Quietly Pump Water 11ft - Ideas for Sump Pump Solutions

[gloo]

I need help with ideas on how to pump water our of a sump pump that is always filling up. Using a sump pump when the float is tripped is really load. I need something that quietly pumps the water out steadily while not using up huge power...but it needs to be quiet!

I see these aquarium pumps:

http://www.tetra-fish.com/Products/aquarium-air-pumps/whisper-air-pumps.aspx

They seem to be used for pumping air into aquariums. But I don't think they pump the water upward. I need something that will quietly, and efficiently pump upwards about 11 feet. I need this to run 24 hours.

Can someone tell me how i can convert this air pump to make water pump up 11 feet?

thx

 

[russ_watters]

An air pump is not a water pump. You need to buy a water pump.

You should try to estimate the flow rate you need by timing the pump you have now. Then you can select a pump based on the actual requirements of your sump. Note, however, that constant flow isn't really possible because the flow rate into the sump varies with how much rain you get. So the best you will be able to do is get a pump that pumps for longer, but still not quite continuously.

 

[Danger]

Maybe you could dig a hole deeper than your basement, run a hose to it, and use the syphon effect to do the draining. You'd have to use a pump to get it started each time, but it would then be self-sustaining. There would be other problems as well. In practical terms, I agree with Russ.

 

[gloo]

@ Russ -- Yes, I understand an air pump was not designed to do that. I have seen some examples of how guys have done that using air pumps to create something like a hydroponics set up. Most do not provide enough air power to pump water high enough (i need 12 feet).

Do you guys know of any silent pumps (aquarium, whatever...) that could pump 10 to 12 feet and run efficiently and quietly? My issue is not rain water as much as a high water table...so it's continuous.

@ Danger - my problem is that I don't have a drop point that can be lower so that the hose can let the water out. I could drill underneath my street to the other side of the street, but that isn't practical or legal.

 

[russ_watters]

I know about lots of pumps, but to provide a useful answer, I need to know the required flow rate.

 

[DaveC426913]

12 feet is quite a bit of hydraulic head. Good luck with that.

Do you guys know of any silent pumps (aquarium, whatever...) that could pump 10 to 12 feet and run efficiently and quietly? My issue is not rain water as much as a high water table...so it's continuous.

You can buy water pumps for aquaria (see image), and they are pretty silent - but that won't solve your problem. Every time it drains the holding basin (and it will) the pump will lose prime and will have to be shut off, refilled and reprimed.

That's why you're sort of stuck with a sump pump. They shut off and are self-priming.

 

[Danger]

Maybe we should address the noise issue instead of the type of pump. How about enclosing it in an insulated box (with a muffler-equipped vent hose to outside to prevent overheating)? You might get it down to a mild humming sound.

 

[DaveC426913]

Maybe we should address the noise issue instead of the type of pump.

Yeah. This is where I was going.

Gonna be tricky to dampen a pump that's alternately submerged and emerged from water, as well as a lot of in-between.

 

[gloo]

@ Dave C - what if i used some kind of timer that would run it for say 5 min and then shut off for 10 min?

@ Russ - I will try to get the flow rate. The only way i know how is to drain it as much i can to get the natural flow rate (not the rate it comes in after being backed up). I guess after that, I will just measure how long it takes to fill a certain height? then try to use the diameter (not a perfect cylinder but tappers at bottom) and get volume?

 

[gloo]

Does anyone know much about electrical timers? Is there one that is reliable and can be programmed to turn on for 10 min and then shut off? Is it better to get the ones with dials rather than digital timers which could possibly go wonky after a year or two?

G

 

[rbelli1]

Do you have a fully submersible pump? You could deepen the hole and alter the float so that both the on and off positions are under water. That would dampen the noise considerably.

BoB

 

[gloo]

can't deepen the hole ...it wouldn't help. I think much of the noise is the vibration of the pvc pipe on the sump pump. Yes the sump is submersed

 

[Danger]

I think much of the noise is the vibration of the pvc pipe on the sump pump.

