Portlandia has struck again: fluoride in water

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the recent vote in Portland regarding the fluoridation of the city's drinking water. Participants express a range of opinions on the necessity, benefits, and potential risks associated with adding fluoride to the water supply, touching on themes of public health, individual choice, and local governance.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the vote to fluoridate the water supply failed, with a significant portion of the public opposing the measure.
  • Concerns are raised about the inclusion of chemicals in drinking water, with some arguing that there are unknown long-term health risks associated with fluoride.
  • Others suggest that the scientific consensus on fluoride's safety and efficacy is being rejected in favor of a more reactionary stance against perceived "chemicals."
  • Some participants question the necessity of water fluoridation given the availability of fluoride toothpaste and the increasing consumption of bottled water.
  • There are arguments about the appropriateness of fluoridation in a developed country like the U.S., with suggestions that alternative methods, such as fluoridated salt, might be more suitable.
  • Concerns about the management and transparency of the water bureau are raised, with accusations of financial mismanagement and distrust in their operations.
  • Participants express skepticism about the motivations behind the fluoride proposal, linking it to broader political and cultural trends in Portland.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach a consensus on the issue of fluoridation, with multiple competing views remaining. Some support fluoridation for its dental health benefits, while others oppose it due to concerns about health risks and individual rights.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference studies on fluoride's effects, but there is uncertainty about the replication of these studies and their acceptance within the scientific community. The discussion reflects a complex interplay of local governance, public health policy, and community values.

  • #31
My daughter lives in Portland. She has just enough hippie in her to love the old houses built in the 1920's on the NE side. For some reason most of Tucson's older housing just coincidentally happened to be in the Interstate 10 alignment.:frown:

Cover the reservoirs in Portland? The CAP runs 340 miles uphill and uncovered. There was a reservoir at the now defunct water treatment plant. A six foot water main broke and the water in the reservoir flooded out 20 homes that were below the plant.

The main was four years old, we should have expected it to break at any time.
 
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  • #32
My band played a gig in Gresham back in 2006, and some girl there wanted to be my "roadie". Good times that night...:smile:
 
  • #33
The Portland reservoirs need to be covered.

http://www.nwcn.com/news/Man-urinates-in-Portlands-Mt-Tabor-reservoir-flush-to-cost-33K-124007264.html
 
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  • #34
DiracPool said:
My band played a gig in Gresham back in 2006, and some girl there wanted to be my "roadie". Good times that night...:smile:

At least she didn't have to sleep under a bridge that night...or did she? To keep on topic did she use fluoride tooth paste?
 
  • #35
nsaspook said:
The Portland reservoirs need to be covered.

http://www.nwcn.com/news/Man-urinates-in-Portlands-Mt-Tabor-reservoir-flush-to-cost-33K-124007264.html

No Fluoride in the water? And apparently Portland has no chlorine either.
 
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  • #36
nsaspook said:
The Portland reservoirs need to be covered.

http://www.nwcn.com/news/Man-urinates-in-Portlands-Mt-Tabor-reservoir-flush-to-cost-33K-124007264.html

They're going to spend a hundred million dollars to avoid paying 30k every once in a while?
 
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  • #37
nsaspook said:
The Portland reservoirs need to be covered.

http://www.nwcn.com/news/Man-urinates-in-Portlands-Mt-Tabor-reservoir-flush-to-cost-33K-124007264.html
No they don't.

Shaff said:
More likely than not a tiny bit of urine in 8 million gallons of water isn’t going to hurt anybody. But in this one, I guess I’m responding in part to the yuck factor.

What's next?

Wanda Stinkerton, a Corvallisinian immigrant, has started a petition that would require the Water Bureau to cover the Bull Run Reservoir. In an interview, she stated that there are millions of birds that poop in the lake, and she didn't like the idea of drinking poopy water. When asked about all the fish poop, she responded that they would all need to be removed. And the frogs? "Them too!"

Office_Shredder said:
They're going to spend a hundred million dollars to avoid paying 30k every once in a while?

Hundred million...

Pfft!

