Physics Physicists and physics majors, was it worth it?

[jasonRF]

That's why I think there are better degrees than physics out there. Because being employable with physics degree requires to be much more smarter about your career and much more work than any other more professional degree.

I will agree that a physics major needs to be a lot smarter about their careers than an electrical engineering major. I will disagree that it is much much more work overall. When I studied engineering, my major required me to take 2-3 more credits per semester than a physics major had to take. If a physics major simply added a handful of computer science (or engineering, or ...) courses on top of their current curriculum, I would think it would be a significant improvement on their marketability and would be roughly the same workload as an engineering degree.

By the way, this thread has been interesting. I chose engineering not because I had some insight into what I wanted to do 10 years later, but because I simply liked math and science. I thought physics and engineering sounded about equally interesting, so my father, an economist, pointed me towards engineering. Did I have second thoughts along the way? Sure. I even specialized in plasma physics in EE grad school. But I think I received the right advice given I wasn't particularly driven or passionate about physics.

jason

 

[Dr. Courtney]

You really had very good teachers.

I did, and I am grateful for that. But my college profs provided opportunities for things like programming, electronics, machining, high vacuum, and instrumentation skills. They didn't make students do those things. I chose to learn those things, simply because my profs told me they were valuable.

I work hard to provide lots of those same opportunities to students I work with. But most students I work with take the easier approach (path of least resistance) rather than learning new skills. I talk about the value of skills in the above areas, but many times students will pick a different project or a path through the current project where they can avoid learning these valuable skills. I give my students tremendous flexibility on how the division of labor plays out over the course of the project. I never say, "You need to master this instrumentation" or "you need to write the program for the data acquisition/analysis." And on most projects, I'm still the main programmer and the main instrumentation guy. I still spend the most time at the lathe.

I would bet that if most physics graduates honestly examined their overall experiences, they would see that they did have some opportunities to develop more marketable skills in programming, electronics, instrumentation, etc. but that they chose an easier path.

 

[Andy Resnick]

However I do think that if you pay 200k$ for your education then it should provide you with marketable skills and good job opportunities if you are not lazy.

This single sentence summarizes the consumerist-transactional approach to higher education. 30+ years of concerted effort to transform Universities into Businesses based on a presumed transaction that exchanges money for knowledge has resulted in widespread dissatisfaction and dysfunction.

 

[CrysPhys]

He was smarter; or just more talented than most, and made very fortunate decisions.

If "very fortunate" means "hey, he lucked out", then I don't agree. Sure, luck always comes into play, but Dr. Courtney's recap indicates he made decisions that were well-thought-out, carefully considered, and deliberate.

 

[CrysPhys]

I understand from this thread that most of you who find physics degree useful do so, because you graduated from good universities with good teachers and strong physics program.

Isn't this pretty much true for any field, though? You don't increase your chances of success by graduating from bad universities with bad teachers and weak programs (in whatever field).

 

[CrysPhys]

Some general observations from this thread as to whether a degree in physics is "worth it"...

1. There are varying opinions on the matter. For some people it has worked out very well. Others have not found their experience to be particularly useful in the long term, particularly in terms of finding employment, and therefore feel as though pursuing a professional or less academically-oriented degree may have been a better option.
2. Factors that affect this diversity in experience seem to include:
   - the overall quality of the physics program
   - the structure of the physics program and the extent to which marketable skills are developed within it
   - the quality of the instructors
   - the "entrepreneurial" nature of the individual student
   - the student's expectations going in

For a student considering a physics degree, it is therefore important to consider these factors when selecting a program.

