Physics Physicists and physics majors, was it worth it?

[Zap]

I found out that my advisor is already retired, and there isn't much I can do about the financial thing, other than try to find a quick job elsewhere. I cannot live off of nothing. Tomorrow will be a day I will apply to anything within walking distance. It will only be for December. I am already hired for a TAship in January, which will be a lot more money than my advisor is paying me. I don't trust the guy at all, and I can't keep working for him. Fortunately, I don't need to publish a thesis to graduate. I only need to take one more class. I am learning Python, and I would love to learn more about the machine learning thing. This experience has made me dislike anything related to university. I think learning Python in my free time is the way to go. Thanks for everyone’s inout. This is probably the most stressful period in my life and itwas good to talk to somebody

 

[Vanadium 50]

What country is this in? In the US one cannot simply refuse to pay someone, nor does someone "randomly lose funding".

 

[Zap]

I know. It's ridiculous. I've not yet had someone explain it to me. I just need to get out of this situation ASAP. I will see what my options are after that. My adviser simply blames the receptionists for not doing their jobs, and the receptionists and department head tell me that he is not telling them to hire me in a timely fashion. For example, he tells them to hire me one month after I already started, which then results in a lot of complications. I found out that I have some sort of healthcare. I think it is some form of medicare or medicaid, whichever it is, that has rolled over for the last couple of years. I thought that I had lost that, but I guess not. Most of his students are graduates from other countries, and they are too afraid to make the problem public. I'm not a foreigner, though, and it is my opinion that the situation I am in is unacceptable. So, I will be doing whatever I can to make sure this is dealt with properly.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Again, what country is this in?

We can't help you if you don't provide information - and I am beginning to come around to ZapperZ's position here.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

One big problem with college students and recent graduates these days is they refuse to take personal ownership of their employability.

A college degree is not sufficient to make one appealing to employers.

You need to own your entire resume and make sure you are more appealing than all the mediocre and poor job applicants who also have college degrees. A degree is usually necessary, but rarely sufficient. What makes your resume stand out? What is it about your resume that effectively communicates your excellent work ethic and preparation for the job for which you are applying?

Having served on numerous hiring and interview committees, here are some things we often look for:
1. A degree in an appropriate and sufficiently challenging field.
2. The less work experience an applicant has, the more important the reputation of the degree-granting institution is.
3. The less work experience an applicant has, the more important their GPA is. GPAs below 3.0 never generate excitement or interest on hiring committees. GPAs that are not listed are presumed to be below 3.0.
4. GPAs between 3.0 and 3.5 sometimes generate interest if they are from good institutions in challenging majors: EE or Physics at Texas A&M or GA Tech, for example. A 3.2 GPA in Physics from a lower tier school will not generate much interest unless the applicant pool is fairly weak.
5. Other indicators of excellence, which may include work history or research. Full time employment is not necessary from a recent graduate, but a real work or research history provides both indications of quality as well as potential references.
6. Indicators of maturity and seriousness. No employer wants employees who are better at finding excuses for failure than ways to succeed. PF posts are fairly anonymous, but if an employer senses excuse making like that demonstrated in many of the above posts, they lose enthusiasm for a potential employee. What is it about your resume, interview, references, and social media that communicate to potential employers that you are much more strongly inclined to solve problems for your employer than to find excuses?

 

[StatGuy2000]

What country is this in? In the US one cannot simply refuse to pay someone, nor does someone "randomly lose funding".

All of the posts that @Zap gave here indicate that he (or she -- unless if stated earlier, I can't figure out the gender of @Zap) is living in the US and is studying at an American college/university.

 

[Dr Transport]

I think this thread has gone on long enough, it appears that @Zap isn't happy with his/her choice of major and needs to come to grips with their future.

 

[symbolipoint]

I think this thread has gone on long enough, it appears that @Zap isn't happy with his/her choice of major and needs to come to grips with their future.

It is not so clear. The last few posts indicate that Zap has more deciding and exploring to do.

 

[Zap]

I'm in the US. I decided just to look for another job. I don't want to report my adviser, again. The situation is pretty complex. I'd rather just resign on fair terms. Seeking revenge will probably make matters worse. There's more to it than the financial thing, but that felt like the last straw for me. It's not the first time it's happened, and I've been miserable working for him for awhile.

I think my resume is okay. I know it's not the best. I lack relevant experience. I have research experience, but it's pretty weak, in my opinion. I often have a hard time trying to make it sound worthwhile, but I try, and I suppose it's better than nothing. I have an equivalent amount of teaching and tutoring experience. My undergraduate GPA is 3.66. My graduate GPA is not so hot. It's currently a 3.2. However, it should increase, possibly to 3.5, before graduation.

