Energy Momentum Tensor Prerequisites: What Do I Need to Know?

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    Energy Momentum Tensor
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the prerequisites for understanding the Energy Momentum tensor in the context of relativity. Participants explore the necessary background knowledge, including topics from classical mechanics, electrodynamics, and solid mechanics, as well as different approaches to conceptualizing the tensor.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that prior knowledge in electrodynamics and solid mechanics is beneficial for understanding the Energy Momentum tensor.
  • One participant notes that the stress-energy tensor in electrodynamics is analogous to the Energy Momentum tensor, highlighting the importance of energy density and momentum components.
  • There is a discussion about whether concepts related to perfect fluids and stellar energy momentum are covered in solid mechanics, with some uncertainty expressed about their inclusion.
  • One participant describes an approach to derive the stress-energy tensor from a swarm of particles, emphasizing the tensor product of number-flux and energy-momentum four-vectors.
  • Another participant mentions an abstract method involving the functional derivative of the Lagrangian density with respect to the metric to define the stress-energy tensor, though they express uncertainty about the motivation behind this approach.
  • A participant shares their use of a distribution function argument in special relativity to derive equations of state for gases, indicating an alternative perspective on the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying opinions on the necessary background knowledge for understanding the Energy Momentum tensor, with no clear consensus on the specific prerequisites or the best approaches to conceptualization.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve assumptions about prior knowledge in classical mechanics and the applicability of different theoretical frameworks, which remain unresolved.

kent davidge
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I have a feeling that topics related to the Energy Momentum tensor are the most difficult part when learning Relativity. At least to me, it seems that the textbooks I'm reading assume that readers have a previous knowledge on some other area, maybe it's classical mechanics of fluids or something like that.
Note that I'm not talking about the Energy Momentum tensor itself, as in principle it's just a tensor and all you have to know about is Differential Geometry.

So does learning about Energy Momentum require some previous knowledge? If so, what?
 
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It certainly helps if you took electrodynamics and solid mechanics. In essence they contain everything you need.

In electrodynamics, you already have the stress-energy tensor, but it is split into three parts, the energy density, the Poynting vector, and the electromagnetic stress tensor - just in the same way as 4-momentum is split into energy and momentum parts.
 
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Orodruin said:
It certainly helps if you took electrodynamics and solid mechanics. In essence they contain everything you need.
those talks about perfect fluids and later, the energy momentum tensor for some stars.. are they contained in solid mechanics? because certainly they are not in electrodynamics
 
kent davidge said:
those talks about perfect fluids and later, the energy momentum tensor for some stars.. are they contained in solid mechanics? because certainly they are not in electrodynamics
Doesn’t matter. The idea is the same regardless of the continuum you are describing.
 
kent davidge said:
I have a feeling that topics related to the Energy Momentum tensor are the most difficult part when learning Relativity. At least to me, it seems that the textbooks I'm reading assume that readers have a previous knowledge on some other area, maybe it's classical mechanics of fluids or something like that.
Note that I'm not talking about the Energy Momentum tensor itself, as in principle it's just a tensor and all you have to know about is Differential Geometry.

So does learning about Energy Momentum require some previous knowledge? If so, what?

There's a couple of ways of describing the stress-energy tensor that I like, in addition to the one explained by Orodruin already.

One of the simplest is to find the stress-energy tensor of a swarm of particles. The ultra-short version of that is to consider that every particle has a number-flux four vector, a generalization of the charg-current four vector, and an energy-momentum four-vector.

Then the stress energy tensor is the tensor product of the number-flux four vector and the energy-momentum 4-vector. You know it's a tensor, because the tensor product of two tensors is another tensor. You sum the tensors from each particle in the swarm to get the tensor representing the swarm, they're linear.

t's possible, though not often done in textbooks, to envision fields as swarms of particles, rather than to use the Lagrangian formulation. I've seen this done in a few FAQ's, though. Particularly interesting is how you model a rope under tension with this approach. One winds up with particles of positive mass (forming the rope) exchanging particles of negative mass (possibly regarded as virtual particles) to create the tension forces in the rope.

A more abstract approach than the "swarm of particles" approach is to consider the stress energy tensor as the functional derivative of the Lagrangian density with respect to the metric.

Learning about the Lagrangian density formulation of fields from, say, Goldstein's "Classical Mechanics" , is recommended for this approach.

This still doesn't quite really motivate why one takes the functional derivative with respect to the metric to get the stress energy tensor, at least not to me. But it serves as a formal defnition, at least.
 
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pervect said:
t's possible, though not often done in textbooks, to envision fields as swarms of particles, rather than to use the Lagrangian formulation. I've seen this done in a few FAQ's, though. Particularly interesting is how you model a rope under tension with this approach. One winds up with particles of positive mass (forming the rope) exchanging particles of negative mass (possibly regarded as virtual particles) to create the tension forces in the rope.
I use a the distribution function argument in my SR lecture notes to arrive at the equations of state for a gas of massive/massless particles (or with T >> m). It is rather effective and you never really need to know the actual distribution.
 

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