Now you tell us...
Have you thought about replacing it with a rubber hose?

 

[rbelli1]

I was thinking that coupling the pump to the water would help a lot. The energy would be transferred into the foundation. Foundations don't generally move all that much.

 

[Danger]

I was thinking that coupling the pump to the water would help a lot. The energy would be transferred into the foundation. Foundations don't generally move all that much.

Agreed in principle, but if the pipe is the problem it shouldn't be necessary. When I read your prior post, I didn't realize that you were suggesting anchorage as the "trick" to it; merely being submerged would mean that the body of water would absorb and dissipate most of the sound. Adding the solidity of the foundation could actually amplify the vibrations under some circumstances (hence using shock mounts for such things as reciprocal compressors). I believe that you're on the right track, but it might take a bit of tweaking to get the optimum silence. Anyhow, it's better than my "muffled enclosure" idea.

 

[russ_watters]

12 feet is quite a bit of hydraulic head. Good luck with that.

Not really: if you are pumping out of a 3' deep hole in a 9' basement, that's pretty normal.

 

[russ_watters]

Here's a condensate pump that is 55 gph at 15' head -- but I'm not sure that that will be big enough. Sump pumps are sized the way they are sized for a reason -- that's what typical sumps need!

http://www.zoro.com/i/G3199585/?utm...INha1JT6WYfRZl6dxx7JQFW2YgVLQRnsfoaAl7a8P8HAQ

...because here's a randomly selected normal sump pump that flows 60x as much!
http://www.zoro.com/i/G3343225/?utm...irDHQibqfmnG9NYWhiu7s15-CXM3UewXcUaAo-z8P8HAQ

Another option might be to install a speed controller on your current pump and slow it down a bit. That will make it quieter. Something like this would probably work:
http://www.hydroponics.net/i/138604

 

[DaveC426913]

@ Dave C - what if i used some kind of timer that would run it for say 5 min and then shut off for 10 min?

You could do that but you'd be guessing - after a certain length of time your sump will have filled faster and be full, or the water pump will drain too fast and the sump will be empty.

However, if you used this in conjunction with your sump pump, at least your sump pump would kick in every few hours instead of every few minutes.

But remember the water pump will have to stay primed in order to keep working.

In my experience with aquaria and pools and pump systems, you are in for a bout of constant fiddling. You'll buy a $50 pump, then a $20 timer, set it up and spend the rest of your days fiddling with timer settings to get it juuuuust right because you're tired of coming home, stopping in the front hallway to listen for the pump to see if it's sucking air, then running downstairs, spending 15 minutes re-priming it, then ticking the timer back by another minute. After three months, you will tear it all out in disgust, throw the whole mess in the garbage and go spend $300 on a powerful, quiet sump pump.

 

[gloo]

I am not going to bet the barn that the pipe vibrating against the floor joist is the number one culprit. I definitely think there is a relationship because I notice that the sound upstairs, is different ...seemingly louder than when I am in the basement. Is it possible though to have a rubber that is 2.5 inch (like the pvc pipe that threads into the sump?

 

[DaveC426913]

Not really: if you are pumping out of a 3' deep hole in a 9' basement, that's pretty normal.

Yes, for a properly rated sump pump.

But he's talking about quiet little aquarium water pumps. What will be the flow rate for a 12 foot head?

Even pond pumps rarely have more than a 4-6 foot head. Imagine the power of a pond pump that can generate a fountain 12 feet high? (there are calculators for such things)

 

[gloo]

You could do that but you'd be guessing - after a certain length of time your sump will have filled faster and be full, or the water pump will drain too fast and the sump will be empty.

However, if you used this in conjunction with your sump pump, at least your sump pump would kick in every few hours instead of every few minutes.

But remember the water pump will have to stay primed in order to keep working.

In my experience with aquaria and pools and pump systems, you are in for a bout of constant fiddling. You'll buy a $50 pump, then a $20 timer, set it up and spend the rest of your days fiddling with timer settings to get it juuuuust right because you're tired of coming home, stopping in the front hallway to listen for the pump to see if it's sucking air, then running downstairs, spending 15 minutes re-priming it, then ticking the timer back by another minute. After three months, you will tear it all out in disgust, throw the whole mess in the garbage and go spend $300 on a powerful, quiet sump pump.

