Quietly Pump Water 11ft - Ideas for Sump Pump Solutions

[Danger]

He is talking about supplementing the sump with a regular pump. It is this regular pump that will run on a timer.

I know that I said that I'm out of the thread, but something strikes me about those sentences. Couldn't the sump pump (without a supplemental one) be set on the timer, but with float-switch overrides to satisfy Travis' concerns about running dry or flooding?
I'm thinking of something like a "limit switch" setup, wherein mains power has a parallel path around the timer to the float switches.

 

[russ_watters]

As am I. ;) However, we are not talking about air pumps anymore. We are talking about water pumps.

They are self-contained cartridge filters that have a built-in pump. This is not really what they were made for, and I am still concerned about the lift/head. I am concerned that gloo will go out and purchase a $100 pump only to discover that it will not lift water to a 12 foot height.

Oops, well, fortunately my answer happens to be the same.

Amazon lists the entire product line of a particular pump and the max head of any of them is 10'. So no, they won't work.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0027J67GS/?tag=pfamazon01-20

The entire purpose here is to reduce the amount of time the sump pump comes on from every 10 minutes down to every few hours or more. This could be done with a supplementary pump and careful tuning.

I don't see what value a timer would add, but whatever the case, if he gets a smaller pump it will have to run more often, not less often.

 

[gloo]

I know that I said that I'm out of the thread, but something strikes me about those sentences. Couldn't the sump pump (without a supplemental one) be set on the timer, but with float-switch overrides to satisfy Travis' concerns about running dry or flooding?
I'm thinking of something like a "limit switch" setup, wherein mains power has a parallel path around the timer to the float switches.

@ Danger... I am not sure what you are saying. I was hoping to use air pump cause it was quiet (but doesn't sound technically possible given air pump power) and not use regular sump pump. It's all about the noise because I didn't want sump running at night cause it was loud.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't see what value a timer would add, but whatever the case, if he gets a smaller pump it will have to run more often, not less often.

The entire idea here is to make the (noisy) sump pump turn on less often.

A supplementary pump will result in the sump filling much slower. That means the noisy sump pump will (in theory) kick in only every few hours (or even days), instead of every few minutes.

The reason for the timer is because the supplementary water pump has no feedback like the sump pump does so, if left to its own devices, it will simply drain the sump, suck air and lose prime. You set it to a direction wherein the sump is mostly drained each time, but over days, ultimately it fills up, then the sump pump kicks in and drains it rapidly.

 

[gloo]

The entire idea here is to make the (noisy) sump pump turn on less often.

A supplementary pump will result in the sump filling much slower. That means the noisy sump pump will (in theory) kick in only every few hours (or even days), instead of every few minutes.

The reason for the timer is because the supplementary water pump has no feedback like the sump pump does so, if left to its own devices, it will simply drain the sump, suck air and lose prime. You set it to a direction wherein the sump is mostly drained each time, but over days, ultimately it fills up, then the sump pump kicks in and drains it rapidly.

So Dave...not sure you saw my questions earlier but here they were:

1. Does that one require the entire thing to be dunked into the water? Or just one end of a hose or tube?

2. Can that lift 11 to 12 feet?

 

[Danger]

I was hoping to use air pump cause it was quiet

I understand what you want to accomplish, and I sympathize with you, but the reason that an air pump is called an air pump is because it's designed to pump air, not water. The two types don't even work the same way. For one thing, no air pump that I'm familiar with is waterproof. In the case of aquarium units, they're usually mounted outside of the tank on a dry surface.
The other thing that I have to ask is how long you have been in this environment. When I first moved to this town, the sound of the trains (especially if they blew their horns) disturbed my sleep. Within a few weeks I didn't notice while asleep. Now, 30+ years along the road, I can't hear them even if I try during daytime. By the same token, my oxygen unit snores like a hippogryph and is sitting 3 metres away from me. Same result as with the trains, except that I can hear the thing when I'm awake and paying attention to it. Normally, even awake, I don't notice it.
Is the disturbance possibly something that you can just wait out until becoming acclimated to it?

 

[DaveC426913]

Thus.

Note the noise intervals. That's the goal here.

In theory, if you adjust the timer on the supplementary pump finely enough, you could stretch out that interval indefinitely - days or weeks - in theory.

(Again, I am not really advocating for this solution, just helping out the OP.)

 

[DaveC426913]

Say, gloo, the point of a float-triggered sump pump is that it only kicks in once the float is triggered. If you raise the float a foot or two, it will wait a lot longer until the sump is full.

Can you?

 

[DaveC426913]

So Dave...not sure you saw my questions earlier but here they were:

1. Does that one require the entire thing to be dunked into the water? Or just one end of a hose or tube?

There are types that can run without being submerged. The image is nothing more than an example of a cartridge-type pump.

2. Can that lift 11 to 12 feet?

Almost certainly not.

I must stress to you that you do not have a solution yet, only an option that could be explored. You will have to do the research to make sure you find a pump that needs your needs (if there is one that fits those criteria) The combination of 12 foot lift, and non-submersible may very well be a null set.

You will have to ask at pond stores. (Water pumps for aquaria don't normally have to deal with fountains or waterfalls, so are not normally concerned about lift.)

Do not buy until you are sure the pump you have will meet your needs.

