Produce Scalar from Tensor: What's the Name?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the process of producing a scalar from a tensor through the manipulation of indices, specifically lowering and raising them, and the potential naming of this result. Participants explore theoretical aspects and applications related to tensor operations and metrics in various contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a method to produce a scalar from a tensor by inverting its indices and taking the inner product with the original tensor, questioning if there is a specific name for this result.
  • Another participant suggests terms like "Invertibility," "Metric," and "Adjointness" as potential names related to the process of raising and lowering indices.
  • A different participant proposes calling the result the "square-norm," relating it to the metric and its inverse, and provides a mathematical expression for forming the scalar.
  • One participant references the "Kretschmann scalar" in the context of black hole singularities, indicating a potential broader application of the scalar derived from tensors.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between the "square-norm" of a metric tensor and the number of dimensions of its manifold, with one participant affirming this belief.
  • Another participant confirms the calculation leading to the number of dimensions based on the properties of the metric tensor.
  • Concerns are raised about the degenerate nature of the metric in Galilean spacetime and its implications for the discussion, prompting questions about the definitions of various metrics.
  • Participants clarify the forms of nondegenerate and degenerate metrics in Euclidean, Minkowskian, and Galilean spacetimes, discussing their invertibility.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the naming of the scalar produced from tensors, with no consensus reached on a specific term. There is also a lack of agreement on the implications of degenerate metrics, leading to further questions and clarifications.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the properties of metrics and tensors, particularly regarding their invertibility and the conditions under which certain calculations hold. The implications of degenerate metrics in specific spacetimes remain unresolved.

snoopies622
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As I understand it, for a tensor of any rank I can produce a corresponding scalar in the following way: Create an inverted form of the tensor by lowering its upper indices and raising its lower indices, and then taking the inner product of this tensor and the original one.

My only question is, is there a name for this result?
 
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Invertibility?
Metric?
Adjointness (or whatever you call "raising/lowering indices", i.e. going from co- to contravariant and vv)
 
Loosely speaking, you can call it the "square-norm" since what you are really doing is analogous to g_{ap} A^a A^p.
(The quantity A_a= g_{ap} A^p is called the metric-dual of A^a.)

Given A^a{}_b{}^{cd}, you are forming the scalar using the metric [and its inverse]:
g_{ap} g^{bq} g_{cr} g_{ds} A^a{}_b{}^{cd} A^p{}_q{}^{rs}
 
Thanks, robphy.

I was wondering because in another thread someone mentioned using R^{abcd}R_{abcd} (the "Kretschmann scalar"?) in order to show that the event horizon of a Schwarzschild black hole is not a real singularity, and it occurred to me that such a thing might be useful in other circumstances as well, so surely there must be a name for it...

By the way, am I correct in my belief that the "square-norm" of any metric tensor is the number of dimensions of its manifold?
 
Yes, you can show that very easily. By definition, g^{ab} g_{bc} = \delta^a_c so if you contract a with c you get g^{ab} g_{ba} = \sum_{i = 1}^d 1 = d.
 
CompuChip said:
By definition, g^{ab} g_{bc} = \delta^a_c so if you contract a with c you get g^{ab} g_{ba} = \sum_{i = 1}^d 1 = d.

Ah, yes, of course. Thanks, CompuChip.
 
snoopies622 said:
By the way, am I correct in my belief that the "square-norm" of any metric tensor is the number of dimensions of its manifold?

As seen from CompuChip's response, the metric tensor must have an inverse for that calculation. (Note: The metric of a Galilean spacetime is degenerate.)
 
robphy said:
..The metric of a Galilean spacetime is degenerate.

I don't know what this means. Are you referring to a Euclidean metric? Minkowskian? And whether or not their matrix representations have inverses? Don't they?
 
snoopies622 said:
I don't know what this means. Are you referring to a Euclidean metric? Minkowskian? And whether or not their matrix representations have inverses? Don't they?

The nondegenerate (i.e. invertible) metric of an n-dimensional Euclidean space has
the diagonal form (+1,+1,...,+1,+1) in rectangular coordinates.

The nondegenerate (i.e. invertible) metric of an n-dimensional Minkowskian spacetime has
the diagonal form (-1,+1,...,+1,+1) in rectangular coordinates.

The degenerate (i.e. non-invertible) metrics of an n-dimensional Galilean spacetime has
the diagonal forms (0,+1,...,+1,+1) [for the spatial metric] and (+1,0,...,0,0) [for the temporal metric] in rectangular coordinates.
 
  • #10
Oh, OK. Thanks.
 

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