Yes, Dave, if i can just get the pump to run once every three or four hours...or longer, then that will be huge. Either that, or maybe not put a timer in, but chock the flow or find a pump that pumps slowly or at a slower rate and let the sump run once every four hours.

 

[gloo]

Here's a condensate pump that is 55 gph at 15' head -- but I'm not sure that that will be big enough. Sump pumps are sized the way they are sized for a reason -- that's what typical sumps need!

http://www.zoro.com/i/G3199585/?utm...INha1JT6WYfRZl6dxx7JQFW2YgVLQRnsfoaAl7a8P8HAQ

...because here's a randomly selected normal sump pump that flows 60x as much!
http://www.zoro.com/i/G3343225/?utm...irDHQibqfmnG9NYWhiu7s15-CXM3UewXcUaAo-z8P8HAQ

Another option might be to install a speed controller on your current pump and slow it down a bit. That will make it quieter. Something like this would probably work:
http://www.hydroponics.net/i/138604

Thanks Russ - the condensate pump is actually prettly loud, I have one hooked up to my furnace..I think it is not as loud as my sump pump...but louder than i wanted. But do i have to dunk that whole thing into the sump pit...which I don't think would be great for how that works.

Do you think that the speed controller would work for the aquarium pumps that DaveC mentioned? That way, I may not need a timer?

 

[gloo]

12 feet is quite a bit of hydraulic head. Good luck with that.You can buy water pumps for aquaria (see image), and they are pretty silent - but that won't solve your problem. Every time it drains the holding basin (and it will) the pump will lose prime and will have to be shut off, refilled and reprimed.

That's why you're sort of stuck with a sump pump. They shut off and are self-priming.

Dave...questions:

1. does this thing get dunked into the sump pit? Or can it stand outside the sump pit?

2. You seem to have experience with what I am trying to do...so the timer can actually be programmed to run every 10 minutes for about 5 minutes run time? Is it that flexible?

3. Do you think the speed controller Russ introduced in this thread can be used with the water pump you showed in the picture?

4. Do you think the rubber hose idea will work? I would do that If I can find one that is 1.5 inch diameter.

 

[Q_Goest]

Hi gloo, Couple things. I agree isolating the pump with a rubber hose might work well. But other things include reducing velocity through the pipe or securing the pipe better to the joists or studs where the pipe is routed through the house.

Do you know what size the pipe is and do you know what flow rate the pump you have is producing? With that, we could look at what kind of velocity you have. High velocity and loads induced by the flowing water could cause the pipe to move around and bang against things.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo, Couple things. I agree isolating the pump with a rubber hose might work well. But other things include reducing velocity through the pipe or securing the pipe better to the joists or studs where the pipe is routed through the house.

Do you know what size the pipe is and do you know what flow rate the pump you have is producing? With that, we could look at what kind of velocity you have. High velocity and loads induced by the flowing water could cause the pipe to move around and bang against things.

Hi Q Goest, I have put sponge like material where the pvc is in contact with the floor joist.

the size of the pipe connected into the sump pump is 1.5 inch. When the pump fires, I put my hand on pvc pipe that leads up to the top of the basement where it makes a 90 degree turn and goes to the storm drain. It seems the sound and vibration of the PVC is the main culprit. I may try to find a rubber house coupling to reduce the sound. Maybe that combined with making a sound proof room with thick absorbing sound materials may be the help.

I am still looking at the options of aquarium pumps because that would be a slower, but more constant flow and only fires 10 minutes for 5 min?

 

[gloo]

Agreed in principle, but if the pipe is the problem it shouldn't be necessary. When I read your prior post, I didn't realize that you were suggesting anchorage as the "trick" to it; merely being submerged would mean that the body of water would absorb and dissipate most of the sound. Adding the solidity of the foundation could actually amplify the vibrations under some circumstances (hence using shock mounts for such things as reciprocal compressors). I believe that you're on the right track, but it might take a bit of tweaking to get the optimum silence. Anyhow, it's better than my "muffled enclosure" idea.