 

[gloo]

I am fine with the noise... my wife less so. But when her parents come to sleep over, they are not thrilled to say the least. It really isn't a big deal for me...i just have to switch out the pumps every 3 years. I have a water pressured sump pump that uses the venturi effect and city water pressure if the power goes out for an extended period of time (like the ice storm that put our city of power for 3 days).

 

[gloo]

I was going to say that there are these manual cranking water pumps that are quit quiet when i crank them to pump. too bad there isn't some quiet motor that I can use to run it (timer based?).

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Manual-Barrel--Hand-Pump/Rotary-Hand-Pump/8334104.p

Does anybody else have something creative?

 

[gloo]

Oops, well, fortunately my answer happens to be the same.

Amazon lists the entire product line of a particular pump and the max head of any of them is 10'. So no, they won't work.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0027J67GS/?tag=pfamazon01-20I don't see what value a timer would add, but whatever the case, if he gets a smaller pump it will have to run more often, not less often.

So Russ, you know the most about regular sump pumps I guess ( as well as Goest). From what I have learned to get the quietest sump pump going do the following:

1. Get a low velocity pump (Goest suggestion) - does this mean 1/4 hp is quieter than 1/2 hp?
2. Make sure the sump pump is sumbersible and high quality cast iron that is oil primed
3. Use rubber hose if possible to reduce virbation
4. Use sponge or material between pvc pipe (if not rubber hose) and floor joist and sump pit walls
5 Insulate floor joist using sound proof insulation
6. Should I build an enclosure room with sound proof insulation?

 

[DaveC426913]

I have found a range of external pumps (also known as inline) that have lifts as high as 18 feet. (course, it's 240V)There is a 110V pump with a 13.5' lift:

SUP02722 -1200-gph w/18' cord - 6.5 x 3 x 5.5 (Model 12)
110 watts; 1.5 amps. 880-gph @ 3'; 580-gph @ 10'; max lift 13.5'.

And it's magnetic, so it should be quiet.

http://www.thepondoutlet.com/home/tpo/page_2190_235/pondmaster_mag-drive_pumps.html

Open the 'Features' tab.

 

[gloo]

I have found a range of external pumps (also known as inline) that have lifts as high as 18 feet. (course, it's 240V)There is a 110V pump with a 13.5' lift:

SUP02722 -1200-gph w/18' cord - 6.5 x 3 x 5.5 (Model 12)
110 watts; 1.5 amps. 880-gph @ 3'; 580-gph @ 10'; max lift 13.5'.

And it's magnetic, so it should be quiet.

http://www.thepondoutlet.com/home/tpo/page_2190_235/pondmaster_mag-drive_pumps.html

Open the 'Features' tab.

How does this work? Does it have to be submerged? Or just one end of tubing in the water.

And what about priming issue? I guess the timers have to come in play or it will burn out?

 

[Danger]

I am fine with the noise... my wife less so. But when her parents come to sleep over, they are not thrilled to say the least.

Dude! You're sitting on a gold mine! Do you have any idea of how many guys want their in-laws to be too uncomfortable to stay?

 

[DaveC426913]

How does this work? Does it have to be submerged? Or just one end of tubing in the water.

External or "inline" pumps are designed to work while out of the water. Just stick the inflow tube into the water.

And what about priming issue? I guess the timers have to come in play or it will burn out?

No. You're going to set the timer so that the pit never runs dry. That's the whole point of limiting how long the water pump runs for.

This also means you'll have to raise the sump pump a few inches, so that the pit never runs dry, and so the water pump always has some water to pull. Yeah, this could get tricky. If the sump pump drains down to one-inch, then the water pump kicks in and runs for 20 minutes, you'll end up running the pit dry and losing prime. The water pump can theoretically self-prime, but it won't if there's barely an inch of water in your pit.

One way to help the water pump flow rate as well as self-prime, is to put the water pump as low as possible, so the inflow tube is as shirt as possible. Sit the water pump on the pit floor. It will only have to draw a foot, which is good, and it doesn't matter if it's submerged part of the time.

But all this is why I think you'll be constantly fiddling with the setup.

Gloo:

1] How fast does the pit fill with water? How many gallons - in your estimation - are entering the pit each hour (if you shut the sump pump off)? We need to know this.
2] How high is your float? Can it go higher?

 

[Q_Goest]

From what I have learned to get the quietest sump pump going do the following:

1. Get a low velocity pump (Goest suggestion) - does this mean 1/4 hp is quieter than 1/2 hp?
2. Make sure the sump pump is sumbersible and high quality cast iron that is oil primed
3. Use rubber hose if possible to reduce virbation
4. Use sponge or material between pvc pipe (if not rubber hose) and floor joist and sump pit walls
5 Insulate floor joist using sound proof insulation
6. Should I build an enclosure room with sound proof insulation?

Hi gloo. This is a very good summary. I'd definitely recommend trying #3, 4, 5 and 6 before you put money into a new pump. Your existing 1/4 hp pump is relatively small and should work very well. Although it's new, you also should consider checking it for any damage by running it in the sump with the discharge pipe removed so it's just circulating water inside the sump to see if it's making any strange noise or vibration. But your list here is great starting point and I'd recommend trying those on your list first. If you're still having issues with the pump, I'd be interested in hearing from you.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo. This is a very good summary. I'd definitely recommend trying #3, 4, 5 and 6 before you put money into a new pump. Your existing 1/4 hp pump is relatively small and should work very well. Although it's new, you also should consider checking it for any damage by running it in the sump with the discharge pipe removed so it's just circulating water inside the sump to see if it's making any strange noise or vibration. But your list here is great starting point and I'd recommend trying those on your list first. If you're still having issues with the pump, I'd be interested in hearing from you.

so # 1 is true? higher hp means more noise?

