Privacy and Government Surveillance: Are We Willing to Sacrifice Our Rights?

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The recent revelation that the US government has been collecting daily phone records from Verizon since 2006 raises significant concerns about privacy and government surveillance. Critics argue that such blanket data collection undermines the Fourth Amendment, which protects against unreasonable searches and seizures. The discussion highlights the potential for abuse of this information, suggesting that it could be used for political leverage rather than solely for national security. Many participants express skepticism about the effectiveness of checks and balances when such programs can operate in secrecy for years. Overall, the conversation underscores a growing unease about the erosion of privacy rights in the name of security.
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  • #52
Stephen Tashi said:
Which brings up an amusing thought. In government work, Powerpoint briefings are often full of technical errors. Even if they are created by people who know the facts, they get vetted and "improved" by other people who don't. Suppose the slides that Snowden released are genuine but that they exaggerate the capabilities of the contractor's system. Didn't Google officials deny that NSA has "direct access" to the Google servers?

It's not 'TS/SI/NOFORN' information that Google complies with legal requests for information from the government. The subjects, contents and reasons for the request of the information might be. That SI/NOFORN designation is usually reserved for information on systems or devices that deal with sources or methods that if revealed could cause extremely grave damage to the national security like NSA having direct access to the Google IP backbone
 
  • #53
What surprises me about Snowden is his lack of education. He only has the equivalent
of High School diploma. I would have guessed that his position would require a degree
in computer science - but not necessarily so ?
 
  • #54
morrobay said:
What surprises me about Snowden is his lack of education. He only has the equivalent
of High School diploma. I would have guessed that his position would require a degree
in computer science - but not necessarily so ?

You need a full-scope poly clearance just to burn the trash in a place like that so his high level clearance was a given and while his job title sounds impressive the reality is something far less. I suspect that he stole most of the information not from active systems that should have audit trails, two-person integrity and require strict user access protocols but from systems used for the backup, archive and cleanup of old versions of user data partitions. The archival and destruction of classified material has been a weak link in security for ages because most professionals see it as a menial custodial job that an 'ape' could do.
 
  • #55
morrobay said:
What surprises me about Snowden is his lack of education. He only has the equivalent
of High School diploma. I would have guessed that his position would require a degree
in computer science - but not necessarily so ?

On her nationally syndicated NPR radio show last night, Diane Rehm suggested he might be a genius.
 
  • #56
Dotini said:
On her nationally syndicated NPR radio show last night, Diane Rehm suggested he might be a genius.

Today he's lying.
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/305409-house-intel-chiefs-snowden-lying

The NSA leaker is lying about both his access to information and the scope of the secret surveillance programs he uncovered, the heads of the House Intelligence Committee charged Thursday.

"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

Ok, he's lying, it's all made up, so it should be easy to make it illegal for the government in the future to do the impossible things he says they are doing today.


 
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  • #57
is there a good link that shows what Snowden said? - as opposed to what people say about what he said?
 
  • #59
I can believe that he didn't have access to highly sensitive areas, doesn't mean what he had access to isn't damaging to the NSA's image.

I handled government accounts at the company I worked for. There were many levels of security, when I got to a level that was too sensitive, I was blocked, which made working on some of my accounts difficult, I'd have to contact someone with the proper clearance to answer questions since I couldn't actually view the records. One day, someone messed up and a bunch of secret CIA operations were declassified (by our company) and they suddenly appeared on our client list and there was something very obviously "wrong" with these accounts, I can't say what, but it wasn't long before we were advised by my boss actually running over to us and telling us to close out of that particular system, he was a bit panicked, it was brought down, and the next day when it came back up, the mysterious accounts had "disappeared". I'll bet someone lost their job over that.
 
  • #60
nsaspook said:
Today he's lying.
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/305409-house-intel-chiefs-snowden-lying
Re "He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actual technology of the programs would allow one to do."

Many have misunderstood Snowden's statement: "I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if I had a personal email".

At 06:10 into this NBC News discussion, reporter Pete Mitchell lambasts Snowden's claim he "had the authority" to wiretap anyone: http://video.msnbc.msn.com/mitchell-reports/52158575?lite&lite=obnetwork#52158504

However Snowden was using the term "authorities" to mean he had the technical tokens which activate those otherwise-restricted monitoring features. It's similar to an IT person saying "I have the permissions to access those files." It does NOT mean he has the official authorization -- it's a technical description.

Despite having a Stanford degree and many years experience covering security issues, reporter Pete Mitchell did not understand this, and essentially went on a rant questioning Snowden's truthfulness, credibility, etc.