Good recap. In 2., I would add the following:

- country in which you studied (there seems to be quite a variation in programs among different countries)
- country in which you seek employment
- how flexible and accommodating you are when seeking employment (this is different from being "entrepreneurial"; if you take the attitude, "Hey I spent X $ and Y years earning a __ degree in physics, so I'm entitled to a job in physics, you're likely to be disappointed).
- timing (during some periods, employment in specific sectors has been relatively stable; during other periods, relatively volatile)

 

[Rika]

I will agree that a physics major needs to be a lot smarter about their careers than an electrical engineering major. I will disagree that it is much much more work overall. When I studied engineering, my major required me to take 2-3 more credits per semester than a physics major had to take. If a physics major simply added a handful of computer science (or engineering, or ...) courses on top of their current curriculum, I would think it would be a significant improvement on their marketability and would be roughly the same workload as an engineering degree.

It really depends on education system. Like I said before outside of US you rarely have a chance to shape your curriculum and take additional classes outside of your major. In Bologna Process you have around 30 ECTS points per semester so the amount of classes/credit hours is the same and if you study physics you have 30 credits of physics classes.

I would bet that if most physics graduates honestly examined their overall experiences, they would see that they did have some opportunities to develop more marketable skills in programming, electronics, instrumentation, etc. but that they chose an easier path.

Some students are lazy or simply went to college because they were expected to not because they wanted. Other feel discouraged because subject is taught poorly. I was terrible coder so I didn't even bother with programming - not that I had a lot of chances to do so. But it's good to have opportunity. Whenever you use it it's up to you but without it there is little you can do.

This single sentence summarizes the consumerist-transactional approach to higher education. 30+ years of concerted effort to transform Universities into Businesses based on a presumed transaction that exchanges money for knowledge has resulted in widespread dissatisfaction and dysfunction.

But do you believe education is worth 200k$ and carrying student's loan your whole life? In my country it's free, in other European countries it's either free or really cheap. If you invest a lot of money in your education I think it's ok to expect something in return - rare skills or networking opportunities - something that would be ground-breaking for your career. Otherwise in the age of Coursera - what's the point?

Isn't this pretty much true for any field, though? You don't increase your chances of success by graduating from bad universities with bad teachers and weak programs (in whatever field).

Not exactly. Graduating from average university in let's say computer science will secure you position as software developer or QA. Maybe not in Google but job market is so great and companies so desperate that anyone who can code will make it. In my field - art&design you don't even need college degree because the only thing that matters is portfolio. Unlike STEM you can get excellent education outside of college so quality of your university doesn't really matter. Some professionals from US are saying you should get your education in solid non-degree institution like ateliers because art school is so expensive that it's not worth it. So in many cases quality of university education is not deciding factor. But in physics and other academic fields it is.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

He was smarter; or just more talented than most, and made very fortunate decisions.

None of the above. I worked harder during my undergraduate years than 99.9% of the other students I have ever met or known. I got good advice from my profs and I followed it.

This single sentence summarizes the consumerist-transactional approach to higher education. 30+ years of concerted effort to transform Universities into Businesses based on a presumed transaction that exchanges money for knowledge has resulted in widespread dissatisfaction and dysfunction.

That money only buys the opportunity to gain knowledge. Most college students prefer not to avail themselves of that opportunity, and most profs allow them to get a degree with only a fraction of the knowledge that they could have had.

As my wife has said about her undergrad degree at Michigan State, "You can get a very good education there, but no one is going to make you."

 

[Amrator]

Some students are lazy or simply went to college because they were expected to not because they wanted. Other feel discouraged because subject is taught poorly. I was terrible coder so I didn't even bother with programming - not that I had a lot of chances to do so. But it's good to have opportunity. Whenever you use it it's up to you but without it there is little you can do.

That's not a good excuse to not continue programming. There's something called PRACTICE.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If "very fortunate" means "hey, he lucked out", then I don't agree. Sure, luck always comes into play

Providence is always on the side of the biggest battalions.

 

[symbolipoint]

If "very fortunate" means "hey, he lucked out", then I don't agree. Sure, luck always comes into play, but Dr. Courtney's recap indicates he made decisions that were well-thought-out, carefully considered, and deliberate.

Maybe. That would be for Dr.Courtney to tell us.

