Proofs regarding uniform circular motion in vectors

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical treatment of uniform circular motion using vector calculus. Participants explore the derivation of velocity and acceleration vectors from a given position vector, and the challenge of expressing the acceleration vector as a sum of components that are anti-parallel to the position vector and parallel to the velocity vector.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the position vector for circular motion and derives the velocity and acceleration vectors, noting the challenge of expressing acceleration as a sum of specific vector components.
  • Another participant clarifies that an anti-parallel vector can be any negative multiple of the position vector, not just a simple multiplication by -1.
  • It is suggested that the coefficients for the anti-parallel and parallel vectors in the acceleration expression must be determined through the equation involving the acceleration vector, emphasizing that these coefficients are not arbitrary.
  • There is a discussion about the presence of the second time derivative of theta in the acceleration vector and where it originates from, with a suggestion that the coefficients can be functions of time rather than constants.
  • A later reply indicates that the realization of using time-dependent coefficients resolves some confusion regarding the parallel and anti-parallel vectors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the mathematical framework but express differing views on the interpretation of coefficients and the role of time dependence in the vectors. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific forms of the coefficients in the acceleration vector.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the coefficients for the vectors in the acceleration expression must satisfy certain conditions, and there is an acknowledgment of the linear independence of the position and velocity vectors, which complicates the solution.

skate_nerd
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Just started this Analytical Mechanics class, so I figured this question should go here...
I've been pretty stuck with a problem. I felt like I totally knew what I was doing but I've become very stumped.
We're given the vector for general circular motion,
$$\vec{r}(t)=Rcos(\theta(t))\hat{i}+Rsin(\theta(t))\hat{j}$$
And told to find the velocity vector. Easy enough...
$$\vec{v}(t)=\frac{d\vec{r}(t)}{dt}=-\dot{\theta}(t)Rsin(\theta(t))\hat{i}+\dot{\theta}(t)Rcos(\theta(t))\hat{j}$$
Next we were told to prove that the position and velocity vectors are perpendicular, which was a simple enough dot product of the two that indeed ended up equaling zero.
Then we were told to find the acceleration vector...fine...
$$\vec{a}(t)=\frac{d\vec{v}(t)}{dt}=\frac{d^2\vec{r}(t)}{dt^2}=-R[\ddot{\theta}(t)sin(\theta(t))+\dot{\theta}(t)^2cos(\theta(t))]\hat{i}+R[\ddot{\theta}(t)cos(\theta(t))-\dot{\theta}(t)^2sin(\theta(t))]\hat{j}$$
Phew.
Now here's where I ran into trouble. We have to show that the acceleration vector can be written as a sum of a vector that is anti-parallel to the position vector and another vector parallel to the velocity vector. I've never heard of anti-parallel before, but I'm assuming you just need to multiply each of the vectors components by -1.
Anti-parallel to position vector:
$$\vec{p}(t)=-Rcos(\theta(t))\hat{i}-Rsin(\theta(t))\hat{j}$$
and parallel to velocity vector I feel like would just make sense to be any constant multiple of the velocity vector. For simplicity, I think I can just use the velocity vector...
So \(\vec{p}(t)+\vec{v}(t)\) should = \(\vec{a}(t)\).
But nope, it doesn't. I got
$$-R[cos(\theta(t))-\dot{\theta}(t)sin(\theta(t))]\hat{i}-R[sin(\theta(t))-\dot{\theta}(t)cos(\theta(t))]\hat{j}$$
Any idea of what I am doing wrong? I have a feeling I am missing something conceptually, because the two added vectors are completely missing the whole second time derivative of the theta function. So I feel I am pretty far from the correct answer.
Any help is appreciated.
 
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skatenerd said:
Now here's where I ran into trouble. We have to show that the acceleration vector can be written as a sum of a vector that is anti-parallel to the position vector and another vector parallel to the velocity vector. I've never heard of anti-parallel before, but I'm assuming you just need to multiply each of the vectors components by -1.
It's not just -1 you can multiply with. Any negative multiple gives you an anti-paraller vector.

So anti-parallel to position vector:
$$\vec{p}(t)=-aRcos(\theta(t))\hat{i}-aRsin(\theta(t))\hat{j}, a>0$$

skatenerd said:
And parallel to velocity vector I feel like would just make sense to be any constant multiple of the velocity vector. For simplicity, I think I can just use the velocity vector...
Umm.. you don't have choice here. It's true that a vector parallel to the velocity vector would be a constant multiple of velocity vector but what this constant multiple will actually be is not upto us to choose.

You should work out the equation $\vec a(t)= \lambda \vec p(t) +\mu \vec v(t)$ and get $\lambda<0$ and $\mu>0$. Note that there's is just one pair of $(\lambda,\mu)$ which satisfies the above equation because $\vec p(t)$ and $\vec v(t)$ are linearly independent (You showed this by showing that $\vec p(t)$ is perpendicular to $\vec v(t)$). Whatever that pair comes out to be we have to live with it. :)
 
Thanks for the reply. I follow what you are implying, but I still don't see how I can end up with the conclusion I need. Any idea where the \(\ddot{\theta}(t)\)'s (that are prevalent in the acceleration vector) will come from?
 
skatenerd said:
Thanks for the reply. I follow what you are implying, but I still don't see how I can end up with the conclusion I need. Any idea where the \(\ddot{\theta}(t)\)'s (that are prevalent in the acceleration vector) will come from?
I see where you are getting confused. The thing is that $\lambda$ and $\mu$ themselves are functions of time. By a 'constant' multiple, here, we don't mean constant with time. By a constant multiple we just mean a scalar. Give it a try. If you get stuck I'll give you the solution in full. Right now I've got to run to class.
 
Ahhh okay no I have it now. I didn't really figure that multiplying by a function of time and a negative function of time would still give a parallel and anti-parallel vector respectively. That makes sense to me now. Thanks.
 
skatenerd said:
Ahhh okay no I have it now. I didn't really figure that multiplying by a function of time and a negative function of time would still give a parallel and anti-parallel vector respectively. That makes sense to me now. Thanks.
(Yes)
 

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