In his book The Shadow Factory, James Bamford described the NSA optical taps on major internet exchange points (IXPs) which were connected to on-premises NarusInsight network monitors. These are capable of deep-packet content inspection at over 10 gigabits per second. Narus' VP said: "anything that comes though...we can record. We can reconstruct all of their emails along with attachments, see what web pages they clicked on, we can reconstruct their VOIP calls."

Each NarusInsight monitor is apparently remotely controlled and programmed by NSA and can forward filtered content over a secure broadband connection.

This capability was not first revealed by Snowden, it had been widely discussed since AT&T technician Mark Klein revealed this in 2006: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/interviews/klein.html

Obviously some people at NSA control the NarusInsight devices and the downstream filtered content. Such capability would obviously enable monitoring of the type Snowden mentioned.

The NarusInsight capability was also discussed in this 2010 PC World article: http://www.pcworld.com/article/190650/article.html
 
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  • #61
joema said:
Many have misunderstood Snowden's statement: "I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if I had a personal email".
...
However Snowden was using the term "authorities" to mean he had the technical tokens which activate those otherwise-restricted monitoring features. It's similar to an IT person saying "I have the permissions to access those files." It does NOT mean he has the official authorization -- it's a technical description.

Great points and now we hear he used a 'banned' thumb-drive to download the stolen documents.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-snowden-nsa-secrets-thumb-drive-20130613,0,791040.story

Snowden worked as a system administrator, a technical job that gave him wide access to NSA computer networks and presumably a keen understanding of how those networks are monitored for unauthorized downloads.

“Of course, there are always exceptions” to the thumb drive ban, a former NSA official said, particularly for network administrators. “There are people who need to use a thumb drive and they have special permission. But when you use one, people always look at you funny.”

They were "thumbed" again.
Operation Buckshot Yankee
 
  • #62
Some are suggesting Snowden may be working as a spy for the Chinese government. There are some reasons to believe that.

Even so, Snowden is NOT a whistleblower: President of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, said that using the word 'whistleblower' for Snowden is not justified as a whistleblower is a person who reveals wrongdoing, corruption, illegal activity which is not applicable to Snowden.

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/1848317/report-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-suspected-of-being-potential-double-agent-for-china
 
  • #63
Bobbywhy said:
Some are suggesting Snowden may be working as a spy for the Chinese government. There are some reasons to believe that.

Even so, Snowden is NOT a whistleblower: President of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, said that using the word 'whistleblower' for Snowden is not justified as a whistleblower is a person who reveals wrongdoing, corruption, illegal activity which is not applicable to Snowden.

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/1848317/report-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-suspected-of-being-potential-double-agent-for-china

Lying, spying for the Chinese... What's next? Can't say he's gay because he has a girlfriend but she is a pole-dancer. :rolleyes: It's the classic 'shoot' the messenger. He is irrelevant to the facts that have been released.
http://www.whistleblower.org/blog/44-2013/2755-snowden-misdirection-talking-heads-shoot-the-messenger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gq171XCmJFA#!
 
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  • #64
Bobbywhy said:
Some are suggesting Snowden may be working as a spy for the Chinese government. There are some reasons to believe that...Snowden is NOT a whistleblower: President of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, said that using the word 'whistleblower' for Snowden is not justified as a whistleblower is a person who reveals wrongdoing, corruption, illegal activity which is not applicable to Snowden...

The article you referenced to support your position says Snowden is a double agent for China. This is clearly impossible. Snowden apparently has the name and identity of every CIA Station Chief on earth. If he was a double agent, about 1/2 of them would already be dead, and we'd obviously know that: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3036697/ns/msnbc-hardball_with_chris_matthews/vp/52161213#52161213

What is the reaction to this? Rep. Peter King (R-NY), Senator Mitch McConnel (R-KY), and Mike Rogers (R-MI) and others say Snowden should be prosecuted to "the fullest extent of the law".

The fullest extent of the law is well-known: it is execution for treason. It doesn't seem smart to threaten to kill someone who (a) has (thus far) voluntarily withheld information that could wreak untold damage, and (b) is within easy reach of hostile powers.

Snowden is complaining about similar practices which in 2007 caused the Attorney General, FBI Director, and several other top justice officials to threaten to resign: http://www.seattlepi.com/national/a...to-standoff-at-Ashcroft-s-sickbed-1237491.php
 
  • #65
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-5...istening-to-u.s-phone-calls-without-warrants/

The National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls.

Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed this week that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed "simply based on an analyst deciding that."

If the NSA wants "to listen to the phone," an analyst's decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. "I was rather startled," said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee.

Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA's formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically, it also suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.
 
