Proof of Baby Rudin: Unique Real y for x & n

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a proof of the theorem from Rudin that asserts the existence of a unique real number y for every positive real number x and integer n such that y^n = x. The focus is on the clarity and conciseness of the proof, as well as the mathematical identities used within it.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant critiques Rudin's proof for being overly wordy and suggests that certain statements may be unnecessary.
  • Another participant points out that the identity used in the proof does not hold for n=1, but later concludes that this does not affect the overall proof.
  • There is a discussion about whether it is necessary to state that t ≥ (y-k) when considering the case where y^n > x.
  • One participant emphasizes that the theorem's purpose is to demonstrate that every positive real x has a unique n-th root.
  • Another participant confirms the reasoning that if (y-k)^n > x, then y-k cannot be in the set E, leading to a contradiction regarding the least upper bound.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the main point of the theorem regarding the uniqueness of the n-th root for positive real numbers. However, there is ongoing debate about the clarity and necessity of certain steps in the proof, particularly regarding the identity used and the statement about t.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the implications of the identity used in the proof and its relevance for n=1. There are also unresolved questions about the necessity of specific statements in the proof.

Mogarrr
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I think I've found a proof where Rudin is actually too wordy! For your welcomed inspection, I will type a part of said proof, then comment.

Theorem: For every x>0 and every integer n>0, there is a unique real y such that y^{n} = x

Now the uniqueness portion is easy, since the reals are an ordered field.

Proof: Let E be the set of all positive real numbers t such that t^{n} < x. If t=x/(1+x), then t^{n} \leq t < x and t is not empty.
If t=1+x, then t^{n} \geq t > x, so 1+x is an upper bound for E.
This implies the existence of a y=supE.

At this point the strategy is to show that the cases where y^{n} <x, and y^{n} > x, are contradictory. To save time, I want to get to the point where I think Rudin is too wordy, that is the case where y^{n} > x.

Oh here's an identity he uses in the proof,

The identity b^{n} - a^{n} = (b-a)(b^{n-1} + b^{n-2}a + ... + a^{n-1}) yields the inequality b^{n} - a^{n} &lt; (b-a)nb^{n-1}, when 0<a<b.

Which isn't an identity for n=1. Did I just mess up this proof?


Back to the proof...

Assume y^{n} &gt; x. Put k = \frac {y^{n} - x}{ny^{n-1}}. Then 0<k<y. If t \geq (y-k), we conclude that y^{n} - t^{n} \leq y^{n} - (y-k)^{n} &lt; kny^{n-1} = y^{n} - x. Thus t^n &gt; x so t \notin E. It follows that y-k is an upperbound of E. But (y-k)<y, which contradicts the fact that y is the least upper bound of E.

Besides the identity that I'm hung up on (which I didn't catch until I started to type this proof). I don't think it's necessary to point out that t \geq (y-k), since, assuming I am mistaken about the said identity, I can write with less words that...

since 0<y-k<y, we have, y^{n} - (y-k)^{n} &lt; kny^{n-1} = y^{n} - x. This implies that (y-k)>x, and so (y-k) is an upper bound that is less than the Least Upper Bound y, which is a contradiction.

Any thoughts?
 
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Mogarrr said:
Which isn't an identity for n=1. Did I just mess up this proof?

Thought about this, and I realized that this doesn't matter. If n=1, then

y^{1}=y = x.

I'm glad I caught this. Still, any thoughts on the wordiness? Is it necessary to state that t \geq (y-k) in the case where y^{n} &gt; x is considered?

Considering another train of thought, the whole point of this theorem is to show that there are many irrationals in R, right?
 
The point is to show every positive real x has an unique n-th root, for n=1,2,3,... Notice the third line in your 1st post.
 
WWGD said:
The point is to show every positive real x has an unique n-th root, for n=1,2,3,... Notice the third line in your 1st post.

Yes, this is a good/useful point. What do you think about the former question? Was it necessary to write t \geq (y-k)?
 
I see, so (y-k)^n >x , so y-x is not in E, so y-k is an LUB <y . Yes, that seems like a correct point to me.
 
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