PF Style 2026

[sbrothy]

Same sheet for all device rules

Oh really? Well then maybe I can jump that hurdle too....

 

[Mark44]

Huh??? You've totally lost me on this one.

I admit it was somewhat cryptic, and I'm not sure I can do any better. What I meant was that you can't refuse to "play the game" (I mean the game we're all playing on a day to day basis with our lives, jobs, family friends etc.).

People wont have it and will distrust anyone trying to opt out (like a bum refusing to take a job but still thinking they're entitled to your money).

If you "play the game" though, no matter how bad, people will at least respect you for that.

Did that make it clearer? I fear not, but it's the best I can do.

About as clear as mud, but let me take a stab at what I think you're trying to say.

If the general expectation (i.e., playing the game) is that any product needs to change periodically, then people won't trust a product whose creators refuse to make changes. If so, then maybe or maybe not. People are built differently, with some embracing change whether or not the change is an improvement.

 

[CrysPhys]

I admit it was somewhat cryptic, and I'm not sure I can do any better. What I meant was that you can't refuse to "play the game" (I mean the game we're all playing on a day to day basis with our lives, jobs, family friends etc.).

People wont have it and will distrust anyone trying to opt out (like a bum refusing to take a job but still thinking they're entitled to your money).

If you "play the game" though, no matter how bad, people will at least respect you for that.

Did that make it clearer? I fear not, but it's the best I can do.

I won't belabor the point because it's too far off topic (besides, it's been well covered in Atlas Shrugged). Fortunately life isn't as bleak, and people aren't as monolithic, as you portray. If there's only one game in town, and if you can't move to another town, then, yeah, you're stuck.

If I don't like the game or the players I'm playing with, I find another game or different players that I do like. If the ante for playing is too high, I choose not to play. What good is the "respect" of people who don't share my ethics and morals, if it comes at the price of my own self-respect?

------------------------

Back on topic (somewhat). Here's a different analogy. Consider restaurants. There are restaurants that cater to foodies, customers who seek out fresh culinary adventures. These restaurants tend to have a lifetime of around 3 yrs (according to friends of mine who are in the restaurant business). But then there are restaurants that focus on the classics. One of my favorite restaurants has been run by the same husband and wife for more than four decades now. Same facility, remodeled as needed to keep it in good working order. Minor tweaks to the menu, but substantially unchanged. Consistent delicious, well-prepared food. Consistent warm, friendly service. Pivoted to survive the pandemic, when many others folded. My daughter is all grown up now, with kids of her own. She's a self-proclaimed foodie. But when she comes home, she still wants her favorite linguine with white clam sauce at the same restaurant I first took her to when she was a child.

As I mentioned before, PF, and similar forums, are not commercial sites. They are not controlled by the same financial pressures. And as I mentioned above, such forums face the challenge of needing to satisfy a nominally bimodal customer base (users who seek help and users who provide help).

 

[Dale]

Same sheet for all device rules

The dark style works well on both my laptop and my mobile.

 

[sbrothy]

I won't belabor the point because it's too far off topic (besides, it's been well covered in Atlas Shrugged). Fortunately life isn't as bleak, and people aren't as monolithic, as you portray. If there's only one game in town, and if you can't move to another town, then, yeah, you're stuck.

If I don't like the game or the players I'm playing with, I find another game or different players that I do like. If the ante for playing is too high, I choose not to play. What good is the "respect" of people who don't share my ethics and morals, if it comes at the price of my own self-respect?

------------------------

Back on topic (somewhat). Here's a different analogy. Consider restaurants. There are restaurants that cater to foodies, customers who seek out fresh culinary adventures. These restaurants tend to have a lifetime of around 3 yrs (according to friends of mine who are in the restaurant business). But then there are restaurants that focus on the classics. One of my favorite restaurants has been run by the same husband and wife for more than four decades now. Same facility, remodeled as needed to keep it in good working order. Minor tweaks to the menu, but substantially unchanged. Consistent delicious, well-prepared food. Consistent warm, friendly service. Pivoted to survive the pandemic, when many others folded. My daughter is all grown up now, with kids of her own. She's a self-proclaimed foodie. But when she comes home, she still wants her favorite linguine with white clam sauce at the same restaurant I first took her to when she was a child.