Thanks for the help Danger - do you know of a rubber hoses that connect to sump pumps?? I was thinking about what you said, and been looking at rubber hoses...can't find one that is 1 inch or 1.5 inch... and how would I couple it into the sump pump? Would it be secure as pvc and pvc glue holding things together?

Wonder if it would be a safe idea to couple the 1.5 inch screw in (into the sump pump), and run it into a 3/4 rubber hose. Would that choked flow ruin the sump pump?

 

[DaveC426913]

1. does this thing get dunked into the sump pit? Or can it stand outside the sump pit?

There are many types. I was just showing an example of a large cartridge water pump for an aquarium.

The trick is how good the seals are. These pumps contain a large reservoir in which you are supposed to put filtering media. You don't need this, but it means the pump has a large mouth with a large O-ring seal, as well as inlets and outlets. If these will all work without leaking air, the pump can be in the air. But if not, the pump will need to be submerged, so it doesn't lose prime by leakage.

You'll have to check out the pumps to ensure the one you choose will keep a seal.

Problem with pond pumps is that they tend to need to be submerged and you won't have that luxury in your sump, since it will be drained regularly.

2. You seem to have experience with what I am trying to do...so the timer can actually be programmed to run every 10 minutes for about 5 minutes run time? Is it that flexible?

Flexibility is proportional to cost. But the $30 timers I've used have as many as 20 programs, meaning 20 on/off cycles per day. That means it could only cycle less than once per hour. But you can set the length. So,
1] on at 12:01 off at 12:21 (7 days/week)
2] on at 1:31 off at 1:51 (7 days/week)
...
20] on at 11:01, off at 11:20 (7 days/week)
Or whatever.

3. Do you think the speed controller Russ introduced in this thread can be used with the water pump you showed in the picture?

No need. With the above flexibility, you could dial the on time back by a minute at a time until your gallons per day throughput matches your needs.

Besides, the pumps have built-in flow restrictors. Better to alter the water flow than the motor revs.

But - this will still mean you're fiddling with it occasionally, because you'll never get it quite right. Especially since your inflow to the basin will change constantly with the weather.

4. Do you think the rubber hose idea will work?

Uh, you mean on the sump pump itself? to quiet the noise? Not sure how that would work. The outlet of a sump pump is already a hose, and you can't isolate the inlet since it is integral to the pump.

You wouldn't need to do that on a water pump, as they run pretty much silently.

I would do that If I can find one that is 1.5 inch diameter.

These pumps tend to use 1/2" rubber tube. I can't imagine trying to pump water up a 1 1/2" hose. What is the weight of a column of water 12 feet tall and 1.5" in diameter? About 40lbs? But I may be misunderstanding the purpose here.

 

[Q_Goest]

I take it you don't know the flow capacity? Do you know what power the motor is?

 

[gloo]

I take it you don't know the flow capacity? Do you know what power the motor is?

The pump power is 1/4 horsepower.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo, Couple things. I agree isolating the pump with a rubber hose might work well. But other things include reducing velocity through the pipe or securing the pipe better to the joists or studs where the pipe is routed through the house.

Do you know what size the pipe is and do you know what flow rate the pump you have is producing? With that, we could look at what kind of velocity you have. High velocity and loads induced by the flowing water could cause the pipe to move around and bang against things.

The size of the pipe that is screwed into the sump pump is 1.5 inch. Do you think choking it with a 3/4 rubber hose will ruin the motor?

 

[gloo]

There are many types. I was just showing an example of a large cartridge water pump for an aquarium.

The trick is how good the seals are. These pumps contain a large reservoir in which you are supposed to put filtering media. You don't need this, but it means the pump has a large mouth with a large O-ring seal, as well as inlets and outlets. If these will all work without leaking air, the pump can be in the air. But if not, the pump will need to be submerged, so it doesn't lose prime by leakage.