 

[symbolipoint]

... and finally explained later to us:↑from symbolipoint:

He was smarter; or just more talented than most, and made very fortunate decisions.

Dr. Courtney said:

None of the above. I worked harder during my undergraduate years than 99.9% of the other students I have ever met or known. I got good advice from my profs and I followed it.

 

[Rika]

None of the above. I worked harder during my undergraduate years than 99.9% of the other students I have ever met or known. I got good advice from my profs and I followed it.

@jasonRF see that? I'm not saying it's ok to be lazy but with other degrees you don't need to be on absolute top when it comes to hard work in order to succeed.

That's not a good excuse to not continue programming. There's something called PRACTICE.

Totally missed my point. I graduated from high school with some programming experience like C++ and I knew it was not my cup of tea (probably if I knew back then that programming is the only viable career path for physics majors I would never study it) . Yes - I was doing some programming when it was needed but I didn't enjoy it and couldn't imagine rest of my life as software developer so as you can guess - I didn't pursue it outside of my major. I probably studied physics because I was blinded by pop sci books and movies to begin with. However my degree didn't provided you with opportunity to learn programming if you wanted to anyway. I had only 2 MATLAB classes and it was just like "write program for a next week, see you later" - most of my peers felt discouraged afterwards to pursue programming on their own.

 

[Andy Resnick]

But do you believe education is worth 200k$ and carrying student's loan your whole life? In my country it's free, in other European countries it's either free or really cheap. If you invest a lot of money in your education I think it's ok to expect something in return - rare skills or networking opportunities - something that would be ground-breaking for your career. Otherwise in the age of Coursera - what's the point?

Anything is worth only what someone is willing to pay. The value of a particular educational experience to a particular person is subjective.

You can "invest" a lot of money in books- does that mean it's ok to expect that you master the contents?

 

[Vanadium 50]

You can "invest" a lot of money in books- does that mean it's ok to expect that you master the contents?

I just spent a ton of money on a cello. Why can't I play like Yo-Yo Ma?

 

[StatGuy2000]

I just spent a ton of money on a cello. Why can't I play like Yo-Yo Ma?

Vanadium 50, what exactly is the point are you trying to make here? That spending money on something is only meaningful if you practice on what you learn?

Well, duh!

The whole point of this thread is whether studying physics in university can lead to good outcomes aka lead to meaningful, well-paid employment upon graduation that is at least somewhat related to what one has studied. Frankly, you work as a physicist today, so a physics degree had value for you. But given that you're an older man, your views may not be that current.

 

[Dr Transport]

I will agree that a physics major needs to be a lot smarter about their careers than an electrical engineering major...

Exactly, as a physics major you can't expect to directly compete with an EE etc in a position that entails pure knowledge in that discipline. You have to be smart about the positions you apply for, look at the majors/degrees they are looking at, if the position is looking for an electrical engineer and that is the only degree they are looking for. I remember vividly the position I took after graduate school, it was looking for someone who understood electromagnetics and the degree required was any ABET engineering degree, math, physics or computer science. The kicker was that they wanted someone who had worked with unix and who wasn't afraid to learn about design work. I have spent the past almost 20 years working in an area where there are prevalently 6 degrees, mechanical, electrical, physics, math, computer engineering and optics.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Vanadium 50, what exactly is the point are you trying to make here? That spending money on something is only meaningful if you practice on what you learn?

Well, duh!

My dad emphasized the importance of education, but he was always careful to put his greatest emphasis on the importance of hard work. As I've matured and past the age of 50, I often summarized my dad's insight with the proverb "All hard work brings a profit" when students express concerns regarding which STEM path might yield a more profitable outcome than another. Many more STEM majors are underemployed after graduation due to their work ethic in college (drinking, partying, gaming, otherwise wasting time) than due to their choice of majors (engineering vs physics, etc.)

@jasonRF see that? I'm not saying it's ok to be lazy but with other degrees you don't need to be on absolute top when it comes to hard work in order to succeed.