East Side Combined Sewer Overflow (CSO) Project
...
Construction of the East Side “Big Pipe” alone is expected to cost Portland sewer ratepayers over $600 million, bringing the overall project cost to $1.4 billion. The City of Portland currently has the 2nd highest sewer rates in the nation and is expected to have the highest by the conclusion of the program.
...


Have I mentioned the poop tax? :rolleyes:

edward said:
No Fluoride in the water? And apparently Portland has no chlorine either.

mmm... Yes we do.

Leonard said:
The water is chlorinated, but its chlorinated before the reservoirs so the water in the reservoirs is the water that you drink

Integral said:
i am glad Portland is there. It stuffs a lot of people in a small area. Sure glad that those people are not living in the nice parts of the state.

The feeling is mutual. This is why I support immigration control.

A portion of the Mount Tabor Reservoir had to be drained Wednesday morning when a 21-year-old Molalla man admitted to urinating in the water.

I think Molallainians should be forced to carry green cards, and wear big M's on their clothing when entering Portlandia.

Animals.

Like bears in he woods...
 
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  • #38
  • #39
Portland people suck, I'm a Seattlite, Portland people think they are cool cause they smoke pot, don't shave their legs, are "anti-establishement", and a slew of other redicuouslessness
 
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  • #40
Office_Shredder said:
They're going to spend a hundred million dollars to avoid paying 30k every once in a while?

Just in case anyone missed it, both the "East Side Sewer" and "Cover the Reservoirs" projects, were imposed upon us by the Federal Government.

I wonder if this is their way of attempting to turn us into Tea-Partiers?
 
  • #41
Quote by Leonard

The water is chlorinated, but its chlorinated before the reservoirs so the water in the reservoirs is the water that you drink

I really can't believe that anyone would do that. It would be less expensive to chlorinate the water at the point where it leaves the reservoirs than to cover them.
 
  • #42
OmCheeto said:
Just in case anyone missed it, both the "East Side Sewer" and "Cover the Reservoirs" projects, were imposed upon us by the Federal Government.

I wonder if this is their way of attempting to turn us into Tea-Partiers?

The water supply for DC comes from the Potomac River. They have recently discovered that the male fish have eggs in their testes.

More than 80% of the male bass fish in Washington's major river are now exhibiting female traits such as egg production because of a "toxic stew" of pollutants, scientists and campaigners reported yesterday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/apr/21/toxic-stew-chemicals-fish-eggs

I wonder if they think covering their reservoirs will fix that problem?

BTW DC does add fluoride to the water.
http://www.dcwater.com/waterquality/faqs.cfm
 
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  • #43
Lets hope all the reservoirs are covered tonight.

World Naked Bike Ride Tomorrow Night - Portland Police Urge Riders to Wear Helmets and Shoes - 06/07/13
The World Naked Bike Ride is set to roll through the streets of Portland this Saturday, June 8, 2013, at 10:00 p.m., beginning in the South Park Blocks. Event organizers estimated the number of participants last year to be nearly 8,000 people.

The Portland Police Bureau will have extra officers on hand to ensure everyone is safe and to provide assistance at intersections.

Portland City Code 14A.40.030 (Indecent Exposure) states the following:

It is unlawful for any person to expose his or her genitalia while in a public place or place visible from a public place, if the public place is open or available to persons of the opposite sex.

Although many participants may violate Portland City Code, the Police Bureau will be exercising tremendous discretion as long as participants stay on the route with the rest of the riders.

The Portland Police Bureau recommends that at a bare minimum, all riders at least wear a helmet and shoes to avoid any potential injuries. Bike lights are also recommended.

This is a permitted event and traffic will be affected in several areas of Downtown, Kerns, West Buckman, Lloyd, Sullivan's Gulch, and the Laurelhurst neighborhoods.
 
  • #44
nsaspook said:
Lets hope all the reservoirs are covered tonight.

That reminds me.

If anyone should come visit, the water is fine.

But please, wear gloves, if you have to touch the locals.

​

Taken outside my bar last summer.
Someone walked in and said; "There's some guy dancing naked in the street".
Everyone smiled politely, and nodded.
10 minutes later, someone came in and said; "There's some guy dancing naked in the street".
We did a collective; "Ok, I guess we have to look."