My adviser wants me to publish this really obscure thesis, but I don't have much faith or interest in it. I don't feel like showing up to the lab anymore. I can work part time at McDonald's and earn the same, have a steady paycheck and experience less pressure. So, there's no incentive to stay. I was talking to professors in other departments, and almost started working with this dude in optics, but I decided to stay in this lab, thinking that publishing that paper was more important. But after this incident, I regret it.

Maybe, I can volunteer in more interesting research next semester during my TA assignment. I don't think an obscure paper that I doubt is publishable is all that important. Maybe, I'm wrong, but in any case, I don't want to force myself to continue doing something I don't like when I'm getting paid scraps for it in some unpredictable manner that is causing me more stress than it's worth.

I'd really like to shadow a few other professors around campus during my TAship to get a feel for what I actually might enjoy doing, instead. The department head knows that my adviser has not been treating me fairly. He already hired me as full time TA next semester. I don't even have to be a full time student, and I'm only teaching two labs. So, I will have extra time and extra money. I just need to get through this month. Good looking out, department head.

At least someone around here is helping me out. The physics and chemistry department heads really do care about the students. I can tell that. Not all of the professors do, though. So, I am thankful that I have a relationship with the heads. The head of physics comes back from sabbatical next semester. It will be good to reconnect with him. I consider him more-so my true adviser than my so-called adviser. I wanted to RA with him, but the dude went on sabbatical.

Things will be better next semester. With the thesis out of the way and stress levels down, I can focus on the qualifying exam and gtfo of here. I failed it the first time, because I didn't study. But, I feel like I will have a greater purpose once I get out of this lab. I'm actually excited about working at McDonald's or some place like that and trying something new. Literally, anything is better than that lab.

So, I've wrote my life's story. I'm glad people here were interested. These discussions are therapeutic. I appreciate you guys and/or girls (unlikely) hearing me out. I'm sure there is a lesson to be found in my experience.Zap.

 

[plasmon_shmasmon]

I've been following this for a bit. I think the lessons to learn come partly from posts #191 and #197-199.

In general, one should try to be positive and look for things to gain from every experience. And it takes some thoughtfulness to spin your experiences into an effective resume. To bring it back to the theme of this thread, yes I think a physics major is worth it, but you have to make it worth it with an eye towards the economy that we all live in (i.e., by focusing on the skills that YOU think YOU should gain along the way). A physics major in and of itself will not get you employed, as has been stated numerous times in this thread.

One thing that I am unsure about is whether you should look for "any" employment out there. You said that you're almost 30, and I think it will be hard to get back into the scientific/technical "lane" if you take a random, unrelated job (maybe I'm wrong?). What about unemployment (for $$ I mean) while you keep figuring it out?

Finally, I wanted to note that my grad school experience was similar to yours in some ways. There were some months I didn't get payed (but that was resolved) and many semesters when I didn't know what assignment I was going to have (TA or RA) or the amount that my paycheck was going to be until the semester started. It's hard to describe how stressful this is (especially because I have a wife and a child) and I can appreciate your frustration. Everyone knows that grad students are payed very minimally (something that is usually compensated by the training that we gain and by tuition remission, etc.), but people don't realize how damaging financial uncertainty is to your spirit. I made it through okay and have a great job in education, but there were many times that I was uncertain that it would work out.

 

[Charles Link]

@Zap Being a research assistant and working for a university professor is something that really isn't for everyone. There is still the possibility you could do quite well in some highly technical job, such as applied research in industry, or writing software for a company that specializes in that area. I am currently retired, but I think I was very successful as a researcher in industry, and I never got myself hooked up with a professor as a graduate student as an R.A. (I got my M.S., and did an additional year of coursework after that). $\\$ As an undergraduate=during my senior year, I did a special research project working under a professor as a credit for a course, and it proved to be extremely difficult. I received an "A" for the effort, but it really made me very reluctant to put myself in the position of having to work for that kind of authority figure on a daily basis. There is much more to life than just trying to keep a Ph.D. advisor happy. Some people adapt well to being an R.A., but it wasn't for me. $\\$ Hopefully you have a very successful career ahead of you. It sounds like you enjoy working, and making yourself useful. I also had a couple of what could be considered rather menial jobs, but I enjoyed them just the same. In one case, I was a part-time janitor/custodian for the Salvation Army when I was out of work and couldn't find anything else, and I found the work quite rewarding. It didn't pay a lot, so the household was in financial straits at the time, but it was still very good work. Anyway, best of luck to you.