As I mentioned before PF, and similar forums, are not commercial sites. They are not controlled by the same financial pressures. And as I mentioned above, such forums face the challenge of needing to satisfy a nominally bimodal customer base (users who seek help and users who provide help).

OK, as I said in my DM I really didn't want to clutter this thread up even more, but I find that when you're comparing my opinions to Ayn Rand's I have to say something (or kinda live with being compared to a certain other, just as despicable, person of Austrian heritage). I think it's somewhat of a jump, even though I meant it at an ontological level.

So, just to make sure you understand I'm not that kind of person I implore you to look at this Civicswatch thread.

I'm not an unconditional fan of how the world works and a lot of the people inhabiting it. But it is like it is.

Not trying to hijack the thread but seriously? Ayn Rand?!

 

[sbrothy]

OK, I might as well call Godwin's Law myself. Sorry.

EDIT: And BTW it was a somewhat tasteless joke. Ignore me.

 

[CrysPhys]

OK, as I said in my DM I really didn't want to clutter this thread up even more, but I find that when you're comparing my opinions to Ayn Rand's I have to say something (or kinda live with being compared to a certain other, just as despicable, person of Austrian heritage). I think it's somewhat of a jump, even though I meant it at an ontological level.

So, just to make sure you understand I'm not that kind of person I implore you to look at this Civicswatch thread.

I'm not an unconditional fan of how the world works and a lot of the people inhabiting it. But it is like it is.

Not trying to hijack the thread but seriously? Ayn Rand?!

OK, I might as well call Godwin's Law myself. Sorry.

EDIT: And BTW it was a somewhat tasteless joke. Ignore me.

* I'll try to keep this as short as possible. I was planning to respond to your DM. But since you've gone public, giving everyone the impression that I've attacked you personally, I need to clear the record.

* I did not compare you to a despicable fiend, for the simple reason that I do not consider Ayn Rand to be a despicable fiend. I don't agree with all her premises (some have major flaws in my opinion) and philosophy, but she does have some valid points.

* I did write that the points you were trying to make (as far as I understood them) were already covered in Atlas Shrugged. By this I mean the following: competence and hard work by themselves are not sufficient to guarantee success in society. Whether you work in academia, industry, or government (especially in government), there is a political hierarchy that you need to navigate to achieve success. Early in my career, a manager (who was Italian-American) told me in a mock Sicilian mobster accent: "You no play-a the game; you no make-a the rules". I served for many years as an industry mentor to STEM students. I helped several navigate the transition to the realities of the workplace once they graduated: they were often totally bewildered by the scenarios they faced.

* You wrote that we all must play the game: if you choose not to play, people will hate and distrust you; but if you choose to play, even badly, people will respect you. But I can choose not to play. Doing so will entail sacrifice, such as being passed over for a promotion or award that I had earned, or not securing the funds that I needed .... I have in fact done this mucho times in the course of my career. If the price of success (in terms of self-respect, personal integrity, ...) was not something I was willing to pay, I simply did not pay it. If people hated me or distrusted me for so doing, so be it. If I would have earned their respect by playing their game, even if I played it badly, then that respect would have had zero value to me.

* Remember the resolution in Atlas Shrugged: a set of people banded together, decided not to play the game according to the rules established by those in power, established a new society, and let the old society die. Of course, this was an exaggerated, melodramatic, grand-scale resolution. But on an individual scale, we can choose not to play the game, as long as we are willing to suffer the consequences.

* I'll end on a note of some (though perhaps only an iota of) relevancy to this thread. Besides PF, there are several other structured forums that I participate in. Overall activity has slowed down; a couple are moribund. A couple of forum admins told me (prior to recent AI developments) that the younger set preferred Facebook and Reddit. I looked at those sites and didn't care for them at all. If I wished to participate in those communities, I would have to play their games. I chose not to play. No loss to me; since the help I provide >> the help I receive.

 

[sbrothy]

* I'll try to keep this as short as possible. I was planning to respond to your DM. But since you've gone public, giving everyone the impression that I've attacked you personally, I need to clear the record.

I agree that was a s...-move on my part. It was just that the mention of Ayn Rand kinda ticked me off. I apologize.

* I did not compare you to a despicable fiend, for the simple reason that I do not consider Ayn Rand to be a despicable fiend. I don't agree with all her premises (some have major flaws in my opinion) and philosophy, but she does have some valid points.

