Prove the following statement about n-Manifolds

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving a statement related to n-manifolds, specifically focusing on the continuity of charts from open sets to R^n. Participants explore the implications of combining charts from two open sets and the nature of disjoint unions of manifolds.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that to show the continuity of the combined chart ##\phi^{X} + \phi^{Y}##, one must consider the properties of the product topology and how it relates to the components of the charts.
  • Others argue that the situation involves two lines rather than a plane, suggesting that the focus should be on the individual charts and their respective open sets in the context of the union of the manifolds.
  • One participant mentions that understanding the concept of a manifold should be straightforward, emphasizing that a manifold locally resembles Euclidean space and discussing the nature of disjoint unions of manifolds.
  • Another participant suggests that the confusion may stem from a misunderstanding of the disjoint union topology, which allows for open sets that can include the empty set.
  • A later reply emphasizes that if a point belongs to an open set in one manifold, it should still appear Euclidean when viewed locally, reinforcing the idea of local resemblance to Euclidean space.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about whether the goal is to provide a rigorous proof or simply to understand the concept, indicating a potential divergence in focus among contributors.
  • One participant proposes a simpler approach to the problem, suggesting that if charts can be established from the open sets of A and B to R^m, then the combined structure remains an m-dimensional manifold.
  • Another participant notes that to be rigorous, one can observe that if a chart exists in one manifold, the union with the empty set also forms a valid open set in the combined manifold.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of viewpoints, with some focusing on the technical aspects of the proof while others emphasize understanding the underlying concepts. There is no clear consensus on the best approach to the problem, and multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the importance of distinguishing between the product topology and the nature of disjoint unions, indicating that assumptions about the structure of the manifolds may affect the discussion. The conversation also reflects varying levels of rigor in the proposed approaches.

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I am trying to prove the statement i will print below, there is not much to talk here.
1604526749411.png

I am not sure how to start it, but yet, i imagined it:
Be ##\phi^{X}, \phi^{Y}## two charts from an open set ##A, B## to ##R^{n}##:
##\phi^{X}: A -> R^{n}##, where ##\phi^{X}## is continuous
##\phi^{Y}: B -> R^{n}##, where ##\phi^{Y}## is continuous​

I believe we need to show that ##\phi^{X}+\phi^{Y}: U = A\bigcup B -> R^{n}##, where ##\phi^{Y} + \phi^{X}## is continuous. But i am not sure how.
 
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LCSphysicist said:
Summary:: I am trying to prove the statement i will print below, there is not much to talk here.

View attachment 272149
I am not sure how to start it, but yet, i imagined it:
Be ##\phi^{X}, \phi^{Y}## two charts from an open set ##A, B## to ##R^{n}##:
##\phi^{X}: A -> R^{n}##, where ##\phi^{X}## is continuous
##\phi^{Y}: B -> R^{n}##, where ##\phi^{Y}## is continuous​

I believe we need to show that ##\phi^{X}+\phi^{Y}: U = A\bigcup B -> R^{n}##, where ##\phi^{Y} + \phi^{X}## is continuous. But i am not sure how.
It is usually written as a direct product and ##\phi^{U}:=\phi^{X}\times\phi^{Y}: U = A\times B -> R^{n}##. Not that it makes much difference, but it shows better that we can work with the components. And here is the key: Start with what you have to show in the product space, translate it according to the definition of the topology and the mappings ##\phi^{X},\phi^{Y}##. Then you have the situation in each component, which you clue again with the direct product. It is mainly a notation exercise, less a mathematical one. The product topology is made such that it can be split into the components, apply the property of being an ##n-## manifold and put it together again. It works with continuous, smooth, and homeomorphisms.
 
Fresh, this isn't the product topology though. If M and N are each a line, the object in question here is two lines, not a plane.

In fact I think the point here is to ignore the structure of the other side entirely. If you have a point in ##M\cup N##, it's either in ##M## or it's in ##N##. Let's suppose it's in ##M##. Then we know there's a chart for an open set ##U\subset M## containing our point.

Without any further notation, can you write some open sets in ##M\cup N##? They are really dumb and trivial and of the form ##U\cup X## for some set ##X## you already know.
 
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Office_Shredder said:
Fresh, this isn't the product topology though. If M and N are each a line, the object in question here is two lines, not a plane.
Thanks for the clarification. This makes more sense, as it prepares for foliations and covering spaces.
 
I don't know if the question is about giving a rigorous mathematical proof or about understanding it. But understanding it should be "easy". I.e. a space is a manifold if it looks locally like euclidean space everywhere.

I.e. stand at any point and look around near you - it should look euclidean. now a disjoint union of 2 manifolds is formed by taking one manifold and then another one a certain distance away and not meeting the first one. imagine two disjoint spheres with space between them. then choose a point. it is either in one sphere or the other, so if you look around very nearby, it looks like euclidean space, because you can only see points of the sphere your point is on.

My point is only that if you have any idea at all what a manifold is, this result should be pretty clear. So if it seems mysterious, please spend some serious time thinking about this.

maybe i am missing the point of confusion, i.e. maybe it was a misunderstanding about what the "disjoint union" topology defines, i.e. it defines the naive disjoint uniion. namely the point is that one can take as the open set in one space just the empty set, as suggested earlier.
 
Last edited:
mathwonk said:
I don't know if the question is about giving a rigorous mathematical proof or about understanding it. But understanding it should be "easy". I.e. a space is a manifold if it looks locally like euclidean space everywhere.

I.e. stand at any point and look around near you - it should look euclidean. now a disjoint union of 2 manifolds is formed by taking one manifold and then another one a certain distance away and not meeting the first one. imagine two disjoint spheres with space between them. then choose a point. it is either in one sphere or the other, so if you look around very nearby, it looks like euclidean space, because you can only see points of the sphere your point is on.

My point is only that if you have any idea at all what a manifold is, this result should be pretty clear. So if it seems mysterious, please spend some serious time thinking about this.

maybe i am missing the point of confusion, i.e. maybe it was a misunderstanding about what the "disjoint union" topology defines, i.e. it defines the naive disjoint uniion. namely the point is that one can take as the open set in one space just the empty set, as suggested earlier.
Yes, i was re reading the question... I don't know if there is a more rigorous way to do it, but:
I propose this, a simple answer by a beginner:
Seems now pretty obvious (here is the problem, maybe it is not obvious) that we can chart from the open sets of A to, say, Rm, and A is open. Now, we can chat too from B to Rm, being B open.
Now, If we get the disjoint between both the Manifolds, or the chart will leave from A's opensets, or it will need to leave from B's openset, to Rm, so immediately it is a manifold m dimensional.
 
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To be totally rigorous you can just observe if ##x\in U \subset M## is a chart, then ##U\cup \emptyset ## is an open set in ##M\cup N## and hence a chart with the same charting function.
 

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