  • #67
Bobbywhy said:
Nadler's statements have been "retracted" and "corrected":

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/poli...t-thinks-nsa-can-listen-us-phone-calls/66278/

Double speak, the bottom line is that all calls are collected and stored then used later during a search for 'Foreign Intelligence targets' ("51% confidence of foreign citizenship") where there is a minimize procedure to separate out ‘inadvertently’ examined US only based calls. The NSA is not an isolated agency, we have data sharing agreements with English speaking countries in the world forming a global collection system that spies on each of the other partners to obtain information on 'Foreign Intelligence targets'.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...malised-special-relationship-with-the-US.html
GCHQ program:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...248600-d9f7-11e2-a9f2-42ee3912ae0e_story.html

Authorized by Section 702 of the amended Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), the program did away with the traditional individual warrant for each foreign suspect whose communications would be collected in the United States. In its place, the FISA court, which oversees domestic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes and whose proceedings are secret, would certify the government’s procedures to target people overseas and ensure citizens’ privacy.

Rules for NSA surveillance without a warrant

Administration officials say the surveillance program does not target Americans anywhere without a warrant. Still, said Gregory Nojeim, senior counsel for the Center for Democracy and Technology, “there’s a lot of leeway to use ‘inadvertently’ acquired domestic communications,” for instance, for criminal inquiries.
The next chapter:
U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...7497d8-dab1-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html
 
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  • #70
Haborix said:
That article is behind a pay-wall for me. So, we need another article that establishes that he is a spy, or for you to tell us that him being a spy is your opinion.

My mistake. It was just my opinion.

More news, according to the WSJ,

"Edward Snowden has boarded a plane to Moscow from Hong Kong. Hong Kong authorities have informed the U.S."
 
  • #71
Now that's interesting. I thought if China gave him up then it would only to be to the US; he seemed like a good bargaining chip for them.

Also, I think a slow and difficult prosecution is good in that future whistleblowers may not be dissuaded as easily. I don't know about everyone else but I feel most safe when the government and people in government are in the hot seat. Maybe one day our offensive military and intelligence apparatus will be thrown out, but that appears to be a pipe dream on my part.
 
  • #72
I hope Ecuador grants him asylum.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10892479
 
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  • #73
Kim Dotcom just posted on Twitter:
If you hack into US computers you get a decade in jail. If you hack Universities in China for the US Govt you get paid.

All I could do was laugh.
 
  • #74
And who's going to play Snowden in the upcoming movie? And who's going to direct it? Stone, or Spielberg?

I hear they are looking for someone 30ish, caucasian, all American looking, slightly unshaven, slightly nearsighted, male, with way too much computer savvy, and has been all around the world, to play the lead.

hmmm...

Has anyone heard from the boss lately?

snowden.blockbuster.movie.whos.starring.in.the.title.role.jpg
 
  • #75
OmCheeto said:
And who's going to play Snowden in the upcoming movie? And who's going to direct it? Stone, or Spielberg?

I hear they are looking for someone 30ish, caucasian, all American looking, slightly unshaven, slightly nearsighted, male, with way too much computer savvy, and has been all around the world, to play the lead.

hmmm...

Has anyone heard from the boss lately?

snowden.blockbuster.movie.whos.starring.in.the.title.role.jpg

:smile: OMG!
 
  • #77
PhysicsGente said:
It seems that Snowden was a Chinese spy after al IMO and Honk Kong won't send him back to the US.

"Snowden Alleges U.S. Hacking in China"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324577904578562483284884530.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Maybe he's a Russian, Cuban, Venezuelan, Ecuadoran spy. :rolleyes:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-snowden-20130624,0,1088900.story

MOSCOW — The hunt for Edward Snowden stretched around the globe Sunday as the 30-year-old leaker of U.S. classified material flew out of Hong Kong under cover of darkness, dropped into the protective embrace of Russia and made plans to hopscotch through Cuba and Venezuela to eventual asylum in Ecuador.
 
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  • #78
From http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda

Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.
 
  • #79
Bobbywhy said:
Even so, Snowden is NOT a whistleblower: President of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, said that using the word 'whistleblower' for Snowden is not justified as a whistleblower is a person who reveals wrongdoing, corruption, illegal activity which is not applicable to Snowden.

Slowly the story seems to unfold and it becomes clear why the US try to mark Snowden as a criminal by all means:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/29/us-usa-eu-spying-idUSBRE95S0AQ20130629

So the US bugged offices of the European Union and gained illegal access to their internal computer networks? Obviously the US wanted this news from becoming public. It is hard to keep the public image of being the good guys while simultaneously spying on allies and becoming a surveillance state. I would not be surprised if it turns out that the US already outdistanced China when it comes to industrial espionage.
 
  • #80
Cthugha said:
I would not be surprised if it turns out that the US already outdistanced China when it comes to industrial espionage.
Neither were I.
It will be very difficult for the US to get hold of Snowden on the grounds of international law as long as he has informations on the US breaking the laws in all the countries where he stays.
 
