Physics BS - is it even worth it?

[caldweab]

Some random thoughts:

1. Pay no attention to "prestige" - Stony Brook is one of the best schools in the country. For nuclear physics, I would rank it #2, under Michigan State. Harvard and Chicago aren't even close. There is a lot of misinformation in this section - not surprising when high school kiddies try to give advice to PhD candidates.

2. $120,000 is a lot of money. A lot.

3. In today's economy, there is no major that guarantees you a well-paying job just for having graduated. None.

4. When I graduated with my SB, I took a job for the equivalent of $61,000 in today's dollars. I was working in industry, doing one of those jobs that everyone here likes to pooh-pooh: making the company money as opposed to doing science. Had I not gone back to graduate school I am certain I would be making substantially more than I am making today, nevertheless I am glad I made the choices that I did. Money has no value in and of itself - it's value is in what you can do with it.

You realize the OP is a freshmen right? I also beg to differ on the well paying job thing. The last two classes to graduate our program everyone has a job making over $60,000 or received a full ride to graduate school. Most are hired by SCANA, GE, AREVA, Duke Energy or Westinghouse but there have been a good many who have went to the NRC and national labs. By the way the girl that makes $60,000 is in the navy, everyone else makes more than her. One that I personally know very well is working at the naval shipyard in Virginia and she makes $75,000. Now that's not bad at all considering she has no student loan debt, no kids and she's single in her early 20's (23).

 

[AnTiFreeze3]

You realize the OP is a freshmen right? I also beg to differ on the well paying job thing. The last two classes to graduate our program everyone has a job making over $60,000 or received a full ride to graduate school. Most are hired by SCANA, GE, AREVA, Duke Energy or Westinghouse but there have been a good many who have went to the NRC and national labs. By the way the girl that makes $60,000 is in the navy, everyone else makes more than her. One that I personally know very well is working at the naval shipyard in Virginia and she makes $75,000. Now that's not bad at all considering she has no student loan debt, no kids and she's single in her early 20's (23).

Please don't tell me that you honestly believe that two classes from your graduate program are representative of the entirety of the United States.

He was simply pointing out that, despite some fields having more opportunities than others, no one is guaranteed a well paying job simply by choosing a particular field.

 

[caldweab]

Please don't tell me that you honestly believe that two classes from your graduate program are representative of the entirety of the United States.

He was simply pointing out that, despite some fields having more opportunities than others, no one is guaranteed a well paying job simply by choosing a particular field.

Of course I don't.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the advice. Vanadium I have duly noted your points, thank you. I realize that getting a job isn't easy period so any drastic changes I make to my academic career will have to be well thought out. Regardless of if I transfer or not, I'll still be stuck at my current uni for another year so it's really the last two years of my college education that will take place at Stony should I decide to transfer. Still, money saved is money saved.

I would like to ask one question though, to you (Vanadium) and others: if we were to forget physics and focus on an engineering or computer science related job instead, would the price tag for Cornell be worth it as far as being recruited by potential employers who scrutinize based on rank goes? I understand that for acceptance into a physics PhD program, the rank isn't as important as various other factors (grades, recs etc.) but what about for industry jobs related to the above technical fields? I see often on the forum that the ranking is taken into account noticeably if not heavily for recruitment into top paying jobs.

 

[MarneMath]

In my personal opinion, the price tag at Cornell would not be worth it for any major, if money is of any concern of yours. 120,000 plus interest is extremely difficult to pay off, and say good buy to any lofty goal of home ownership and or renting in a decent location within a large city. The debt to income ratio is just too heavy. The simple fact of the matter is that you need to utilize the opportunity you have now to network with people at your current university. By network, I don't mean just know or hang out randomly once a month. I'm talking about meeting and befriending people who are doing business or engineering and clicking with them. Make them aware that you are extremely intelligent, hard working and easy to communicate with. Nearly every job I have ever worked, when a new position had to be filled, my bosses would ask employers for recommendations, and every time, I thought of friends who needed a job and argued for them. Heck, when I left my last job the guy who replaced me was recommended by me. Great guy.

Anyway, more on point. While there is a potential that you may lock yourself out of some cliches companies because you graduated from great public university instead of great ivy league, I would say that that matters less and less after your first job. Eventually, the questions no longer relate to why you learned in school, but what projects you worked on and how you see your experience helping out on projects this companies does.

 

[Physics_UG]

If I could do it over, I would have went to a community college for a couple years and then transfer to an in-state public school. Nobody cares where you get your degree. They care more about what you accomplish where you are at. For grad school you should aim for the best program you can though.

 

[Vanadium 50]

"Prestige" is way overrated.

Do you think that you could rank all the college graduates in some field from 1 to N, and you would find that all the students who went to the #1 ranked college are better than all the students in the #2 ranked college, who in turn are better than all the students in the #3 ranked college, and so on?

If you thought "that's silly", why would you think corporations would think any differently?

