Proving Abelian Group with Numbers and Operations

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around how to prove whether a set of numbers with a specific operation forms an abelian group. Participants explore the necessary steps and axioms involved in establishing group properties and commutativity.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about the process for proving a set with an operation is an abelian group.
  • Another participant suggests that there is a list of axioms that define an abelian group, implying that these must be satisfied.
  • A different participant emphasizes the importance of first proving that the set is a group before considering its abelian properties, highlighting the need to check the group axioms.
  • Some participants express frustration over perceived repetition of ideas and clarify that multiple axioms must be checked, not just commutativity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the order of proving group properties versus abelian properties, with some insisting on establishing group status first, while others focus on the axioms needed for an abelian group.

Contextual Notes

There is an ongoing debate about the necessary steps and axioms involved in proving a set is an abelian group, with some assumptions about the definitions and properties of groups remaining unresolved.

TimNguyen
Messages
79
Reaction score
0
Hello.

I was wondering how I could prove if a set of numbers along with some arbitrary operation is an abelian group.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Don't you have a list of axioms which says "G is an abelian group if and only if the following are satisfied: ..."?
 
The first step is proving that it is a group in the first place.

If it's not a group, than it certainly isn't an abelian group.

Then after that, look at the definition of what it means for a group to be abelian. Test it. Then you are done.

Hint: a*b = b*a (where * is the binary operation)
 
Sometimes it feels like people just repeat what I write.
 
Muzza said:
Sometimes it feels like people just repeat what I write.

You said...

Don't you have a list of axioms which says "G is an abelian group if and only if the following are satisfied: ..."?

That's assuming that it is a group, but he hasn't even shown that yet. I'd worry about proving that it is a group before even thinking about what properties the group might have.
 
That's assuming that it is a group,

No it isn't. I even used the plural of "axiom" to try to hint at the fact that several things, rather than just commutativity, needed to be checked.
 
Muzza said:
No it isn't. I even used the plural of "axiom" to try to hint at the fact that several things, rather than just commutativity, needed to be checked.

Good hint. :rolleyes:
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 42 ·
2
Replies
42
Views
5K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
9K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
2K
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
4K