 

[Zap]

I'm sorry, but I don't feel as though I am gaining any valuable training and my tuition is not waived, so there is absolutely no reason to continue with the RAship. I already got an interview at Whataburger, and I am honestly more excited about that than my thesis project. I can't go back to that lab. I will be better off teaching myself some more programming than continue in that lab. I don't like it there. I don't understand the point in forcing myself to be there. It's clearly not something I want a career in.

 

[Zap]

They have data science and data mining research going on here. I was granted permission to shadow a data mining lab. I’m going to go ahead and do that while I work whataburger. That will be vital experience. Working as a chemical technician is not.

 

[russ_watters]

Again, what country is this in?

We can't help you if you don't provide information - and I am beginning to come around to ZapperZ's position here.

Post #164 says Louisville.

...which, btw, has free mental health services for all students. I don't think @Zap wants help, just sympathy/to vent. Sad.

 

[Zap]

My school doesn't provide healthcare. I don't live in Louisville. The university there is the only one in the nation that offers an ABET accredited MS program in electrical engineering, according to the ABET website. I can become an assistant manager of Whataburger after a few weeks. The interview went well.

 

[StatGuy2000]

My school doesn't provide healthcare. I don't live in Louisville. The university there is the only one in the nation that offers an ABET accredited MS program in electrical engineering, according to the ABET website. I can become an assistant manager of Whataburger after a few weeks. The interview went well.

If you don't mind my asking, where do you live?

 

[Zap]

Well. My advisor dropped my check by another 200 dollars. At this point, I am making well below minimum wage, and half the amount of a TA. I didn't make enough money to pay tuition. I've no idea how that will effect me next semester. I wrote him an email explaining that I am not interested in his research or working with him and am moving on. Whataburger apparently found someone more qualified. I've no expectations for next semester. I'll just see what happens.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

There are resources and laws protecting you, if payment that you worked for is being withheld from you. Call OSHA. I find it hard to believe that an adult in college does not know his workers rights...

 

[russ_watters]

Well. My advisor dropped my check by another 200 dollars.

Did he give a reason for this?

 

[Zap]

It's a complicated situation. The reason was some kind of error in communication. I think it is just negligence on his part. I'm not sure. I don't really care, anymore. I'm moving on.

I think I've figured it out. You actually can do anything with a physics degree. You can become an electrical engineer, a mechanical engineer, a chemical engineer, a software engineer, a software developer, a data scientist, a financial analyst or whatever with a degree in physics. If you look at the degree requirements for these positions, a BS, MS or PhD in physics is usually listed. However, the degree alone will not get you into any of these jobs, or any job at all. You need to supplement your degree with experience, additional coursework or independent projects that specifically target one of these career paths.

So, nobody lied to us when they said that we can do anything with a physics degree. It just requires more (or less, in my opinion) than simply finishing school, getting an award, tutoring, membership to some random group and participating in some obscure science research. That doesn't target any specific job outside of obscure academic research, in which I suspect there isn't a high demand or a significant number of available positions. I digress. I am pursuing the data analyst route. I am feeling more confident about it since leaving that god awful lab. I can focus more on building the skills desirable in that field. An MS in physics fulfills the education requirements for a data analyst position. I just need to work on developing the skillset the position is looking for.

I plan to take a graduate level statistical analysis class in R programming this semester, advanced computational physics and a class in database systems. I will also be shadowing a laboratory that specializes in data mining and data science research. At the time of graduation, I will be able to put R programming, Python programming, advanced numerical methods, database systems and hopefully some data science assignment I can do during my volunteer work on my resume. If you couple that with a master's in physics, I think there is hope for a brighter future.

I suspect some of you are probably thinking, 'O God, data analyst? What a boring job. Does he know what he's getting into?' During my research, I primarily analyzed experimental data, and that was the only thing I enjoyed about it. I actually enjoy analyzing large and messy data, but that lab does not focus on data analysis. It's more about quality assurance on chemical instruments. I was the only one creating data analysis algorithms and doing statistics on it, simply because I enjoyed it. A few of my labmates actually tried to persuade me to stop doing rigorous data analysis because it wasn't necessary. They are satisfied with qualitative results, but I continued. There's nothing new I can learn or gain in data analysis if I stay there. I am the expert on it in the lab. It makes sense to leave even without the financial issues. I've been reading a bit on statistical learning, and I've been thoroughly enjoying it. I really think this could be the right career path for me.

 

[Locrian]

I suspect some of you are probably thinking, 'O God, data analyst? What a boring job. Does he know what he's getting into?'