 

[DaveC426913]

so # 1 is true? higher hp means more noise?

Surely, yes. And that was one of the my concerns. Many of the external pump (that like like a pool pump) are quite noisy.

The nice thing about the magnetic pumps is that they are virtually silent.

 

[Danger]

Okay... I'm going to go way out on a limb here, just because I'm at my wits' end.
This would be expensive and inconvenient, but just might possibly do the job if, and only if, you are correct about a hand-cranked pump being quiet. How about using a pneumatic or hydraulic motor on the pump itself, and mount the power system in your garage or out in the woods or some other place where you can't hear it?

 

[RonL]

Hi gloo,
I'm having a sleepless night, so looked at your problem and can't understand exactly why the noise with an electric sump pump system.
I suspect you have a typical system ? if so, does it get loud at the end of pumping the sump dry ? if yes, it might be cavitating air, this might be corrected by setting the float switch so that it shuts the pump off leaving a little water in the sump.
You mentioned a check valve at one point, a good valve at the pump and maybe a second check valve at the storm drain discharge point would lock the water column in the pipe thus preventing that water in the pipe from falling back into the sump.
A good two inch pump would make for a fast cycle time. All the sump pumps I have ever used have been very quite and produced a smooth water flow.

These are the only thoughts I have, best wishes

Ron

 

[Danger]

...looked at your problem and can't understand exactly why the noise with an electric sump pump system.

That's been bugging the hell out of me too, but since he's so adamant about it I just tried to overlook it. When I lived down east for 13 years, I had a sump pump in my basement and never once even heard the thing when it came on, let alone be bothered by it.

 

[gloo]

Okay... I'm going to go way out on a limb here, just because I'm at my wits' end.
This would be expensive and inconvenient, but just might possibly do the job if, and only if, you are correct about a hand-cranked pump being quiet. How about using a pneumatic or hydraulic motor on the pump itself, and mount the power system in your garage or out in the woods or some other place where you can't hear it?

Yeah , if i had the time and was mechanically inclined, i would try to do this using some kind of timer. Unfortunately, i don't have the sophistication to try that. I also don't have a spot to house the motor.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo,
I'm having a sleepless night, so looked at your problem and can't understand exactly why the noise with an electric sump pump system.
I suspect you have a typical system ? if so, does it get loud at the end of pumping the sump dry ? if yes, it might be cavitating air, this might be corrected by setting the float switch so that it shuts the pump off leaving a little water in the sump.
You mentioned a check valve at one point, a good valve at the pump and maybe a second check valve at the storm drain discharge point would lock the water column in the pipe thus preventing that water in the pipe from falling back into the sump.
A good two inch pump would make for a fast cycle time. All the sump pumps I have ever used have been very quite and produced a smooth water flow.

These are the only thoughts I have, best wishes

Ron

@ Ron -- thanks for your input Ron. Yes, I am not that sophisticated in terms of sump pump knowledge. I have been asking around and researching more using the input given to me in this thread and I sooo appreciate the help and the concern from everyone. Some questions for you since you seem to be quiet knowledgeable about the subject:

1. What is the power rating of your pump? 1/4, 1/3/ 1/2? Q Goest in this forum mentions that 1/4 is quieter than a 1/3 or 1/2 because less power and velocity means less vibration
2. Yes, in terms of air cavitation, i don't think it sucks all the water out so that the pump is sucking out air (is that what you mean about air cavitation??). But what i do notice is that their is this weird sound after the water is expelled and the sump pump shuts off. It's like a some kind of air release mixed with water coming out of the back up sump pump pvc pipe that is attached to the main expelling pipe. What is causing this do you think?
3. Where should the check valve be optimally located?? Near the sump pump? Just before the vertical turns horizontal? What is the best type of check valve in terms of type or brand (heard something about spring based)
4. How can i coat the sump pump so that it doesn't rust?! Sometimes I think the sump breaks because it is cast iron and rusts out rather than motor issue.
5. What brand do you think is best for sump??

 

[gloo]

That's been bugging the hell out of me too, but since he's so adamant about it I just tried to overlook it. When I lived down east for 13 years, I had a sump pump in my basement and never once even heard the thing when it came on, let alone be bothered by it.

Thanks for caring Danger - I think the vibration part is better since i did a few things the last day or two..
1. I put some sponge around where the PVC pipe is touching the lip of the sump pit.
2. I will also wrap the pvc pipe the best I can with with sound proof insulation.
3. I will put some of the sound proof insulation up against between the floor joist
4. Maybe I can build an encasement room with insulation proofing.

More so now, I think the problem i need to address the is the air sound...like a weird air sucking sound.

 

[Danger]

Yeah , if i had the time and was mechanically inclined, i would try to do this using some kind of timer. Unfortunately, i don't have the sophistication to try that. I also don't have a spot to house the motor.

