- #71
Ryan_m_b
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
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Pythagorean said:I would take that as a non-reply. I specifically pointed out where a definition of consciousness failed (the medical one). I have a right to be skeptical that you (anyone) really even know what it means to be conscious to be able to judge other species in the first place. Being conscious isn't enough. In the words of Dennett, Everybody thinks they're an expert on consciousness because they're conscious. But they really have no scientific leg to stand on, only a philosophical and anecdotal one.
this is why I used the words "subjective experience" rather than consciousness. We have a bunch of philosophical and emotional baggage attached to the word consciousness.
I still have no clue whether other life forms have subjective experience; I don't even know how it arises in humans. I think the onus is on either side to prove invertebrates do or don't have subjective experience. Until then, it's philosophy.
By the way, since you're confident, where do you draw the line? Do lower mammals have subjective experience? What about insects, fish, worms? Obviously you wouldn't think single-celled organisms have any kind of experience if you don't think plants do. So where do you draw the line?
Can we now start talking about mechanisms for consciousness rather than vaguely restating our positions?
You previously said something to the effect of "plants are just a bunch of chemical interactions". So what you're saying is that humans have a soul that sets them apart or something? I don't get it. Maybe you started using the word "consciousness" to mean "soul" and still haven't realized it? Prove to me that you're more than chemical/physical interactions.
I'm sorry but you are completely constructing a straw man argument here. In no way did I suggest that humans needed a soul, however the emergent property of the human central nervous system creates consciousness. As far as we are aware consciousness is the only way one can experience anything (any unconscious event is marked by a lack of experience). In no way am I claiming to have absolute answers on what consciousness is but I would limit "subjective experience" to the domain of organisms with a central nervous system because as I have said, this is the only thing we know of that can create consciousness via emergence.
There's no need to get so aggressive, honestly