Proving Lagrangian L is Not Uniquely Defined

  • Thread starter Thread starter Grand
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Lagrangian
Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The original poster attempts to prove that the Lagrangian \( L \) is not uniquely defined, specifically that it can differ by a total time derivative of a function \( \Lambda(\vec{q}, t) \). They express confusion regarding the application of this concept in the context of the Euler-Lagrange equations.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equations with the modified Lagrangian and question the implications of adding a total time derivative. There is a request for clarification on the calculation of derivatives and whether multiple coordinates are involved.

Discussion Status

Some participants provide guidance on handling the notation and derivatives involved in the problem. The discussion is ongoing, with participants exploring different interpretations and calculations without reaching a consensus.

Contextual Notes

The original poster expresses difficulty in applying the concept to the Euler-Lagrange equations, indicating a potential gap in understanding the implications of their modifications to the Lagrangian. There is also a mention of uncertainty regarding the number of coordinates involved in the problem.

Grand
Messages
74
Reaction score
0

Homework Statement


I am trying to prove that Lagrangian L is not uniquely defined, but only up to a time derivative of a function:
\frac{d\Lambda}{dt}, \Lambda(\vec{q}, t)

So

L > L+\frac{d\Lambda}{dt} = L+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q}~\dot{q}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial t}

But when I put it in the E-L eqns they definitely aren't as before.

Where have I gone wrong?

Homework Equations


The Attempt at a Solution

 
Physics news on Phys.org


Show us what you got when you tried to crank out the Euler-Lagrange equations.
 


Alright:

\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial q}

\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial}{\partial \dot{q}}(L+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q}~\dot{q}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial t})=\frac{\partial}{\partial q}(L+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q}~\dot{q}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial t})

\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{\partial L}{\partial q}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q})=\frac{\partial L}{\partial q}+\frac{\partial^2 \Lambda}{\partial q^2}~\dot{q}+\frac{\partial^2 \Lambda}{\partial q \partial t}
 


Now calculate what

\frac{d}{dt}\left(\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q}(q,t)\right)

is equal to.

(Do you only have one coordinate, or should you have qi's?)
 


Well I can't, so I am asking for help.
 


Don't be intimidated by the notation. The partial of Λ with respect to q is just another function of q and t. You find the total time derivative of it the same way you found the total time derivative of Λ(q,t).
 


I see. Thank you a lot.
 

Similar threads

Replies
8
Views
2K
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
Replies
1
Views
2K