeability and permittivity of free space are exactly defined quantities, as is the speed of light. None of them can change except by action of the BIPM committee. They are not subject to any experimental changes, only changes in the committee's definition.
 
Dale said:
In current SI units the permeability and permittivity of free space are exactly defined quantities, as is the speed of light. None of them can change except by action of the BIPM committee. They are not subject to any experimental changes, only changes in the committee's definition.

So if the speed of light did ever somehow "change", it would be our measure of the meter that would suddenly be off, huh?
 
If the fine structure constant changed, then the number of atoms that light passes in one wavelength of a specified radiation would change.
 
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Could someone please show me an example of the equation above presented by NFuller. The units confuse me a little. Plug in the accepted values so I can see them and the result. I want to try the equation out on my calculator. Thanks.
 
Using the SI in electromagnetism makes it a pretty complicated subject ;-)). Anyway, let's try

The Coulomb force between two point particles (magnitude) in SI units is
$$F=\frac{q_1 q_2}{4 \pi \epsilon_0 r^2}$$
So the dimension for the conversion factor ##\epsilon_0## is
$$[\epsilon_0]=[Q^2 /(r^2 F)]=\text{C}^2 \text{s}^2/ (\text{kg} \; \text{m}^3).$$
Here it's the force between two pieces of current conducting wire defining
$$F=\mu_0 I_1 I_2 L/d \; \Rightarrow \; [\mu_0]=[F/I^2]=\text{kg} \; \text{m}/\text{s}^2 \cdot \text{s}^2/\text{C}^2=\text{kg} \; \text{m}/\text{C}^2.$$
and thus finally
$$[\epsilon_0 \mu_0]=\text{s}^2/\text{m}^2$$
which is the dimension of an inverse squared speed.

Manipulating the free Maxwell equations a bit you get the wave equation
$$(\mu_0 \epsilon_0 \partial_t^2-\Delta) \vec{E}=0,$$
which shows that the phase velocity is indeed ##c=1/\sqrt{\epsilon_0 \mu_0}##.

It's now also very clear that all there is for the vacuum permittivity and permeability is that they are fixed constants defining the system of units: ##\mu_0## is fixed by the definition of the Ampere, i.e., the unit of the electric current. ##c## is fixed through the definition of the unit of length, metre, via the definition of the second, and thus also ##\epsilon_0## is fixed by just the definition of the SI for time, length, mass, and electric current.

Of course, in the medium ##\epsilon=\epsilon_0 \epsilon_r## and ##\mu=\mu_0 \mu_r## are parameters from the constitutive equations of the medium. They are not so fundamental since they are defined from the microscopic theory via linear-response theory, i.e., they are related to the description of the medium for weak em. fields.
 
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impressive piece of work vanhees71. I was just looking for the actual numbers that are used in the equation provided by NFuller. Your full explanation is nice though because it shows the links between different aspects of nature. Thank you.
 

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