My need to work so hard in college was more related to my laziness in high school rather than majoring in physics instead of engineering. I did less than 10 hours of work (total) at home in 4 years of high school, only had 3 years of high school math, and managed to get to college Calculus without really knowing what a function was. It is very hard to succeed in any STEM major when one is still struggling with algebra.

With the weak foundation from a poor work ethic and a Louisiana public school that let met get away with it, a successful career in Mech E or EE would have required the same level of effort, maybe more. What I accomplished in college was the academic equivalent of going from a 300 lb slob to a competitive NCAA athlete. That's going to be hard regardless of whether one is a gymnast, tennis player, or sprinter.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Vanadium 50, what exactly is the point are you trying to make here?

The point is that spending $200,000 on a degree does not guarantee you a job, just like spending a million on a cello does not guarantee you anything either.

But given that you're an older man, your views may not be that current.

They aren't. I got my PhD in just about the worst possible time employment-wise. AT&T had broken up a decade earlier and Bell Labs and Bellcore were shedding physicists as fast as they could (and universities were gobbling up the best of them). The SSC was just about to be cancelled. SDI was ending. Aerospace and defense were contracting - the "peace dividend". The unemployment rate was close to 8%, which didn't happen before since the Great Depression and wouldn't happen again until 2008.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

A musician named Keith Green had a quote, "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger."

Perhaps we need a corollary:

Going to college (and majoring in physics) doesn't make you a physicist and more than buying a cello makes you a musician. There is an internal transition that has to happen that is the responsibility of the student.

In music and sports, it is painfully obvious when the money has not accomplished the goal. In physics and engineering, the lack of the internal transition is harder to see, but employers usually see it within the first year of employment.

 

[Locrian]

Some general observations from this thread as to whether a degree in physics is "worth it"...

1. There are varying opinions on the matter. For some people it has worked out very well. Others have not found their experience to be particularly useful in the long term, particularly in terms of finding employment, and therefore feel as though pursuing a professional or less academically-oriented degree may have been a better option.
2. Factors that affect this diversity in experience seem to include:
   - the overall quality of the physics program
   - the structure of the physics program and the extent to which marketable skills are developed within it
   - the quality of the instructors
   - the "entrepreneurial" nature of the individual student
   - the student's expectations going in

For a student considering a physics degree, it is therefore important to consider these factors when selecting a program.

This is a really good post, and I agree.

One conclusion from this: reducing student's expectations would be a solid way to improve their experience. I'm on board with this; let's see if we can get some university websites to assist.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The point is that spending $200,000 on a degree does not guarantee you a job, just like spending a million on a cello does not guarantee you anything either.

Then the obvious corollary is the following: what good is spending $200,000 on a university degree out of one's own pocket (or getting into debt to do so)?

(BTW, this is an argument for reducing the burden of post-secondary education on students through increased funding to post-secondary education and easing the meteoric rise in tuition)

They aren't. I got my PhD in just about the worst possible time employment-wise. AT&T had broken up a decade earlier and Bell Labs and Bellcore were shedding physicists as fast as they could (and universities were gobbling up the best of them). The SSC was just about to be cancelled. SDI was ending. Aerospace and defense were contracting - the "peace dividend". The unemployment rate was close to 8%, which didn't happen before since the Great Depression and wouldn't happen again until 2008.

But you had also completed your undergraduate education (I presume in the US, although the situation is similar in a number of countries like Canada and the UK) at a time when college/university was more affordable, and students weren't burdened with the massive debt loads that current graduates face. So even though employment-wise you faced a tough period (the late 80s and early 90s I presume), at least I presume you weren't in so much debt!

 

[Vanadium 50]

what good is spending $200,000 on a university degree out of one's own pocket (or getting into debt to do so)?

That is a very good question. I would go a step further - I wouldn't spend $200,000 on anything whatsoever without understanding what good it is or whether I could achieve those goals some less expensive way.

at least I presume you weren't in so much debt!