  • #81
Already now there is a lot of information out: Apparently, the NSA used Frankfurt/Germany as a base for it´s operations. I think it is only a matter of time until some investigative journalists will have hunted down some of the NSA staff as in the case of the CIA shanghaing persons or of the French secret services sinking of the rainbow warrior.
 
  • #82
StevieTNZ said:
I hope Ecuador grants him asylum.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10892479

Yeah, I agree I am glad I know this now... now I can return my Verizon cable box XD

trollcast said:
It looks like the Americans aren't the only ones at it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa

LOL. V for Vendetta. In the year 2025 America will break out in civil war get your Guns kid, its gunna be a blood bath.Mean while, Good ol' Britannia will be submissive until V shows up and blows up parliament XD
 
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  • #83
Updated PRISM slides:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/?hpid=z1

The newly released documents below give additional details about how the program operates, including the levels of review and supervisory control at the NSA and FBI. The documents also show how the program interacts with the Internet companies. These slides, annotated by The Post, represent a selection from the overall document, and certain portions are redacted.
 
  • #84
Greg Bernhardt said:
http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision...ying-explained/story?id=19347440#.UbIE0PnCbmE

What's everyone's take on this? I agree, it shouldn't be so shocking given the patriot act and other moves by the government, but are we really ok with this? It's a slippery slope and rarely can we get back our privacy. Are we ok with having our communications profiled for the rest of our lives?

This is great news: it will be harder and harder for terrorists and criminals to get away with crime since our government is doing better detective work. Had our government been as vigilant as this right from the start, we could have prevented the September 11th attacks.

The NSA is a great organization and President Obama has been doing a great job in keeping both the USA and the world safe while at the same time promoting freedom, human rights, and democracy across the globe. Personally, I would support a third term for him.
 
  • #85
Synaptic said:
This is great news: it will be harder and harder for terrorists and criminals to get away with crime since our government is doing better detective work. Had our government been as vigilant as this right from the start, we could have prevented the September 11th attacks.

The NSA is a great organization and President Obama has been doing a great job in keeping both the USA and the world safe while at the same time promoting freedom, human rights, and democracy across the globe. Personally, I would support a third term for him.

Haha, good one. It is a little ironic to have freedom quielty being dismantled at home, and then go abroad and publicly preach the virtues of freedom and human rights (generally includes privacy).

Did you all see that Putin said Snowden had to stop leaking US secrets if he wanted asylum. I guess it makes sense. You don't want this guy sitting in your country pissing off your adversary in a battle where there aren't any spoils to be had.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/politics/nsa-leak/index.html
 
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  • #86
Synaptic said:
This is great news: it will be harder and harder for terrorists and criminals to get away with crime since our government is doing better detective work. Had our government been as vigilant as this right from the start, we could have prevented the September 11th attacks.

The NSA is a great organization and President Obama has been doing a great job in keeping both the USA and the world safe while at the same time promoting freedom, human rights, and democracy across the globe. Personally, I would support a third term for him.

This is my take on it also. It's kind of like nosy neighbors. They are always watching everything going on in the neighborhood, waiting for someone to do something so they can call the police on them. Only, being mostly law abiding, they call the cops when the crackheads try to break into someones house while they're at work.

I don't really see the "They're taking away our liberty and freedom" argument. I still do whatever the heck I want.

Such is not true elsewhere:

Two Iranian bloggers are to be executed

Hey! Look! Tim Berners-Lee has something to say about it:

If criminals had access to that information about Members of Parliament or the military, the potential for blackmail could be huge. I think it's something this country needs to address.

This is actually my biggest worry, after bad mouthing the Turkish mafia on Facebook, and having them show up on my front porch the next day, with dogs.*

* This story has been embellished for dramatic effect. The young man was not Turkish, they were not on my porch, and there was only one dog. But it was a big dog. The biggest Doberman I've ever seen in my life. He turned out to be not as mean as I perceived him, as he didn't bite me when I walked him out of my back yard to his owner in the street. I told the young man the dog was not allowed in my back yard, as it was scaring the living daylights of my cats.
 
  • #87
OmCheeto said:
...
Such is not true elsewhere:
...

Bahrain student sentenced for insulting king
High school pupil Ali Al Shofa sent to prison for one year for insulting Gulf island's ruler via Twitter.

...

Saudis jailed for urging protests on Facebook
Seven activists to spend up to 10 years in prison for inciting anti-government protests, rights group reports.

Meanwhile, in Texas:

Teenager in jail since March for sarcastic Internet comment faces 8 years in prison
A teenager from Texas could spend the next eight years in prison if a court decides that the sarcastic comment he made during an online argument is enough to convict him of issuing a terroristic threat.

Oh! He was turned in by a Canadian Facebook spy!
Nosey neighbors...
 

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