I reluctantly agree that Ayn Rand has some valid points (but she drives laissez faire capitalism to some kind of asymptotic endpoint - and I know that doesn't make sense - ending up with a recipe for a society I don't want to live (or get gassed) in; the problem being is that if you follow her points to their extreme you end up kind of agreeing with the aforementioned Austrian "gentleman".

* I did write that the points you were trying to make (as far as I understood them) were already covered in Atlas Shrugged. By this I mean the following: competence and hard work by themselves are not sufficient to guarantee success in society. Whether you work in academia, industry, or government (especially in government), there is a political hierarchy that you need to navigate to achieve success. Early in my career, a manager (who was Italian-American) told me in a mock Sicilian mobster accent: "You no play-a the game; you no make-a the rules". I served for many years as an industry mentor to STEM students. I helped several navigate the transition to the realities of the workplace once they graduated: they were often totally bewildered by the scenarios they faced.

* You wrote that we all must play the game: if you choose not to play, people will hate and distrust you; but if you choose to play, even badly, people will respect you. But I can choose not to play. Doing so will entail sacrifice, such as being passed over for a promotion or award that I had earned, or not securing the funds that I needed .... I have in fact done this mucho times in the course of my career. If the price of success (in terms of self-respect, personal integrity, ...) was not something I was willing to pay, I simply did not pay it. If people hated me or distrusted me for so doing, so be it. If I would have earned their respect by playing their game, even if I played it badly, then that respect would have had zero value to me.

* Remember the resolution in Atlas Shrugged: a set of people banded together, decided not to play the game according to the rules established by those in power, established a new society, and let the old society die. Of course, this was an exaggerated, melodramatic, grand-scale resolution. But on an individual scale, we can choose not to play the game, as long as we are willing to suffer the consequences.

* I'll end on a note of some (though perhaps only an iota of) relevancy to this thread. Besides PF, there are several other structured forums that I participate in. Overall activity has slowed down; a couple are moribund. A couple of forum admins told me (prior to recent AI developments) that the younger set preferred Facebook and Reddit. I looked at those sites and didn't care for them at all. If I wished to participate in those communities, I would have to play their games. I chose not to play. No loss to me; since the help I provide >> the help I receive.

I must admit I haven't actually read much Ayn Rand myself (not nothing, but not much). I've mostly read what other people wrote about her. I realize this is a shallow standpoint to "discuss" from and I apologize for that too.


Mostly though, I apologize for taking the discussion I starting privately public. Again, that was a s...-move on my part!

 

[CrysPhys]

I must admit I haven't actually read much Ayn Rand myself (not nothing, but not much). I've mostly read what other people wrote about her. I realize this is a shallow standpoint to "discuss" from and I apologize for that too.

I think that explains a lot your extreme reaction. Note carefully my original phrasing:

I won't belabor the point because it's too far off topic (besides, it's been well covered in Atlas Shrugged).

No explicit comparison of you to Ayn Rand; no exposition of her philosophy; no judgement call ... only that your point has been well covered in Atlas Shrugged, which after all is a work of fiction. If you actually read it (which admittedly is a long read), I have a feeling you will find that your initial reaction to my post is entirely unjustified.

Further to your point, I would recommend that you watch the movie The Apartment, in which playing the game hinges on the metaphorical and literal "keys to success" . In the end, the main character decides the price of playing to win is too high: he drops out of the game, takes back a key, and gives back a key. [ETA: And no, I'm not comparing you to Billy Wilder either. ]

Anyway, over and out.

 

[boneh3ad]

I have removed the monospace font

(By a pedantic minority of us.)

 

[Ibix]

This thread is illegible in dark mode. OP has used images for maths, and the darkification of the text has not worked well.

Obviously, they should be using LaTeX, but still.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

This thread is illegible in dark mode. OP has used images for maths, and the darkification of the text has not worked well.

looks like an image transparency problem. not much we can do, but let me see

 

[berkeman]

Obviously, they should be using LaTeX, but still.

I sent them my "LaTeX Tips" DM as soon as I saw the thread post. Hopefully any follow-up replies that they make in the thread will use LaTeX.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Take a look now

 

[Ibix]

Take a look now

All the images have white backgrounds, so are now legible. Thanks!