Well, to start with, a timer isn't needed in this instance because you can set the flow rate to whatever you want. In the case of a pneumatic system, the exhaust will be bubbles, so the only noise will sound like goldfish farts. If you go hydraulic, you need a return line which adds significantly to the cost but not the complexity.
For coupling the motor to the pump, I'm quite willing to bet that if you take both to your local automotive repair shop, the mechanic will be able to mate them up in short order and at a fairly low cost. (That's up to him/her, of course. If you have one who is also a friend, he might do it for free... which in my culture means that you have 6-pack waiting when he arrives.)

edit: You made your last couple of posts while I was composing this one. I wasn't ignoring them; I just didn't see them until now.

More so now, I think the problem i need to address the is the air sound...like a weird air sucking sound.

I once got divorced over that very issue...

 

[gloo]

Well, to start with, a timer isn't needed in this instance because you can set the flow rate to whatever you want. In the case of a pneumatic system, the exhaust will be bubbles, so the only noise will sound like goldfish farts. If you go hydraulic, you need a return line which adds significantly to the cost but not the complexity.
For coupling the motor to the pump, I'm quite willing to bet that if you take both to your local automotive repair shop, the mechanic will be able to mate them up in short order and at a fairly low cost. (That's up to him/her, of course. If you have one who is also a friend, he might do it for free... which in my culture means that you have 6-pack waiting when he arrives.)

edit: You made your last couple of posts while I was composing this one. I wasn't ignoring them; I just didn't see them until now.I once got divorced over that very issue...

LOl...oh man, I am not going to ask you to expand on that one Danger. I am about to post a video in a bit which should show the pump and you should be able to hear the sound. The motor sound is something I can tackle now with some insulation (i really really hope). But the air sucking sound seems more prevalent now.

I wish i can just find a really really slow quiet pump that can run for a certain period...one that is pump just slower than the rate at which it comes in. I still need to measure the flow rate. My problem in measuring the flow rate which guys like Russ Watters, DaveC and Goest are asking , is that the water comes in slower if i suck the pit all the time. MOstly it gets backed up around my house in the weeping tiles; whenever the sump pump goes, it will suck up a certain amount, but fills up quite quickly cause it is being filled up with backed up water in the weeping tile system. So what is the real rate?? The one that is measured with filling sump pit with backed up water; or the the rate if I constantly pump out the pit and don't let the weeping tiles fill up??

 

[Danger]

Hey, now! You never mentioned that part before. You just put this onto a whole new playfield. I'm not really familiar with the specific aspects of it since I live in a place where I don't have to deal with it, but... could you perhaps install an auxiliary pump with the intake in the weeping tile conduit rather than inside your house?

 

[gloo]

Hey, now! You never mentioned that part before. You just put this onto a whole new playfield. I'm not really familiar with the specific aspects of it since I live in a place where I don't have to deal with it, but... could you perhaps install an auxiliary pump with the intake in the weeping tile conduit rather than inside your house?

Sorry Danger, I don't know how this auxillary pump would work versus just pumping from the pit? How would this pump run? Self priming or not self priming?

 

[gloo]

Here is a youtube video of my pump and how it sounds at the end. I figured out the air sucking sound at the end of the video is coming from the back up water pressured sump pump. If I shut the valve off, the air sucking sounded that echoes is not heard. But I can't turn off that valve else I may get some kind of disaster if it starts to try to pump water out. Maybe what I can do to eliminate that air sound is run another pipe attached to the back up water pressure sump discharge pipe, further down?? Or maybe because it doesn't have a back flow valve and the sound echoes down the discharge pipe? If anyone can guess from the video...please comment.



The sound is actually quite more noticeable upstairs in the bedrooms so don't think that the video noise is that representative.

 

[DaveC426913]

So what is the real rate?? The one that is measured with filling sump pit with backed up water; or the the rate if I constantly pump out the pit and don't let the weeping tiles fill up??

Presumably, if you get a system going to pump more efficiently, then you will be dealing with the second scenario. So that is the one to consider.

 

[Travis_King]

That sound your hearing sounds like your pump sucking air at the end of the cycle when the float drops down to it's terminal level. Also, while shutting down the impeller will be slowing, so water will no longer travel up the pipes, it will just slosh around and mix with whatever water is flowing back down the line between the pump and the check. If there's a way to adjust the float so that it shuts the pump off with the water at a slightly higher level, that should be eliminated.

Are you saying that you are always running your backup pump? It's there as a backup in case you lose electrical power. You'll definitely get constant noise if you've got water running through half the pipes in the house all day. It takes a decent amount of water for that venturi system to work, so you'd hear it. If the backup is running, turn it off.

third, I'm pretty sure you've got check valves. Those red handled valves look to me like combination ball valve / swing checks. (see here: https://www.plumbingsupply.com/pvccheck.html). Also, I couldn't tell because you panned quickly, but where the pvc turns to the black (pvc?) there are two hose clamps. Are those just to join the pipes? Or is there a small section in there with a fitting? That could be a check as well.

I can't tell what's going on with the main sump, I see a valve on the far right line, is that the main discharge line? then there is a wye that goes back into the sump, what's going on there? why are there two lines coming out of your main sump?