You'll have to check out the pumps to ensure the one you choose will keep a seal.

Problem with pond pumps is that they tend to need to be submerged and you won't have that luxury in your sump, since it will be drained regularly.Flexibility is proportional to cost. But the $30 timers I've used have as many as 20 programs, meaning 20 on/off cycles per day. That means it could only cycle less than once per hour. But you can set the length. So,
1] on at 12:01 off at 12:21 (7 days/week)
2] on at 1:31 off at 1:51 (7 days/week)
...
20] on at 11:01, off at 11:20 (7 days/week)
Or whatever.No need. With the above flexibility, you could dial the on time back by a minute at a time until your gallons per day throughput matches your needs.

Besides, the pumps have built-in flow restrictors. Better to alter the water flow than the motor revs.

But - this will still mean you're fiddling with it occasionally, because you'll never get it quite right. Especially since your inflow to the basin will change constantly with the weather.Uh, you mean on the sump pump itself? to quiet the noise? Not sure how that would work. The outlet of a sump pump is already a hose, and you can't isolate the inlet since it is integral to the pump.

You wouldn't need to do that on a water pump, as they run pretty much silently.These pumps tend to use 1/2" rubber tube. I can't imagine trying to pump water up a 1 1/2" hose. What is the weight of a column of water 12 feet tall and 1.5" in diameter? About 40lbs? But I may be misunderstanding the purpose here.

Dave, when you say built in flow restrictors, does that mean it I could make it less flow? Would I need to put on a smaller diameter hose?

Dave, I have a high water table..the water coming in is not a function of rain as natural high water table. So it could always run. Bottom line is, if i can make the sump pump just run once every 4 hours? or even better ...every ten hours, then this is the best solution. Do you think the flow restrictor will allow me flexibility or granularity of control, that I can tinker it to make the sump run just once every 8 hours...or whatever??

 

[Q_Goest]

Hi gloo. A 1/4 hp motor sump pump produces between 700 and 1000 GPH so velocity is very low, around 2 ft/s. I'm surprised the piping is making any noise, perhaps it's not related to velocity and only to some interaction with the pump. A 3/4" rubber hose is a bit small though. One thing it would do is restrict flow so that a much lower flow rate was passing out through the pipe. You don't need something that small though. I'd suggest going to a swimming pool or hardware store to find proper hose that's large enough for this.

If a lower flow rate cuts back on the noise, you might consider putting a valve in the discharge and simply close it part way to reduce flow. Sump pumps are 'dynamic' pumps with an impeller so that increasing pressure on the discharge results in reduced flow rate. You can get that affect by pinching down on a valve that's installed on the discharge. Pinch down just enough and you might get rid of the pipe noise without having to put a different pump in.

 

[russ_watters]

Hi gloo. A 1/4 hp motor sump pump produces between 700 and 1000 GPM

I think you mean gph.

 

[Q_Goest]

I think you mean gph.

Thanks. Yes, GPH. I'll edit the original post.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, when you say built in flow restrictors, does that mean it I could make it less flow? Would I need to put on a smaller diameter hose?

More accurately, they redirect the flow away from the outflow (so it simply circles). This reduces the outflow, without putting a strain on the motor.

But why would you want to restrict the flow? You're restricting the output by way of the timer.

Dave, I have a high water table..the water coming in is not a function of rain as natural high water table. So it could always run. Bottom line is, if i can make the sump pump just run once every 4 hours? or even better ...every ten hours, then this is the best solution. Do you think the flow restrictor will allow me flexibility or granularity of control, that I can tinker it to make the sump run just once every 8 hours...or whatever??

Yeah, in theory. I'm still not sure you're going to find a pump that will have any kind of flow rate for a 12 foot head.

That's question #2 for the store guy.

So:
1] will this pump work without having to be submerged?
2] what is the flow rate for a 12 foot head?

But five'll getcha ten, when you explain what you're trying to do, they'll tell you that "it sounds like what you need is a sump pump". ;)

And you're going to be paying a pretty penny ($100+).