I once saw a lady, in what I would call a "dominatrix" type of outfit walk by. Not too weird. But she was on a leash. On the end of the leash was a, pardon my political incorrectness for not knowing the current correct term, midget in a wheelchair.

Later, I thought to myself; "I didn't do a double-take."

I decided that my city is so bizarre, that she would have had to have been a giraffe on roller-skates in the outfit, and the gentleman would have had to have been a dwarf walrus in a wheelchair, before I thought something was out of the ordinary.
 
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  • #47
lisab said:
OMG but don't skip the other 29 :smile:!

I like the missing chicken posters.

Sorry to get back on topic, but I had lunch in a real restaurant yesterday and picked up the local paper, and there was a post election interview with the head of the group opposed to fluoridation. She didn't come across as a kook.

Willamette Week Hotseat: Kim Kaminski said:
For the strategist behind fluoride’s defeat, the fight isn’t over.
...
In many ways, the vote had been the fight Kaminski—47, and who has a law degree, focused on environmental issues, from Arizona State University—had been waiting for. She has made opposing fluoridation a yearslong fight as executive director of Oregon Citizens for Safe Drinking Water.

In this interview, Kaminski talks about where the fight goes from here, how her campaign didn’t juke the science, and how Carl Sagan is linked to the defeat of fluoride in Portland.
...

Ha! She blamed it on Carl Sagan. I think I like her. I wonder where she's from.

Where are you from originally?

I grew up in Illinois. State-mandated fluoridation. I had 12 cavities. They were all filled with mercury amalgams.

oooo... An auslander... But I like her. She can stay. Unlike the Mollalaninians. They need to stay home.

I read another article that said that every major newspaper in the state supported the fluoride initiative, including the one listed above.

And this just in, from our Keep Portland Weird Facebook Page:

pdx.cat.goat.2013.06.09.0027.jpg

I would post what I've just read about a 64 year old man being arrested, jailed, and fined, for collecting rainwater, ...

Oh what the hell... People need to be aware of these...

Keep Portland Weird
4 June
Does it seem like your water bill keeps going up? Are you thinking about collecting rain water, read below first.

In the latest abuse of power, a man in Oregon has been sentenced to 30 days in jail and ordered to pay a $1,500 fine for collecting rainwater on his own land. Gary Harrington was convicted of nine misdemeanor crimes for filling his three man-made reservoirs with rainwater and snow runoff. The state of Oregon claims the water that fell from the sky, is owned by them and the Medford Water Commission.

As unreal as it may sound, at least 9 states have made it illegal to collect rainwater on your own land. Utah, Oregon, Colorado and a number of other states have passed rainwater laws that either limit or all out ban the collection of rainwater. Apparently, it’s alright for mega corporations to take it, bottle it and then sell it to the public for profit; but if you should try to collect any for yourself – You might need a lawyer!

You will pay for fluoride, and you will drink it.
You will not collect the rainwater, as it is ours.
And then you will pay for fluoride, and you will drink our water.

...WATER NAZI'S​


We need to organize! Occupy the Reservoirs!

Wait! What's this...

"Occupy Mount Tabor" Begins Today
UPDATE: "Occupy Mount Tabor" no longer begins today

Another update!

UPDATE, 1:03 pm: Less than two hours after WW reported the event, the Occupy Portland calendar corrected the date of the "Occupy Mount Tabor" camping protest to Friday, July 12.

Drats! I'll be down in Eugene that weekend with the hippies. Oh well, at least the hippies know how to juggle. During the Occupy Portland thingy, I handed a juggler a $20 bill and told her to take lessons. She was terrible.
 
  • #48
Posted by OmCheto Keep Portland Weird
4 June
Does it seem like your water bill keeps going up? Are you thinking about collecting rain water, read below first.

In the latest abuse of power, a man in Oregon has been sentenced to 30 days in jail and ordered to pay a $1,500 fine for collecting rainwater on his own land. Gary Harrington was convicted of nine misdemeanor crimes for filling his three man-made reservoirs with rainwater and snow runoff. The state of Oregon claims the water that fell from the sky, is owned by them and the Medford Water Commission.