To help answer some of your questions:

1. What is the power rating of your pump? 1/4, 1/3/ 1/2? Q Goest in this forum mentions that 1/4 is quieter than a 1/3 or 1/2 because less power and velocity means less vibration

The power required is determined by your specific flowrate and head requirement.
Look, there won't really be much of a difference in the motor sound between 1/4 or 1/2 horsepower. The velocity of the fluid may make some noise, sure, but I really can't see that you'll be able to change it enough that you'd notice. This system will make at least a little noise, it can't be helped. The bottom line is that you'll either have a large capacity pump which drains the system quickly, but then has numerous start/stops every day, or you'll have a smaller pump that runs a lot longer during each cycle, but has less start stop cycles. There's no way to significantly increase the amount of time between cycles while the pump is off without making the sump larger. You could look into changing the high level switch point on the float switch so that the sump fills up more between each cycle, but if and by how much you can do this will depend on your specific pump and switch.

3. Where should the check valve be optimally located?? Near the sump pump? Just before the vertical turns horizontal? What is the best type of check valve in terms of type or brand (heard something about spring based)

Like I said, I think you've got them, but they should be close to the pump; I'd say at least a foot after the discharge of the pump.

4. How can i coat the sump pump so that it doesn't rust?! Sometimes I think the sump breaks because it is cast iron and rusts out rather than motor issue.

Buy a plastic one...but in all honesty the cast iron ones are designed like that for a reason. They're sub pumps, they're meant to work in water, a little rust is ok.

I'd say a contender for the issue is a lack of sound deadening / insulation between the basement and the floor above. Also, you've got the pipes supported on joists, so those vibrations (no matter the flow rate you put through those pipes) are going to transfer through the home. In some places they may even reverberate in hollow spaces and become more noticeable. If you can somehow isolate the pipes from the joists (somehow support them from the foundation) I think you'd notice the noise less upstairs.

 

[RonL]

@ Ron -- thanks for your input Ron. Yes, I am not that sophisticated in terms of sump pump knowledge. I have been asking around and researching more using the input given to me in this thread and I sooo appreciate the help and the concern from everyone. Some questions for you since you seem to be quiet knowledgeable about the subject:

1. What is the power rating of your pump? 1/4, 1/3/ 1/2? Q Goest in this forum mentions that 1/4 is quieter than a 1/3 or 1/2 because less power and velocity means less vibration
2. Yes, in terms of air cavitation, i don't think it sucks all the water out so that the pump is sucking out air (is that what you mean about air cavitation??). But what i do notice is that their is this weird sound after the water is expelled and the sump pump shuts off. It's like a some kind of air release mixed with water coming out of the back up sump pump pvc pipe that is attached to the main expelling pipe. What is causing this do you think?
3. Where should the check valve be optimally located?? Near the sump pump? Just before the vertical turns horizontal? What is the best type of check valve in terms of type or brand (heard something about spring based)
4. How can i coat the sump pump so that it doesn't rust?! Sometimes I think the sump breaks because it is cast iron and rusts out rather than motor issue.
5. What brand do you think is best for sump??

Hi gloo,
After watching the video I feel that the ending cycle is a little like I suspected and having an effect on a check valve in some way. It looks to be a well designed system and two things pop into my mind, plumbing codes and system compatibility.
In the interest of maintaining house value and possible insurance coverage, as well as possible plumbing codes I think you might be wise in consulting a qualified plumber or local company that can say what is best for your system.

I'll wait and see what a few others say before going further with what I think.
Ron

 

[gloo]

That sound your hearing sounds like your pump sucking air at the end of the cycle when the float drops down to it's terminal level. Also, while shutting down the impeller will be slowing, so water will no longer travel up the pipes, it will just slosh around and mix with whatever water is flowing back down the line between the pump and the check. If there's a way to adjust the float so that it shuts the pump off with the water at a slightly higher level, that should be eliminated.

Are you saying that you are always running your backup pump? It's there as a backup in case you lose electrical power. You'll definitely get constant noise if you've got water running through half the pipes in the house all day. It takes a decent amount of water for that venturi system to work, so you'd hear it. If the backup is running, turn it off.

third, I'm pretty sure you've got check valves. Those red handled valves look to me like combination ball valve / swing checks. (see here: https://www.plumbingsupply.com/pvccheck.html). Also, I couldn't tell because you panned quickly, but where the pvc turns to the black (pvc?) there are two hose clamps. Are those just to join the pipes? Or is there a small section in there with a fitting? That could be a check as well.

I can't tell what's going on with the main sump, I see a valve on the far right line, is that the main discharge line? then there is a wye that goes back into the sump, what's going on there? why are there two lines coming out of your main sump?

To help answer some of your questions:The power required is determined by your specific flowrate and head requirement.
Look, there won't really be much of a difference in the motor sound between 1/4 or 1/2 horsepower. The velocity of the fluid may make some noise, sure, but I really can't see that you'll be able to change it enough that you'd notice. This system will make at least a little noise, it can't be helped. The bottom line is that you'll either have a large capacity pump which drains the system quickly, but then has numerous start/stops every day, or you'll have a smaller pump that runs a lot longer during each cycle, but has less start stop cycles. There's no way to significantly increase the amount of time between cycles while the pump is off without making the sump larger. You could look into changing the high level switch point on the float switch so that the sump fills up more between each cycle, but if and by how much you can do this will depend on your specific pump and switch.Like I said, I think you've got them, but they should be close to the pump; I'd say at least a foot after the discharge of the pump.Buy a plastic one...but in all honesty the cast iron ones are designed like that for a reason. They're sub pumps, they're meant to work in water, a little rust is ok.