I graduated with (inflation-adjusted) 9% less debt than today's average student from the same college. But then student loan rates were more like 10% than 4% today.

 

[Rika]

You can "invest" a lot of money in books- does that mean it's ok to expect that you master the contents?

I just spent a ton of money on a cello. Why can't I play like Yo-Yo Ma?

It's all true however not every book has good content that is worth mastering. If you spend money on a cello lessons, work hard and there is no progress then there is huge chance that lessons are not taught very well. There are classes that are taught badly or content is useless and you "work hard" because it's very time-consuming but in reality you don't learn anything useful. You can't blame students for everything.

I believe I didn't succeed with physics degree not because I was lazy (because I wasn't) but because it wasn't degree suitable for my needs and what I wanted to do.

My dad emphasized the importance of education, but he was always careful to put his greatest emphasis on the importance of hard work. As I've matured and past the age of 50, I often summarized my dad's insight with the proverb "All hard work brings a profit" when students express concerns regarding which STEM path might yield a more profitable outcome than another. Many more STEM majors are underemployed after graduation due to their work ethic in college (drinking, partying, gaming, otherwise wasting time) than due to their choice of majors (engineering vs physics, etc.)

True but I think it's not only important to work hard but also work smart. I really don't believe that I've put that much more effort in my 2nd school comparing to my physics degree but I was simply smarter about it. I've worked hard (probably harder than most of my peers) in order to do what I wanted to and there was no compromises when it comes to my career so it's not like I've set my bar lower. But I was very effective about it, I didn't waste my time for useless stuff. Doing barely minimum in useless classes, picking the best education available out there, even commuting half a day if it was needed. There is no value to hard work if you are not smart about it.

In this thread we all talk about getting additional education/classes outside of physics curriculum in order to become more marketable. It's proof that education/knowledge that comes solely from physics classes is not enough, not valuable as much as engineering or CS on job market. And that is something that is worth considering when choosing major.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

In this thread we all talk about getting additional education/classes outside of physics curriculum in order to become more marketable. It's proof that education/knowledge that comes solely from physics classes is not enough, not valuable as much as engineering or CS on job market. And that is something that is worth considering when choosing major.

You reek of confirmation bias. Most of the valuable things I mentioned above were within the context of physics curricula - courses and programs required for degree credit. Yes, students can pass the classes without all these things, but the opportunity came within the context of required courses.

So what you cite of proof _AGAINST_ is actually supporting evidence.

 

[symbolipoint]

Rika said:

In this thread we all talk about getting additional education/classes outside of physics curriculum in order to become more marketable. It's proof that education/knowledge that comes solely from physics classes is not enough, not valuable as much as engineering or CS on job market. And that is something that is worth considering when choosing major.

You reek of confirmation bias. Most of the valuable things I mentioned above were within the context of physics curricula - courses and programs required for degree credit. Yes, students can pass the classes without all these things, but the opportunity came within the context of required courses.

So what you cite of proof _AGAINST_ is actually supporting evidence.

This is what justifies to have good counseling and advising for those particular physics students who may make poorer choices in their education otherwise.
Also Rika, knowing what you want to do, very specific jobs, once you graduate, can help a student on what choices to make to include in his/her set of courses.

 

[vela]

I think we should recognize that the typical physics curriculum in the US has room for improvement. The APS and AAPT formed a joint task force to look at this issue, and in its report, the task force wrote:

Both graduates and their employers report that physics graduates could be better prepared for positions available to those with physics training. This is equally true for recipients of Ph.D. degrees in physics, almost half of whom occupy positions outside academia one year after receiving their degrees, and more of whom move to private-sector or government positions after completing a postdoc.​

and

It is worth restating that 95% of undergraduate physics students will not become physics professors. As a profession we cannot afford to ignore the needs of 95% of our undergraduate students, if we expect an education in physics to remain relevant in the 21st century. While there will always be a cohort of students who are drawn to physics purely because of its intellectual attractions and its roots in basic research, physics departments cannot in good conscience neglect their responsibility to provide the best possible preparation for all students.​

