Prove that every integer n>= 14 is a sum of 3's and/ or 8's.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving that every integer \( n \geq 14 \) can be expressed as a sum of multiples of 3 and/or 8. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and exploration of proof techniques, particularly focusing on induction and linear combinations.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how to prove that \( n = 3k \) does not hold for \( n = 14 \), suggesting a misunderstanding of the problem's requirements.
  • Another participant provides an example showing that \( 14 \) can be represented as \( 3 + 3 + 8 \), indicating that the sum can include both 3's and 8's.
  • A participant clarifies that the goal is to demonstrate that \( n \) can be expressed as \( n = 3a + 8b \) for non-negative integers \( a \) and \( b \), noting that either \( a \) or \( b \) can be zero.
  • Further, a participant points out that while integer solutions for \( a \) and \( b \) exist for any integer \( n \), the challenge lies in ensuring that both \( a \) and \( b \) are non-negative.
  • Another participant suggests that induction may not be the most effective method and proposes starting with multiples of 3, indicating that for \( n = 3m \), \( a \) and \( b \) can be \( m \) and \( 0 \) respectively, which are non-negative if \( n \) is non-negative. They also raise a question about the properties of adjacent integers \( n-1 \) and \( n+1 \).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the best approach to prove the statement, with some favoring induction and others suggesting alternative methods. There is no consensus on a single proof strategy, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the most effective proof technique.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of ensuring non-negativity for the integers \( a \) and \( b \) in the linear combination, which introduces complexity to the proof. Additionally, the mention of adjacent integers raises further considerations about the problem's structure.

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Homework Statement



Prove that every integer n>= 14 is a sum of 3's and/ or 8's.

Homework Equations



Induction Hypothesis

The Attempt at a Solution



Base Case: P(0):

Suppose n= 14, and k is an integer representing number of times 3 or 8 is added:
14= 3k;
k=14/3 ( this shows that 14 is not a sum of 3's)

But the question says to show that. I'm confused on how to show that.
 
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14= 3+3+8
it's and/or
 
You need to be able to show that every number >= 14 is a linear combination of 3s and 8s. IOW, that n = 3a + 8b for some integer values of a and b, with a >= 0, b >= 0. (I don't think that either a or b can be negative, but either one could be zero.)

That's what you need to show, but I don't have any idea right now of how to go about doing this.
 
Mark44 said:
IOW, that n = 3a + 8b for some integer values of a and b, with a >= 0, b >= 0. (I don't think that either a or b can be negative, but either one could be zero.)
That parenthetical remark is essential. Consider n=13. This has solutions for a,b in the integers. For example, a,b = -1,2 and 7,-1 are both solutions to 3a+8b=13. In fact, given any integer n, there are an infinite number of solutions a,b in Z such that 3a+8b=n. So the problem is to not only show that integer solutions a,b exist but also to show that at least one such solution has both a and b non-negative.
 
BTW, induction might not be the best choice here. Start with multiples of 3, n=3m. This obviously has a,b=m,0 as one solution to 3a+8b=n, and this a,b is in the non-negative integers if n is non-negative. What can you say about the two adjacent integers, n-1 and n+1?
 

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