Ptolemy's Theory of the Empty Focus of an Elliptical Orbit

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on Ptolemy's theory regarding the empty focus of an elliptical orbit and whether the angular velocity of a planet moving in such an orbit remains constant when measured from this empty focus. The scope includes theoretical considerations of orbital mechanics and historical perspectives on planetary motion.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that Ptolemy's claim about constant angular velocity from the empty focus is not true, particularly for highly eccentric orbits.
  • One participant provides a detailed comparison of distances and speeds at different points in the orbit, suggesting that the angular velocity is not constant and diverges for eccentric orbits.
  • Another participant questions the historical use of elliptical orbits by Ptolemy in modeling planetary motion.
  • One participant presents calculations related to angular velocity and distances in the context of perihelion and aphelion, seeking validation of their reasoning.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about the conversion in the calculations presented and indicates that the two values discussed are not equal.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the validity of Ptolemy's claim regarding constant angular velocity from the empty focus, with multiple competing views on the accuracy of the approximation and the calculations presented.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes unresolved mathematical steps and assumptions regarding the conditions of the orbits being analyzed, particularly concerning eccentricity and the definitions of angular velocity.

greswd
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An ellipse has two foci. For a planet in such an orbit, the star is at one of the foci. The other is empty.

According to Ptolemy, if we draw a line connecting the planet and the empty focus, we will find that the line moves at a constant angular velocity.

Is this true, or is it a crude approximation like epicycles?
 
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It is not true, and for highly eccentric orbits it is not even a good approximation. Take the point closest to the star, and compare it to the point where the planet has the same distance to both focal points. The distance is different by a factor of approximately 2, the speed is different by a factor that diverges for very eccentric orbits, and the point closest to the sun has a right angle between motion and the (empty focus - planet) line while the angle is close to 0 or pi for the other point. Therefore, the angular velocity ##\omega = \frac{v \sin \theta}{r}## won't be constant.
 
Do you have a reference for Ptolemy using elliptical orbits to model planetary motion?
 
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mfb said:
It is not true, and for highly eccentric orbits it is not even a good approximation. Take the point closest to the star, and compare it to the point where the planet has the same distance to both focal points. The distance is different by a factor of approximately 2, the speed is different by a factor that diverges for very eccentric orbits, and the point closest to the sun has a right angle between motion and the (empty focus - planet) line while the angle is close to 0 or pi for the other point. Therefore, the angular velocity ##\omega = \frac{v \sin \theta}{r}## won't be constant.

The perihelion is at a distance a (1-e). The other point is at a distance of a.
v1 a (1-e) = v2 sinθ a

From the other focus, the planet is at aphelion. The distance is a (1+e)
ω1 = v1 / a (1+e)
ω2 = v2 sinθ / a

v1 (1-e) / a should be equals to v1 / a (1+e)

but they are not. are my calculations correct?
 
I don't see how you converted v2 sin θ now, but the two are not equal, correct.
 

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