You can download the report from here: http://www.compadre.org/jtupp/

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I think we should recognize that the typical physics curriculum in the US has room for improvement. The APS and AAPT formed a joint task force to look at this issue, and in its report, the task force wrote:

Both graduates and their employers report that physics graduates could be better prepared for positions available to those with physics training. This is equally true for recipients of Ph.D. degrees in physics, almost half of whom occupy positions outside academia one year after receiving their degrees, and more of whom move to private-sector or government positions after completing a postdoc.​

and

It is worth restating that 95% of undergraduate physics students will not become physics professors. As a profession we cannot afford to ignore the needs of 95% of our undergraduate students, if we expect an education in physics to remain relevant in the 21st century. While there will always be a cohort of students who are drawn to physics purely because of its intellectual attractions and its roots in basic research, physics departments cannot in good conscience neglect their responsibility to provide the best possible preparation for all students.​

You can download the report from here: http://www.compadre.org/jtupp/

A case can always be made that material needs to be added to the curriculum for physics graduates to be more employable. But no one ever says what should be taken out. Pressures to lower the bar for graduation have more and more programs requiring closer to 120 credit hours for graduation, and once the bar has been lowered, there are university level barriers to increasing the credit hours required for graduation.

When I earned by BS in Physics (LSU, 1989), 131 semester hours total were required, and I accrued over 100 semester hours in STEM courses. The Air Force Academy still requires 131 credit hours, including nearly that many STEM credit hours and 7 engineering courses of all majors, including physics majors. When you hire all of your graduates, you do a pretty good job preparing them. Their physics majors are very well prepared for many engineering type jobs in the Air Force AND for graduate school.

But the pressures to maintain retention and graduation rates high at most universities will likely not allow most physics departments to raise the bar on required STEM courses anywhere near where the Air Force Academy is now or what I accomplished at LSU. As long as this is true, improving preparation for engineering type jobs will probably mean lowering preparation for graduate school. Since the universities themselves will not allow increases in credit hour requirements, it's up to the students to take ownership of their own preparation and avail themselves of the existing opportunities within their physics courses, taking classes that are not required, diligently seeking employment in the physics department that will increase their preparation, and otherwise preparing themselves for whichever job sector they see as most likely following graduation.

The other issue with increased "employability" focus is that one invariably needs to choose between moving more toward engineering skills or more toward teaching skills. Since the total credit hours are effectively capped and outside departmental control, there is a tension between three possibilities: more teaching focus, more engineering skills, or better preparation for grad school. I prefer the free market approach of letting each department decide how they balance those factors, and letting each student find a path within each department by taking ownership of their college process.

 

[radium]

Sometimes there are different concentrations available in the physics major which influences the upper level electives you take.

I would also say that despite not having some of these more applied courses, from what I have heard the skills are not too difficult to pick up for physicists if they devote some time to learning things like how to code etc. After they have acquired these skills they may have advantages over engineers in some areas given the more extensive math knowledge emphasized in the physics major.

 

[FallenApple]

I know a few people that have completed physics at the phd level. One of them became a software engineer with a good salary and another works on Wall Street. Don't know if they picked those up as an after thought and that the study of physics just made them ready for anything or that the specifics of their program were directly transferable. Probably the latter.

You want to pick up some skills in technology such computing regardless of your choice of major. So if there are computational physics classes, you might find it transferable. For example, MCMC algorithnms and other probabilistic sampling techniques was originally developed for physics applications and you might see them in courses that teach computational statistical physics. These turned out to have important applications in machine learning, artificial intelligence and even finance and are simply great exercises in coding. Another thing that might be useful is learning how to write good reports. So courses that are project based allow you to accumulate a portfolio to present to prospective employers during interviews. In short, if you are to do physics, just make sure that you pick up technical skills BEFORE graduating.