Question About Del: Why Does Formula Fail?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter AlonsoMcLaren
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Del
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the vector calculus identity involving the "del" operator (∇) and its behavior in different contexts. Participants explore why the identity holds in some cases but appears to fail in others, particularly in the context of vector fields and differential operators.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that the formula (*) holds for ∇x(∇xV) but fails for ∇x(UxV), questioning the underlying reasons for this discrepancy.
  • Another participant argues that ∇ is not a vector and highlights its non-commutative nature as a reason for the failure of the formula in certain applications.
  • A further response suggests that the use of the formula (*) in the context of ∇x(∇xV) may be coincidental, emphasizing that ∇ is a differential operator and cannot be treated like a vector in all cases.
  • One participant proposes that expressing vector identities in tensor notation could provide clearer insights, referencing delta Kronecker and epsilon Levi Civita symbols.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the nature of the "del" operator and its treatment in vector calculus. There is no consensus on whether the formula's applicability is coincidental or if it can be justified through a deeper understanding of differential operators.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the non-commutative property of ∇ and its classification as a differential operator are critical to understanding the limitations of the formula. The discussion does not resolve the implications of these properties on the validity of the identities used.

AlonsoMcLaren
Messages
89
Reaction score
2
Question about "del"

We know that A x (BxC)= (A·C)B-(A·B)C (*)

In the following example, we can treat ∇ as a vector and apply the formula (*) above to get the correct answer
∇x(∇xV)= ∇(∇·V)-∇^2 V

But in this example, the formula (*) seems to fail
∇x(UxV)≠U(∇·V)-V(∇·U)

Why?
 
Physics news on Phys.org


Because ∇ is NOT a vector, no matter how much we want it to act like one. For one, ∇ isn't commutative. (Vectors are)
 


Char. Limit said:
Because ∇ is NOT a vector, no matter how much we want it to act like one. For one, ∇ isn't commutative. (Vectors are)

Then why the textbook simply uses the formula (*) when deriving ∇x(∇xV)= ∇(∇·V)-∇^2 V ? Is it just a coincidence that the formula (*) works for ∇x(∇xV)= ∇(∇·V)-∇^2 V ?
 


It's just a coincidence. Nabla is a differential operator. You can't simply switch it from one term of a an equation to another without changing the result.

Vector identities are always easier to express in tensor notation, using delta Kronecker and epsilon Levi Civita.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 44 ·
2
Replies
44
Views
5K