Physics & Religion: Can You Believe in Cosmology & Unified Theory?

[whybother]

There are many atheist organizations, actually. My undergraduate college had several Secular Alliances, which were equivalent to the Christian Campus organizations. There is also the Center For Inquiry which is a fairly big gathering place for non-believers. And when people ask me my beliefs, I say "Atheist", not because it's a religion, but because it's a valid word for what I believe... which is in nothing.

 

[Evo]

So what is an atheist? Someone that doesn't believe in the Christian God? Someone that doesn't believe in Vishnu? Someone that doesn't believe in the Trout God?

When you think of "atheists" aren't you really thinking of people that reject Christianity?

The atheist/Christian differentation is really only a distinction in western society.

To assign a label to people that don't believe is ridiculous. If someone wants to call themselves something, whatever. I don't believe in imaginary creatures. So what am I? What is the label for people that don't believe in imaginary beings? Logical? Realistic? I don't believe that rocks are sentient beings, what's the label for that? How do you label a non belief in what someone else has imagined?

I am anti-elf, anti-unicorn, anti-leprechaun, anti-theist, do you see how ridiculous that is?

My best friend is a devout Catholic. My mother is a devout Catholic. My youngest daughter likes to believe that there is a God because it gives her comfort. I respect these people and I expect respect in return, so Dave, I think your statement about people you categorize as atheist was way out of line.

 

[DaveC426913]

If you had used the word "christian" or "muslim" or "hindu" or any other group of people, that would have been a guideline violation.

Yes, it would have been. But since they're not a group, it isn't. Which makes sense. Thank you. With opponents like you, who needs allies.



Evo, I really think you need to step back and review this from the top. To all appearances you have a chip on your shoulder - you are trying very hard to put your words on my fingertips that I did not write - and then attacking those ideas.

 

[DaveC426913]

So what is an atheist? Someone that doesn't believe in the Christian God? Someone that doesn't believe in Vishnu? Someone that doesn't believe in the Trout God?

When you think of "atheists" aren't you really thinking of people that reject Christianity?

The atheist/Christian differentation is really only a distinction in western society.

To assign a label to people that don't believe is ridiculous. If someone wants to call themselves something, whatever. I don't believe in imaginary creatures. So what am I? What is the label for people that don't believe in imaginary beings?

Again, your words.

You ask me a question, then you answer it for yourself with what you want to hear. You're not interested in my words at all.


I will ask you a third time, directly. Show me where I claimed that atheists act as a group.

 

[lisab]

So what is an atheist? Someone that doesn't believe in the Christian God? Someone that doesn't believe in Vishnu? Someone that doesn't believe in the Trout God?

When you think of "atheists" aren't you really thinking of people that reject Christianity?

The atheist/Christian differentation is really only a distinction in western society.

To assign a label to people that don't believe is ridiculous. If someone wants to call themselves something, whatever. I don't believe in imaginary creatures. So what am I?

I don't believe in the supernatural, at all, period. I tell people I'm an atheist because that's the only label that comes close to what I am. I'm not at all militant, and only my closest friends know my feelings.

But I still have incredible, profound, moving emotions when I see a beautiful sunset, or hear a beautiful piece of music (especially religious music, like Christmas carols), or feel a strong emotion. I just don't attribute that incredible feeling to a supernatural being.

I must admit, I do still say a "prayer" when an ambulance screams by. Just a reflex, and it feels good to give that person in distress my good wishes.

 

[swat4life]

That is an awesome, awesome quote. 'tis only icing on the cake that it was uttered by Einstein.

I am an atheist but I've always found most atheists are rabid; they attack with the zeal of bloodlust, which flies directly in the face of their claim to be rational.

That quote sums up perfectly how I feel.

To be honest, IMHO, it's rare human beings - atheists or believers - who can respect someone who believes something so different and diametrically opposed to what they do, yet not feel threatened or disdainful toward the other part(ies) beliefs.

It perturbs me when I hear religious people condescend towards atheists and their beliefs as much as it does atheists who believe that theists are naive, unintelligent, irrationals.


That said, I think exposure and open-mindedness is quite important. As an example, I was having a hot conversation on politics a while ago with a British atheist friend of mine and somehow happened to mention religion. She talked to me about it and helped me understand how what I said could be received quite differently from a person with her beliefs than it could a theist.

This was so valuable to me and has helped me be so much more sensitive and aware as a human being when it comes to individuals who have those beliefs.

The funny thing about we humans is that all of us assume that what we see is exactly what everyone else sees and that's hardly ever the case.

I guess where science is concerned, the great challenge is trying as hard as possible to not let our own personal views affect our quest for the truth. Life experience and intellectual risk taking helps a lot in this respect...

I feel the more willing we are to try to see life through other peoples' perspective - no matter how different or even ridiculous or fanciful that perspective may be - the better we can make this planet.

In my opinion this is true no matter what your religious or non-religious affiliation or ideals may be...

 

[whybother]

So what is an atheist? Someone that doesn't believe in the Christian God? Someone that doesn't believe in Vishnu? Someone that doesn't believe in the Trout God?