As unreal as it may sound, at least 9 states have made it illegal to collect rainwater on your own land. Utah, Oregon, Colorado and a number of other states have passed rainwater laws that either limit or all out ban the collection of rainwater. Apparently, it’s alright for mega corporations to take it, bottle it and then sell it to the public for profit; but if you should try to collect any for yourself – You might need a lawyer!

For gods sake those states must have a lot of water to spare. Tucson has started urging people to harvest rainwater. They will even pay $50 to people who reroute the water from their washing machines to their plants.

We do have a poop tax though. Mine is $60 per month.

The chlorinated sewage effluent minus the poop is then sold to golf courses to water the grass.
I have a feeling that they should be paying me for my contribution to the sport of golf.

I can see that the next thing coming will be a flush counter on toilets.
 
  • #49
edward said:
For gods sake those states must have a lot of water to spare.

Our big river could submerge all 230 miles2 of Tucson under 1300 feet of water in a year. That's why I ran the numbers the other day to provide you with 2 feet of water per year. Yes, we have water to spare.

Fairly clean too. I've been swimming in it for at least 45 years and have never had a problem. And the fish don't have cavities for some reason. :-p

I was down in New Orleans in June about 10 years ago for a wedding. You can imagine how hot it was. I saw zero people in the Mississippi. If I were you, I'd ixnay the idea of diverting it over to your area.
Tucson has started urging people to harvest rainwater. They will even pay $50 to people who reroute the water from their washing machines to their plants.
My mother used to do that. She had the greenest lawn in the world.
We do have a poop tax though. Mine is $60 per month.

The chlorinated sewage effluent minus the poop is then sold to golf courses to water the grass.
I have a feeling that they should be paying me for my contribution to the sport of golf.

I can see that the next thing coming will be a flush counter on toilets.
Many years ago I ran the numbers and discovered that my roof would collect exactly the same amount of water I use over the course of a year. Unfortunately, it's comes down unevenly, so I determined that I'd need about 100 x 55 gallon barrels as a buffer. I don't really have room for that many barrels, so I ixnayed the idea.

But our poop tax is based on our winter water usage, which is when it rains the most, so I'll have to recalculate the number of barrels I would need to minimize my winter water usage. According to the law, I can't drink it, but I could use it to wash my clothes and my car, and flush the toilet. Ah ha! Take that water nazi's!

I have a friend on the other side of town, and his grandfather had a well on his property. The city was always coming over and snooping because he didn't use enough water. (He was up to something!) But he would invite them in, flush the toilet, and go out to the water meter, and show them that it moved.

The toilet was the only thing hooked to the city water mains.

Smart old dude.
 
  • #50
OmCheeto said:
Our big river could submerge all 230 miles2 of Tucson under 1300 feet of water in a year. That's why I ran the numbers the other day to provide you with 2 feet of water per year. Yes, we have water to spare.

Fairly clean too. I've been swimming in it for at least 45 years and have never had a problem. And the fish don't have cavities for some reason. :-p

I was down in New Orleans in June about 10 years ago for a wedding. You can imagine how hot it was. I saw zero people in the Mississippi. If I were you, I'd ixnay the idea of diverting it over to your area.

My mother used to do that. She had the greenest lawn in the world.

Many years ago I ran the numbers and discovered that my roof would collect exactly the same amount of water I use over the course of a year. Unfortunately, it's comes down unevenly, so I determined that I'd need about 100 x 55 gallon barrels as a buffer. I don't really have room for that many barrels, so I ixnayed the idea.

But our poop tax is based on our winter water usage, which is when it rains the most, so I'll have to recalculate the number of barrels I would need to minimize my winter water usage. According to the law, I can't drink it, but I could use it to wash my clothes and my car, and flush the toilet. Ah ha! Take that water nazi's!

I have a friend on the other side of town, and his grandfather had a well on his property. The city was always coming over and snooping because he didn't use enough water. (He was up to something!) But he would invite them in, flush the toilet, and go out to the water meter, and show them that it moved.

The toilet was the only thing hooked to the city water mains.

Smart old dude.

There are accusations going around that claim Tucson is being Portland-ized. It all began when the people voted to build a street car line. The track is almost finished but the trolleys are still under construction somewhere in [edit] Oregon.