And with enough experience it could get worse. You may find yourself doing things like building software systems modeling human behavior, applying novel mathematical solutions to optimize revenue management systems, using monte carlo simulations to minimize risk in financial institutions or leveraging operations research to improve care for elderly. I've seen people do all of those, and it's just awful.

I know people who slog into work every day to leverage real time data streams in an effort to reduce downtime of world class theme park rides, and still others who optimize algorithms that recommend clothing and accessories to clients. Have you ever talked to anyone who researches deep learning to measure emotional reactions to movies? I mean, they seem like they enjoy their job, but I'm sure it's just a facade.

And if things go really south, you may end up in. . . management. Then you'll be asking questions like "what's the role of modern analytics (/AI) in our organization?" and "how do we apply modern devops processes to our science processes?" and "how do I best support the scientists who work for me?" If things get that bad, you just have to take a moment and look at your paycheck and hope the mountain of money you're being paid makes it all worth it.

May you never experience any of the horrors I've written of here.

 

[gmax137]

If things get that bad...

... take a quick break to check PF for new posts!

 

[Zap]

Right. Well, when I told my brother's wife, who is an epidemiologist, that I wanted to be a data analyst, she told me that it was boring and miserable. I also have a friend who at one time was a statistician who told me it was miserable work. I didn't receive much support to pursue data analysis, but it does seem like a pretty good field.

Do you recommend one of these data science bootcamps? Are they legit? I was accepted into the SpringBoard data science bootcamp. What attracted me to it was that they defer your payment of the program until you find a job and offer your money back if you do not find a job in data science or data analytics after completion of the program, but it's about nine thousand dollars and six months long. I'm not sure if it's worth it or whether it is necessary.

 

[Locrian]

Do you recommend one of these data science bootcamps? Are they legit?

I wouldn't pay $9k for any of them that I've seen - but importantly I've never looked at that one. The value of saying you've been through that course is near zero, so you have to get $9k of learnings you couldn't have gotten for much less elsewhere online.

How much is Georgia Tech's online Master of Analytics degree? I'd check that, just to compare.

 

[Zap]

That's what I figured. They have online MS degrees in data science for around the same price, usually granted by a university computer science or electrical engineering department. I think I'm going to continue taking a few extra classes and shadowing a data science lab. I think those bootcamps might be helpful, but probably not necessary. There are also courses available online for 30 bucks a month, as well. However, an MS in data science or analytics and self study do not have a job guarantee.

Do you think I will be employable in the data science or data analyst field after I graduate, if I embark on my plan to take a graduate level R programming and database course and volunteer in a data mining lab? I've already taking a Python course and am more or less proficient in Python. I think I could get a job as a data analyst, but I'm not sure about data science. I'm talking to an insurance company right now, who seems interested in hiring me as a technical analyst. I wouldn't mind getting started with that.

There are a lot of opportunities for lower level analyst roles, and I already feel confident that I can fulfill the role of analyst with minimal training. I'm also talking to this dude about a cool job that combines materials science spectroscopy with database programming that is still open, as far as I know.

 

[Locrian]

Do you think I will be employable in the data science or data analyst field after I graduate,

No idea, because there's a bunch of critical things I'm not going to know over the internet. Just remember that the variance of quality of jobs within fields can be very high, so be willing to make that first job work, even if it isn't ideal.

I'd think how successful you'll be will ultimately be will depend on your ability to quickly improve your technical skills, your ability to spot interesting opportunities, your willingness to make sacrifices to grab those opportunities, and your ability to build your soft skills*.

Good luck, and whatever path you choose, let us know how it goes.

*There's nothing soft about soft skills. What people call "soft" skills are actually a set of behaviors that require a great deal of discipline and practice to master, not unlike technical skills.

 

[Zap]

I am taking all those classes, and it hasn't been easy. I said I took a break from applying to jobs, but that wasn't just to snooze. I stacked on a graduate level CS class in artificial intelligence. Instead of volunteering in a data mining lab, I wound up in a computational chemistry lab, but I've barely had any time to do any volunteering. I basically just show up to the meetings. Everyday I am struggling just to get my homework done. I'm really not sure if this was a good idea. Programming AI is not easy with just one freshman level intro to Python class as the entirety of my programming experience, but so far I have been getting through it, and my programming skills have been improving. So far, I have a B in the class, and after every homework I cannot believe that I actually completed it.