 

[WannabeNewton]

@Vanadium, I'm not saying its practical nor even effective but I'm just basing it off of what I see on physicsgre.com, this site, and journals like The Wall Street Journal and Forbes.

@Physics_UG, I think it's extreme to say people don't care at all where you get your degree. That is too much of a generalizing statement.

 

[Physics_UG]

@Vanadium, I'm not saying its practical nor even effective but I'm just basing it off of what I see on physicsgre.com, this site, and journals like The Wall Street Journal and Forbes.

@Physics_UG, I think it's extreme to say people don't care at all where you get your degree. That is too much of a generalizing statement.

Well, it's generally true. I went to a no-name school in Michigan and was able to get into some respectable PhD programs in my field with funding. In the rare case where everything is equal (including letters of recommendations and research experience and essay) they will probably choose the student who went to the more "prestigious" school, but such a scenario is unlikely.

Now, the advantage of going to a high ranking school as an undergrad is you get more research opportunities (I had to go to a neighboring state school to get research experience) and your peers might be a bit better, but you'd be surprised at the quality of students even at low ranking schools.

 

[Physics_UG]

Also, the ivies are known for grade inflation. You might even get a more rigorous education at a large state school than from an Ivy. I don't think Cornell is bad as the other Ivies (i.e. Harvard) though.

 

[ModusPwnd]

@Physics_UG, I think it's extreme to say people don't care at all where you get your degree. That is too much of a generalizing statement.

Employers in industry don't. They care about your marketable/usable skills, relevant research/publications and internships. If you can get those at a state school, your good. If you fail to get those at an expensive school, you are not good.

If you want to be a university professor then I believe that statistics show you are better off doing graduate school at a top rate university. For undergrad it's far less relevant.

 

[Physics_UG]

Employers in industry don't. They care about your marketable/usable skills, relevant research/publications and internships. If you can get those at a state school, your good. If you fail to get those at an expensive school, you are not good.

If you want to be a university professor then I believe that statistics show you are better off doing graduate school at a top rate university. For undergrad it's far less relevant.

Also, keep in mind that just because it's a state school doesn't mean it can't be considered top ranking. Consider UC Berkeley or UMich-AA for instance.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Employers in industry don't

Do you actually have a reference that supports the claim that absolutely no industry employer cares about the superficial prestige of a university? This is contrary to many things I have read across different mediums.

@Physics_UG, Berkeley and UMich are out of the question because they would cost me even more than Cornell, as I have already mentioned in the thread.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Is what you read about science and engineering? Or other professions like business and law?

In science and engineering you rest your laurels on specific achievements. Publications and skills. I don't know about other fields.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Is what you read about science and engineering? Or other professions like business and law?

In science and engineering you rest your laurels on specific achievements. Publications and skills. I don't know about other fields.

Finance and computer science related fields almost exclusively from what I've read. I don't disagree with what you said about pure sciences and pure engineering. Schools like Carnegie Mellon, UIUC, Purdue, UW Madison, RPI etc. certainly get tons of recruiters on campus for respectable internships / jobs but these universities are also highly ranked in engineering, regardless of overall prestige.

 

[Physics_UG]

Do you actually have a reference that supports the claim that absolutely no industry employer cares about the superficial prestige of a university? This is contrary to many things I have read across different mediums.

@Physics_UG, Berkeley and UMich are out of the question because they would cost me even more than Cornell, as I have already mentioned in the thread.

You missed my point. I was just saying that large state schools should not be considered inferior just because they are state schools.

How about you tell us what state you are from then? Maybe we can recommend a school in that state.

 

[WannabeNewton]

How about you tell us what state you are from then? Maybe we can recommend a school in that state.

This has already been covered extensively in the previous posts: I have noted that I am from NY and that the only viable option is Stony Brook as far as in-state schools go. I also never stated state schools were inferior, where did you even see me state that? I was just noting the mindsets of potential campus recruiters for various fields based on the different articles and forum posts I have read.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Schools like Carnegie Mellon, UIUC, Purdue, UW Madison, RPI etc. certainly get tons of recruiters on campus for respectable internships / jobs...

So does Oregon State University. It has little prestige among the US population. But for engineering it provides real marketable skills and internships. Graduates from there can and do go on to places like Intel, Motorola, etc.

What kind of metric is this rank you are looking at using? Public perception? Employment rate and income of graduates? Satisfaction of education value vs cost?

 

[Physics_UG]

This has already been covered extensively in the previous posts: I have noted that I am from NY and that the only viable option is Stony Brook as far as in-state schools go. I also never stated state schools were inferior, where did you even see me state that? I was just stating the mindsets of potential campus recruiters for various fields based on the different articles and forum posts I have read.

Then why don't you go to Stony Brook or any of the other SUNY schools? It will be much more cost effective than Cornell.

 

[WannabeNewton]

What kind of metric is this rank you are looking at using? Public perception? Employment rate and income of graduates? Satisfaction of education value vs cost?