Travis - no the back up pump has only ever been used once...but that is where the water sucking sound comes from at the end of the video. It doesn't have a check valve, it has only a shut off valve (the one you mentioned with the red handle), I don't think that has a check valve with it. When that valve is shut off...it prevents the sound from occurring. Do you think a quiet check valve would prevent that?

Two lines come from the main sump pit: the main sump pump and the back up battery powered electric sump pump. That one is ultra quiet...wish that one could run really slowly.

 

[Travis_King]

Ok, good. But first off, close the valve on the venturi system if it's not in use. That will prevent that from happening. If that noise came from the backup line, then likely as not you're getting some water hammer. when the main pump shuts off. That valve should be closed until you have to use the backup system.

You are right about the valve on the venture system as well, it looks like a standard ball valve. I don't know where you are living, but if this line doesn't have a check valve, you should check to see what's at the connection to the main. There should be a backflow preventer somewhere in this system to ensure that if the main suddenly loses pressure, you don't suck up sump water and contaminate the main. That's up to local code though, if the community main is protected against your house, then it may be ok to leave this as is. I'd ask a local plumber or your water authority on that one.

How does the battery backup run? Is it an automatic backup with it's own float switch (I would assume it's float would travel significantly higher than the main pumps float, so that it would detect when there's something wrong with the main pump) or is it a manual thing? Either way, leave that valve open, and I'm almost positive that that valve is a combination check and ball valve.

Is there a check valve on the main sump pump? Is it that piece with the two hose clamps that I mentioned?

 

[gloo]

Ok, good. But first off, close the valve on the venture system if it's not in use. That will prevent that from happening. If that noise came from the backup line, then likely as not you're getting some water hammer. when the main pump shuts off. That valve should be closed until you have to use the backup system.

You are right about the valve on the venture system as well, it looks like a standard ball valve. I don't know where you are living, but if this line doesn't have a check valve, you should check to see what's at the connection to the main. There should be a backflow preventer somewhere in this system to ensure that if the main suddenly loses pressure, you don't suck up sump water and contaminate the main. That's up to local code though, if the community main is protected against your house, then it may be ok to leave this as is. I'd ask a local plumber or your water authority on that one.

How does the battery backup run? Is it an automatic backup with it's own float switch (I would assume it's float would travel significantly higher than the main pumps float, so that it would detect when there's something wrong with the main pump) or is it a manual thing? Either way, leave that valve open, and I'm almost positive that that valve is a combination check and ball valve.

Is there a check valve on the main sump pump? Is it that piece with the two hose clamps that I mentioned?

I think there is a backflow valve on the main...I am going to have to ask a real plumber...I would not bet my life on it. The batttery back up runs like you said. I really don't think that is a combo shut off and check valve, I remember playing with something that looks exactly like that and it only gets blocked if you swing the red handle to the shut off position. All I know is that when i turn that shut off valve to shut, the air sucking sound is gone. I can't afford to leave it shut cause one day, if it does run, it will be a disaster and flood my basement.

Gonna have to get a plumber to fix a lot of things...just don't want to get rapped on the price. They are just rip off artist trying to charge like 100 bucks an hour for labour.

 

[Travis_King]

I think there is a backflow valve on the main...I am going to have to ask a real plumber...I would not bet my life on it.

Ok, it's not a big deal. I would imagine it's there, but maybe not.

The batttery back up runs like you said. I really don't think that is a combo shut off and check valve, I remember playing with something that looks exactly like that and it only gets blocked if you swing the red handle to the shut off position.

Ok, but correct me if I'm wrong here: Look at the two valves (the one on the venturi, and the one on the battery backup line). On the venturi line, youll see that there's the middle section where the handle is, then there's two identical connections on either side, right? On the battery backup, take a look and you'll see that there's a longer section at the bottom, and it looks asymmetrical. That is the combo style that I linked to in the other post. On the bottom there's just a hole, a void with a ball in it, and that's it, when the water is flowing up the ball is raised by the pressure and the water flows around it. When the water stops, the ball falls into the hole, clogs it, and the water can't get through. Can't get much more silent that these types. I'm pretty sure that's what it is, otherwise your main sump would simply flow right back down through that line. oo)

All I know is that when i turn that shut off valve to shut, the air sucking sound is gone. I can't afford to leave it shut cause one day, if it does run, it will be a disaster and flood my basement.

which valve are you talking about? The battery pump's valve, or the venturi's valve?
Like I said, either way, close the valve on the venturi line until you actually have to use it. It's not an automatic system, so you'll have to have a procedure for starting it up in the event of power loss anyway, right?

 

[Danger]

As before, I'm outta here. It's way over my head (just head, mind you, not pressure head or anything else related to this thread.)