It would have been best to see if there were trolley cars actually available.:redface:
Here’s an issue Imagine Greater Tucson will never ask about: How satisfied are you with the Portland-ization of Tucson? Are you tired of Portland, Ore., being idolized as the city that Tucson aspires to become?

The ideology connection is pretty clear: both cities are islands of liberalism in otherwise fairly conservative states.

Many of Portland’s traits infatuate Tucson’s bureaucrat copycats. To start with the obvious, Portland has a modern streetcar system that serves downtown.

http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com...cle_226f4b4a-79ea-11e1-a652-0019bb2963f4.html

The rant about Portland goes on and on.
 
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  • #51
edward said:
The rant about Portland goes on and on.

Well Portland is not boring, Boring is a few miles east.
Boringorcity.jpg


http://www.theworld.org/2012/04/a-tale-of-dull-and-boring-sister-cities/
 
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  • #52
nsaspook said:
Well Portland is not boring, Boring is a few miles east.
Boringorcity.jpg


http://www.theworld.org/2012/04/a-tale-of-dull-and-boring-sister-cities/

Ummm... I'm a few miles to the east of Portland...

I guess, I'll just shut up then...
 
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  • #54
Now something else is in the water.
http://www.kptv.com/story/24413235/caught-on-camera-suspect-jumps-off-bridge-after-high-speed-police-chase
 
  • #55
nsaspook said:
Well Portland is not boring, Boring is a few miles east.
Boringorcity.jpg


http://www.theworld.org/2012/04/a-tale-of-dull-and-boring-sister-cities/


Boring is so boring that they made a cartoon about it - Gravity Falls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boring,_Oregon
 
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  • #56
nsaspook said:
Now something else is in the water.
http://www.kptv.com/story/24413235/caught-on-camera-suspect-jumps-off-bridge-after-high-speed-police-chase

I wonder if she was wearing Nike tennis shoes.

Fiction said:
Portland woman sues Nike for $10 million for lack of warning label stating that wearing the shoes may not prevent you from jumping off bridges

Truth said:
Portland pimp sues Nike for $100 million for lack of warning label after beating victim with Jordans

In his three-page complaint handwritten from the Eastern Oregon Correctional Institution in Pendleton, Clardy claims that Nike, Chairman Phil Knight and other executives failed to warn consumers that the shoes could be used as a weapon to cause serious injury or death.

"Under product liability there is a certain standard of care that is required to be up-held by potentially dangerous product ..." wrote Clardy, who is representing himself. "Do (sic) to the fact that these defendants named in this Tort claim failed to warn of risk or to provide an adequate warning or instruction it has caused personal injury in the likes of mental suffering."
Clardy wrote that he's tried to starve himself and kill himself multiple times.

He asks a Multnomah County judge to order Nike to affix warning labels to all their "potentially dangerous Nike and Jordan merchandise."

...

A psychologist declared him an anti-social psychopath who was 100 percent likely to commit violent crimes again. ...

In the coming days, the suit will be served to Nike, which will then have an opportunity to respond.

Sirgiorgio is currently serving a 100 year sentence.
 
  • #57
OmCheeto said:
I wonder if she was wearing Nike tennis shoes.





Sirgiorgio is currently serving a 100 year sentence.

It's a dangerous foot world.
 
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  • #58
If fluoride were so completely safe, my vet would recommend it for my dogs.

They do NOT recommend it because dogs swallow it.

Good for teeth, ok; longterm bad for what else...nobody really knows.
 
  • #59
Naty1 said:
If fluoride were so completely safe, my vet would recommend it for my dogs.

They do NOT recommend it because dogs swallow it.

Good for teeth, ok; longterm bad for what else...nobody really knows.


Actually a quick search reveals that quite a lot is known.

http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/safety/systematic.htm
 
  • #60
Actually a quick search reveals that quite a lot is known.

Actually quite a lot is CLAIMED.

Christie Todd Whitman when heading the EPA also told NYC first responders at the World Trade Center

'All is well amid all the dust and debris"...

thousands now know the truth, but too late.

And West Virginia is telling many residents right now "ok to drink tap water again' despite independent lab results to the contrary.

On balance, not being blessed with perfect teeth, I think fluoride IS beneficial.