Just look up as many engineering rankings as you can find for US universities. Many of the state schools/ various lesser known private schools that are popular recruiting grounds also happen to be consistently highly ranked engineering schools.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Then why don't you go to Stony Brook or any of the other SUNY schools? It will be much more cost effective than Cornell.

Again, the various pros and cons have been extensively discussed in the previous posts. At this point it is really just a matter of "sleeping on it". I have essentially three options I can go with, all of which have been detailed in said prior posts.

 

[Physics_UG]

I got shafted bad though. lol. I went to a no name private school that has outrageous tuition (it's up to about $900/cr over 131 credits) and no prestige. I was young and dumb, basically.

However, tons of respectable companies recruit from my university.

My "only" student loan debt is about 40K though. Not 120K.

 

[Physics_UG]

Again, the various pros and cons have been extensively discussed in the previous posts. At this point it is really just a matter of "sleeping on it". I have essentially three options I can go with, all of which have been detailed in said prior posts.

The choice seems obvious. Go to a public school in NY where you won't accrue 120K in student loan debt. This will ruin your life.

 

[Physics_UG]

I skimmed for the pros mentioned in this thread of going to Cornell and I didn't find much. Everyone seems to be telling you to just go to Stony Brook.

 

[Physics_UG]

As far as getting a job with only a physics BS...good luck competing with people with engineering degrees (and getting past the HR drones) for engineering positions.

One thing you could do (which I also did) is double major in engineering and physics. Problem is all of your electives will be physics classes where you could be taking more engineering classes with these electives which are what employers care about.

Sorry for the long string of posts, BTW.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Thank you for all the advice UG, it is much appreciated (everyone else as well, thanks). It is quite a big decision of course, to switch majors or switch universities, so it is not something I can make overnight. Thankfully (in a loose sense of the word), since I'm stuck at the same university for the next year regardless, I have a few months at the most to think it over. I'll also take a look into scholarships as some others have mentioned. Ideally I would like to do physics, since I really like the subject and would like to think I'm somewhat good at it, so if possible I will lean towards whatever will support that. If I do decide to transfer, it can only be for the last 2 years of undergrad so the money already spent (~60 - 65k) for the first two years will of course not be retrievable at that point, but that is out of my hands. Thank you again everyone.

 

[deluks917]

It is clear that students of top colleges do much better in graduate admissions (and in getting jobs). However the average student at a top college deserves to do much better then the average student at a regular school. They are (on average) smarter and harder working.

What is relevant is whether students who were accepted to top schools and went to a lower ranked school instead (or transfered) do worse. There is much harder to determine. And even if an effect is there estimating the magnitude is pretty tricky.

note: Even this has confonds lurking. The main reasona student would go to a lower ranked school is probably financial. So students who turn downsay MIT are probably worse off financially then students who accept. This is just one of the many potential conflicting variables.

 

[Physics_UG]

Thank you for all the advice UG, it is much appreciated (everyone else as well, thanks). It is quite a big decision of course, to switch majors or switch universities, so it is not something I can make overnight. Thankfully (in a loose sense of the word), since I'm stuck at the same university for the next year regardless, I have a few months at the most to think it over. I'll also take a look into scholarships as some others have mentioned. Ideally I would like to do physics, since I really like the subject and would like to think I'm somewhat good at it, so if possible I will lean towards whatever will support that. If I do decide to transfer, it can only be for the last 2 years of undergrad so the money already spent (~60 - 65k) for the first two years will of course not be retrievable t that point, but that is out of my hands. Thank you again everyone.

You are DEFINITELY good at physics. Nobody can deny that. What keeps you from transferring for your second year? Why do you have to wait until your 3rd year to transfer?

Either way, whether at Cornell or elsewhere, you will do fine I am sure. Cornell is a great school for physics. The problem is it just costs too much, IMO.

 

[WannabeNewton]

You are DEFINITELY good at physics. Nobody can deny that. What keeps you from transferring for your second year? Why do you have to wait until your 3rd year to transfer?

I am going to be entering my sophomore year once the summer is over so it is far too late to transfer out at this point even if I wanted to. Don't you just wish you were a little kid again, when life was so simple :D?

 

[Physics_UG]

It is clear that students of top colleges do much better in graduate admissions (and in getting jobs). However the average student at a top college deserves to do much better then the average student at a regular school. They are (on average) smarter and harder working.

What is relevant is whether students who were accepted to top schools and went to a lower ranked school instead (or transfered) do worse. There is much harder to determine. And even if an effect is there estimating the magnitude is pretty tricky.

note: Even this has confonds lurking. The main reasona student would go to a lower ranked school is probably financial. So students who turn downsay MIT are probably worse off financially then students who accept. This is just one of the many potential conflicting variables.

Of the physics majors in my class at my low ranking school, all of them that wanted to go to grad school got spots at top universities. You'd also be surprised at how good the students at low ranking universities are. It just depends on if you want to be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond. Either way, 120K is too much debt regardless of where you go, IMO.

What you don't seem to understand is that Stony Brook is not a low ranking school, and it costs a lot less for an NY resident.