 

[gloo]

Ok, it's not a big deal. I would imagine it's there, but maybe not.
Ok, but correct me if I'm wrong here: Look at the two valves (the one on the venturi, and the one on the battery backup line). On the venturi line, youll see that there's the middle section where the handle is, then there's two identical connections on either side, right? On the battery backup, take a look and you'll see that there's a longer section at the bottom, and it looks asymmetrical. That is the combo style that I linked to in the other post. On the bottom there's just a hole, a void with a ball in it, and that's it, when the water is flowing up the ball is raised by the pressure and the water flows around it. When the water stops, the ball falls into the hole, clogs it, and the water can't get through. Can't get much more silent that these types. I'm pretty sure that's what it is, otherwise your main sump would simply flow right back down through that line. oo)

which valve are you talking about? The battery pump's valve, or the venturi's valve?
Like I said, either way, close the valve on the venturi line until you actually have to use it. It's not an automatic system, so you'll have to have a procedure for starting it up in the event of power loss anyway, right?

Ok, it's not a big deal. I would imagine it's there, but maybe not.
Ok, but correct me if I'm wrong here: Look at the two valves (the one on the venturi, and the one on the battery backup line). On the venturi line, youll see that there's the middle section where the handle is, then there's two identical connections on either side, right? On the battery backup, take a look and you'll see that there's a longer section at the bottom, and it looks asymmetrical. That is the combo style that I linked to in the other post. On the bottom there's just a hole, a void with a ball in it, and that's it, when the water is flowing up the ball is raised by the pressure and the water flows around it. When the water stops, the ball falls into the hole, clogs it, and the water can't get through. Can't get much more silent that these types. I'm pretty sure that's what it is, otherwise your main sump would simply flow right back down through that line. oo)

which valve are you talking about? The battery pump's valve, or the venturi's valve?
Like I said, either way, close the valve on the venturi line until you actually have to use it. It's not an automatic system, so you'll have to have a procedure for starting it up in the event of power loss anyway, right?

I will just have to ask a plumber what is what as I plan to redesign this area. In terms of which valve i shut off to quiet the noise it was the Venturi side.

Thanks Travis.

 

[Travis_King]

Is the venturi system on an automated control? Or do you have to turn on a valve on your water main? If the system kicks in on its own, then yea you have to leave it open. However, if it is truly a system for when the power goes out and the battery backup is down, then there should be no reason to have it capable of running while you are home. If you want to run that pump, do you have to open any valves or anything?

 

[gloo]

Is the venturi system on an automated control? Or do you have to turn on a valve on your water main? If the system kicks in on its own, then yea you have to leave it open. However, if it is truly a system for when the power goes out and the battery backup is down, then there should be no reason to have it capable of running while you are home. If you want to run that pump, do you have to open any valves or anything?

Venturi has a float that is pushed up and allows water in. I am thinking why bother having back up battery one and just using the water pressured sump pump as back up.

Yes, i just need to turn the water valve on that connects to the venturi.

 

[gloo]

Here's a condensate pump that is 55 gph at 15' head -- but I'm not sure that that will be big enough. Sump pumps are sized the way they are sized for a reason -- that's what typical sumps need!

http://www.zoro.com/i/G3199585/?utm...INha1JT6WYfRZl6dxx7JQFW2YgVLQRnsfoaAl7a8P8HAQ

...because here's a randomly selected normal sump pump that flows 60x as much!
http://www.zoro.com/i/G3343225/?utm...irDHQibqfmnG9NYWhiu7s15-CXM3UewXcUaAo-z8P8HAQ

Another option might be to install a speed controller on your current pump and slow it down a bit. That will make it quieter. Something like this would probably work:
http://www.hydroponics.net/i/138604

Russ, I have been giving consideration to your idea of this speed controller. I liked that idea but kind of got lost in all the other conversations. Do you know if this would work for pond pump? I remembered I got a pond pump that pumps out 800 gph. It would be great if i can reduce it with either

1. smaller tube diameter (providing it doesn't break the pump)
2. using this speed controller. -- but the specs said something about how you can't use it for slow start or soft start motors. Do you know if that applies to the sump pumps or my pond pump??

 

[gloo]

Thank so much to all the contributors for my problem! Russ Watters, DaveC, Q Goest, Danger, Travis King, Ron L, rbelli 1, I really appreciate all the input.

Here is the flow rate from what I gather, I will put down all the specs and provide what I calculated to be the flow rate

diameter of sump pit: 18.5 inches (there are 2 , one is over flow pit of same size)
time to move up 12 inches : 13.4 minutes

It took basically 13.4 minutes to to move up 12 inches in both sump pits. At a diameter of approximately 18.5 inches, the volume in gallons for both pits is about 28 gallons. So per hour, I arrive at 125 GPH of water to fill both pits.

Can someone verify the calculations?

Does anyone have any suggestions now that the flow rate of 125 GPH is known?

thanks guys.

 

[RonL]

Thank so much to all the contributors for my problem! Russ Watters, DaveC, Q Goest, Danger, Travis King, Ron L, rbelli 1, I really appreciate all the input.

Here is the flow rate from what I gather, I will put down all the specs and provide what I calculated to be the flow rate

diameter of sump pit: 18.5 inches (there are 2 , one is over flow pit of same size)
time to move up 12 inches : 13.4 minutes

It took basically 13.4 minutes to to move up 12 inches in both sump pits. At a diameter of approximately 18.5 inches, the volume in gallons for both pits is about 28 gallons. So per hour, I arrive at 125 GPH of water to fill both pits.

Can someone verify the calculations?

Does anyone have any suggestions now that the flow rate of 125 GPH is known?

thanks guys.