When you think of "atheists" aren't you really thinking of people that reject Christianity?

When I say atheist, and to the people who I say it to, it means I reject all gods, Christian or otherwise, magic, and any other weird non scientific beliefs that people seem to have. Maybe atheist means something different to you, but it doesn't mean something weird or Christian specific to me, and also importantly, to the people I talk to...

 

[Stratosphere]

Post containing religion always tend to get heated up quickly.

 

[swat4life]

When I say atheist, and to the people who I say it to, it means I reject all gods, Christian or otherwise, magic, and any other weird non scientific beliefs that people seem to have. Maybe atheist means something different to you, but it doesn't mean something weird or Christian specific to me, and also importantly, to the people I talk to...

You have a right to your beliefs! And as Voltaire said, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it...Also though, when you use words like "weird" could you see how this could be misconstrued by someone who might have a different set of beliefs?

If you don't care that's fine; but sometimes, we just aren't aware of these things. The issue is that 9.5 times out of 10, we tend to have friends, acquaintances, etc. that share our beliefs so it's not a problem.

I would never in a million years label my atheist friends beliefs "weird" as that is a highly subjective, loaded term that is slightly condescending and pejorative...The way I found that out (see my earlier thread) was a while back while having a chat with an atheist friend and in the course of the debate I mentioned something about religion.

She very insightfully showed me how what I had said could be considered disrespectful by her as an atheist.

Of course this is easier said than done. For instance, I remember reading about a group that believes aliens created the world and dropped humans down a volcano (I'm sure you know the group). I can't lie and be hypocritical. When I first heard that, I said, "those people are very crazy and loony".

Then I had an epiphany of sorts. I said to myself, "geez, this is probably how atheists feel about us". It was so eye opening. From that moment on, I corrected myself every time that religious group arose as a topic of conversation and I made those kind of comments...

 

[whybother]

"geez, this is probably how atheists feel about us"

You are exactly right.

 

[swat4life]

I don't believe in the supernatural, at all, period. I tell people I'm an atheist because that's the only label that comes close to what I am. I'm not at all militant, and only my closest friends know my feelings.

But I still have incredible, profound, moving emotions when I see a beautiful sunset, or hear a beautiful piece of music (especially religious music, like Christmas carols), or feel a strong emotion. I just don't attribute that incredible feeling to a supernatural being.

I must admit, I do still say a "prayer" when an ambulance screams by. Just a reflex, and it feels good to give that person in distress my good wishes.

I think that's awesome. Personally and to stress this point (it's clearly something I have thought a lot about), I don't want to sound like a hippy, but I wish there could be more open-minded dialogue between people with divergent beliefs.

As an example, while I know it may have turned some people off to have a prayer during the Obama inaugural, I thought it was such a step in the right direction that he mentioned all religions as well as the term "NON-BELIEVERS".


Far to often, discussion around religion breaks down to religious people reciting bible verses and non believers reciting long-dead rationalists.

The way to peace is respecting other people's right to believe what they choose to and trying to see reality from their perspective...

 

[Evo]

I will ask you a third time, directly. Show me where I claimed that atheists act as a group.

Well, again, that would be right here Dave.

most atheists are rabid; they attack with the zeal of bloodlust, which flies directly in the face of their claim to be rational.

You are the one here claiming that atheists act and think in a specific way.

 

[swat4life]

You are exactly right.

Q.E.D...

On a different note, being new here, I'm not touching another discussion involving this topic on this forum again. Divergent beliefs can clearly get you banned and/or your threads closed in a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito" like manner and I didn't come here for that...

Peace to All!

 

[Integral]

Dave, there is no such organization as "atheist". People that truly just do not believe in a "supreme being" do not call call themselves anything, "atheist" is a label assigned by the religious to people that do not buy into religion.

People that don't believe do not gather in groups, they do not build temples to what they know does not exist. Just as people that do not believe in fairies, elves, unicorns etc.. are not part of an organized group.

There is a segment of society that are 'anti-religious", and it is this fringe that are outspoken. They do not represent me or people like me that simply do not believe.

So to lable someone and then make the claim that are rabid, and attack people, of whom are you speaking, because it's certainly not anyone I know. It's like saying that all Christians are rabid and attack people that do not believe in what they do. You should be more careful.

Ever hear of the Unitarian church?

 

[Evo]

Ever hear of the Unitarian church?

It's a church. They claim tax exemption as a religious group "The church is a tax-exempt organization under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, and contributions are tax-deductible"

I'm not aware of any atheist churches claiming tax exemption. Yes, churches was a joke.

 

[Math Is Hard]

is it possible to be interested in cosmology and a unified theory and not be an athiest?

We're flirting with discussion of specific religions here, so this is a good place to stop. I am going to close this thread by saying, yes, it is entirely possible, and often is the case! At least for the cosmology question. I'm not sure what achieving a unified field theory has to do with either atheism or belief in a higher power.

Some opinions on this topic by Ned Wright of UCLA may be helpful, most importantly, that this is not strictly a science vs. young Earth creationists debate:

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo-religion.html