For the last homework, I was suppose to develop a search algorithm to solve the map coloring constraint satisfaction problem using depth first search, backtracking and forward checking. My dumb algorithm selects the most constrained node as the root and then just goes straight down the search tree to a solution. It solves the map coloring problem, but it doesn't really backtrack or forward check. Once it assigns a color to a node, it never goes back to it or reassigns it. It's just a depth first graph search that uses a function of constraint. I just couldn't figure out how to program the additional stuff in time. If the dude nails me on that, I could be looking at a C.

It's insane, because I see that a lot of CS majors are struggling in the class. My dumb arse is practically computer illiterate compared to them. The average on the midterm was a 67. I got a 67, and that put me at a low B for my total grade in the class. Midterms are done with, so I can't turn back now. Maybe, if I have time, I can resubmit my algorithm for the map coloring problem if I get nailed. After all, I took this class to learn, not to take a stupid test and get an A on my report card.

 

[Zap]

So, the TA most definitely did not catch that my program did not actually implement the assigned algorithms and just checked whether it compiled and solved the problem, because I got over 100 percent and now have an A overall in the class. The only class I may get a bad grade in is my only physics class, because frankly at this point I hate physics, and I don't want to devote one minute of my time to it.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

So, the TA most definitely did not catch that my program did not actually implement the assigned algorithms and just checked whether it compiled and solved the problem, because I got over 100 percent and now have an A overall in the class. The only class I may get a bad grade in is my only physics class, because frankly at this point I hate physics, and I don't want to devote one minute of my time to it.

In real life, most jobs will require the employee to do things you don't like. This is the adult world.

The key is finding a job where stuff you don't like is less than 20% of your working time. It will never be zero.

 

[Zap]

In real life, most jobs will require the employee to do things you don't like. This is the adult world.

The key is finding a job where stuff you don't like is less than 20% of your working time. It will never be zero.

In "real life," you get paid for the work you do, instead of having to pay for the work you have to do. I don't hate physics, I just don't have the time to invest in it this semester, and I don't have much of an interest in it anymore. The physics department is god awful when it comes to homework, and there isn't enough time in my schedule for it. Of course, if physics student was a real job that paid the bills, I wouldn't be so critical, but I am paying around a grand to take a class I don't want to take and to do something that I don't want to do, and I'm not getting a whole lot out of it. Makes no sense to me. It was a terrible idea to start the program. I made a mistake.

 

[Zap]

So the moderators deleted my post comparing school with slavery. School turns you into a debt slave. Why are we trying to keep it a secret? The kids need to know that school is a debt trap. Unless they are capable of creating a serious fool-proof plan, the school will rip them off. I won't lie to our students.

 

[Marisa5]

So the moderators deleted my post comparing school with slavery. School turns you into a debt slave. Why are we trying to keep it a secret? The kids need to know that school is a debt trap. Unless they are capable of creating a serious fool-proof plan, the school will rip them off. I won't lie to our students.

How much is it worth it to you to pursue the career you want? I understand college is ridiculously expensive, but the question still holds in my opinion. When you're old and reflecting on your life, what decisions will you wish you had made?

 

[symbolipoint]

I do not know what was removed since I do not remember if I saw & read it or not, but well said in what is currently said.

 

[jedishrfu]

Since this thread has run its course, it’s time to thank everyone who contributed and close it with one final comment.

We need formal college education. It opens doors into better paying jobs. While it’s true, college is getting more expensive every year but so are many other things of value.

College is what you make of it. It is not like high school where teachers will get on your case if you skip classes although it’s true some profs still insist you attend their lectures and you should since you’re paying for this privilege. Sometimes you need to hustle, to get motivated to succeed even if you don’t like what you’re doing but you need to keep your mind on the goal of graduating and nothing else.

College can put you into debt but if you’ve studied hard and actually achieved your degree you will find a job. Sometimes the choice of field can make finding jobs tougher but it’s something you should have checked into while you were still in school.

I graduated in the 70’s when college was a lot cheaper. I got some help from the state and was in debt for $8000 in student loans but paid them off within six months of graduating. Wages were a lot lower too and the job I had was below my potential but it still helped me to pay them off before the interest kicked in.

As I look at it now, it was a good move back then I was somewhat burnt out from studying physics and working 20 to 30 hours per week in a cheap department store as a stock clerk. I kept my eye on the goal and achieved it even while doubting my own skills.

Lastly, college is not slavery. Debts are debts, they are not slavery. Slavery was a terribly horrific blight on American history. For college or debt, you can always walk away. For sure there are consequences but you still have your freedom to choose. Slaves had no such freedom.

To call your experience slavery is to cheapen the true meaning of slavery. If you had experienced it first hand you would never have used this worse than bad analogy. Let's focus back on your goal, stop complaining and get your degree.