Hi gloo,
I have to ask, what is the water table elevation ? how high in the basement would water stand if all systems failed to operate for an extended time ?
It sounds like this is a continual seepage, does the rate change a lot after rains ? or do you live on the downhill side of some type of water flow ?
I think you can make a speed control work, but be careful that you don't change the design operation to where you are paying almost as much to run the motor and only pump half the volume.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo,
I have to ask, what is the water table elevation ? how high in the basement would water stand if all systems failed to operate for an extended time ?
It sounds like this is a continual seepage, does the rate change a lot after rains ? or do you live on the downhill side of some type of water flow ?
I think you can make a speed control work, but be careful that you don't change the design operation to where you are paying almost as much to run the motor and only pump half the volume.

Thanks Ron...do you think that restriciting the flow with a smaller tube will work without damaging pond pump?

 

[RonL]

Thanks Ron...do you think that restriciting the flow with a smaller tube will work without damaging pond pump?

As best I recall you never restrict intake and you can choke the discharge but never completely (that has to do with heat buildup in the seal area).
You might look at diaphragm pumps these can be air operated (or electric) and they are positive displacement pumps that can be operated at very slow speeds, here a speed controller would give just a bout any flow you need.

 

[Travis_King]

Venturi has a float that is pushed up and allows water in. I am thinking why bother having back up battery one and just using the water pressured sump pump as back up.

Yes, i just need to turn the water valve on that connects to the venturi.

So, if you need to open that valve anyway, why not leave the discharge valve (the noisy one) closed when it's not in operation. You'll get rid of that noise, and since you have to fiddle with the system for it to run anyway, it's not putting you at any risk.

About the battery backup. Basically, the venturi system isn't really ideal. You use a lot of potable water to clear out that sump. Depending on where you live, it is likely preferable to have the battery backup rather than the venturi. Say it's raining, and your towns sewage system is inundated with water already. now, instead of just adding your sump water to the sewage system, you're adding probably 4+ times the amount of potable water as well. Additionally, as you have to open the valve from the main by hand, it's not a reliable backup system. Your sump should operate with the main sump pump as the primary operator, the battery back up as a secondary method of protection, and the venturi system if all else fails (power is out and battery has run out of juice).

I wouldn't change the pipe diameter, it's not worth it and the noise and vibration will only get louder as the fluid velocity increases (as it likely will if you switch to a smaller diameter pipe). you could install a ball valve after the check valve and close it slightly (leaving it 75%, 50%, 25% open). This will increase the head in the system and cause the pump to "run left" on its curve, giving you lower flow for much more minimal cost than all new piping (not to mention that at the flowrates here, the head differential between 2" and 1.5" pipe is very small, even between 2" and 1" it's not very big). But beware, if the valve is throttling the main sump pump's flow, and the pump fails, it may adversely affect the operation of the battery backup.

 

[DaveC426913]

Russ, I have been giving consideration to your idea of this speed controller. I liked that idea but kind of got lost in all the other conversations. Do you know if this would work for pond pump? I remembered I got a pond pump that pumps out 800 gph. It would be great if i can reduce it with either

1. smaller tube diameter (providing it doesn't break the pump)
2. using this speed controller. -- but the specs said something about how you can't use it for slow start or soft start motors. Do you know if that applies to the sump pumps or my pond pump??

I'll reiterate: reducing the flow either via restricting it or lowering the voltage/ampage are both hard on motors that aren't desing

 

[gloo]

So, if you need to open that valve anyway, why not leave the discharge valve (the noisy one) closed when it's not in operation. You'll get rid of that noise, and since you have to fiddle with the system for it to run anyway, it's not putting you at any risk.

About the battery backup. Basically, the venturi system isn't really ideal. You use a lot of potable water to clear out that sump. Depending on where you live, it is likely preferable to have the battery backup rather than the venturi. Say it's raining, and your towns sewage system is inundated with water already. now, instead of just adding your sump water to the sewage system, you're adding probably 4+ times the amount of potable water as well. Additionally, as you have to open the valve from the main by hand, it's not a reliable backup system. Your sump should operate with the main sump pump as the primary operator, the battery back up as a secondary method of protection, and the venturi system if all else fails (power is out and battery has run out of juice).

I wouldn't change the pipe diameter, it's not worth it and the noise and vibration will only get louder as the fluid velocity increases (as it likely will if you switch to a smaller diameter pipe). you could install a ball valve after the check valve and close it slightly (leaving it 75%, 50%, 25% open). This will increase the head in the system and cause the pump to "run left" on its curve, giving you lower flow for much more minimal cost than all new piping (not to mention that at the flowrates here, the head differential between 2" and 1.5" pipe is very small, even between 2" and 1" it's not very big). But beware, if the valve is throttling the main sump pump's flow, and the pump fails, it may adversely affect the operation of the battery backup.

Great, that's fantastic advice Travis. Thank you

 

[gloo]

I'll reiterate: reducing the flow either via restricting it or lowering the voltage/ampage are both hard on motors that aren't desing

Thanks Dave...yes I am a little bit challenged mentally to remember all the details of the forum. I looked back and didn't see the answer on my question of choking the discharge.

But you are telling me using the speed controller is not a good idea?? Why is it ok for things like ceiling fan motors versus the motors on the pond pumps?