Quietly Pump Water 11ft - Ideas for Sump Pump Solutions

[gloo]

There are many types. I was just showing an example of a large cartridge water pump for an aquarium.

The trick is how good the seals are. These pumps contain a large reservoir in which you are supposed to put filtering media. You don't need this, but it means the pump has a large mouth with a large O-ring seal, as well as inlets and outlets. If these will all work without leaking air, the pump can be in the air. But if not, the pump will need to be submerged, so it doesn't lose prime by leakage.

You'll have to check out the pumps to ensure the one you choose will keep a seal.

Problem with pond pumps is that they tend to need to be submerged and you won't have that luxury in your sump, since it will be drained regularly.Flexibility is proportional to cost. But the $30 timers I've used have as many as 20 programs, meaning 20 on/off cycles per day. That means it could only cycle less than once per hour. But you can set the length. So,
1] on at 12:01 off at 12:21 (7 days/week)
2] on at 1:31 off at 1:51 (7 days/week)
...
20] on at 11:01, off at 11:20 (7 days/week)
Or whatever.No need. With the above flexibility, you could dial the on time back by a minute at a time until your gallons per day throughput matches your needs.

Besides, the pumps have built-in flow restrictors. Better to alter the water flow than the motor revs.

But - this will still mean you're fiddling with it occasionally, because you'll never get it quite right. Especially since your inflow to the basin will change constantly with the weather.Uh, you mean on the sump pump itself? to quiet the noise? Not sure how that would work. The outlet of a sump pump is already a hose, and you can't isolate the inlet since it is integral to the pump.

You wouldn't need to do that on a water pump, as they run pretty much silently.These pumps tend to use 1/2" rubber tube. I can't imagine trying to pump water up a 1 1/2" hose. What is the weight of a column of water 12 feet tall and 1.5" in diameter? About 40lbs? But I may be misunderstanding the purpose here.

Dave, when you say built in flow restrictors, does that mean it I could make it less flow? Would I need to put on a smaller diameter hose?

Dave, I have a high water table..the water coming in is not a function of rain as natural high water table. So it could always run. Bottom line is, if i can make the sump pump just run once every 4 hours? or even better ...every ten hours, then this is the best solution. Do you think the flow restrictor will allow me flexibility or granularity of control, that I can tinker it to make the sump run just once every 8 hours...or whatever??

 

[Q_Goest]

Hi gloo. A 1/4 hp motor sump pump produces between 700 and 1000 GPH so velocity is very low, around 2 ft/s. I'm surprised the piping is making any noise, perhaps it's not related to velocity and only to some interaction with the pump. A 3/4" rubber hose is a bit small though. One thing it would do is restrict flow so that a much lower flow rate was passing out through the pipe. You don't need something that small though. I'd suggest going to a swimming pool or hardware store to find proper hose that's large enough for this.

If a lower flow rate cuts back on the noise, you might consider putting a valve in the discharge and simply close it part way to reduce flow. Sump pumps are 'dynamic' pumps with an impeller so that increasing pressure on the discharge results in reduced flow rate. You can get that affect by pinching down on a valve that's installed on the discharge. Pinch down just enough and you might get rid of the pipe noise without having to put a different pump in.

 

[russ_watters]

Hi gloo. A 1/4 hp motor sump pump produces between 700 and 1000 GPM

I think you mean gph.

 

[Q_Goest]

I think you mean gph.

Thanks. Yes, GPH. I'll edit the original post.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, when you say built in flow restrictors, does that mean it I could make it less flow? Would I need to put on a smaller diameter hose?

More accurately, they redirect the flow away from the outflow (so it simply circles). This reduces the outflow, without putting a strain on the motor.

But why would you want to restrict the flow? You're restricting the output by way of the timer.

Dave, I have a high water table..the water coming in is not a function of rain as natural high water table. So it could always run. Bottom line is, if i can make the sump pump just run once every 4 hours? or even better ...every ten hours, then this is the best solution. Do you think the flow restrictor will allow me flexibility or granularity of control, that I can tinker it to make the sump run just once every 8 hours...or whatever??

Yeah, in theory. I'm still not sure you're going to find a pump that will have any kind of flow rate for a 12 foot head.

That's question #2 for the store guy.

So:
1] will this pump work without having to be submerged?
2] what is the flow rate for a 12 foot head?

But five'll getcha ten, when you explain what you're trying to do, they'll tell you that "it sounds like what you need is a sump pump". ;)

And you're going to be paying a pretty penny ($100+).

 

[DaveC426913]

BTW, as many have asked, we need to know flow rate.

What rate does your sump fill at? How many gallons per hour?

 

[gloo]

I think i do have an aquarium pump already that can go 12 feet... I just do not want it to pump out the sump pit and have to be primed...so that's why i never got it installed. In asking here, I was hoping people could help me find some pumping system (air ...whatever), that would not have to be submerged and not have to be primed.

So Dave, is it complicated to program these timers? Can it be flexible ...for instance...run every ten min for 5 min? You ask why i would want to restrict flow... i was hoping that I could set a restricition with enough granularity so that it is just less than the rate at which the water flows in. Thus allowing the sump to fire just once every 4 to 6 hours. I really really need to get that done. It's just too loud to be normal...

 

[gloo]

BTW, as many have asked, we need to know flow rate.

What rate does your sump fill at? How many gallons per hour?

Yes I will find out tommorow and let everyone know.

Thanks to Russ Watter, DaveC, Q Goest, and Danger for helping :)

 

[DaveC426913]

So Dave, is it complicated to program these timers?

Something like this is what I'm talking about:

They're frustrating but not complicated. With only a few buttons, you're constantly changing modes to program it. It takes a while, but once you're done, you're all good.

Can it be flexible ...for instance...run every ten min for 5 min? You ask why i would want to restrict flow... i was hoping that I could set a restricition with enough granularity so that it is just less than the rate at which the water flows in. Thus allowing the sump to fire just once every 4 to 6 hours. I really really need to get that done. It's just too loud to be normal...

They operate on a 24 hour program. And 20 programs. That means, in 24 hours, you can cycle it ON/OFF 20 times. That is NOT enough to have it come on every 5 minutes, but it is enough to have it come on every 72 minutes (20 times over 24 hours).

For each of those 'ON' times, you can individually set it to turn OFF after any number of minutes.

Your 5 minutes ON / 5 minutes OFF means it's on 50% of the time. So that would translate to 36 minutes ON / 36 minutes OFF, 24/7.

It also means you have very fine control over it over 24 hours. You could set it for 35 minutes ON, 37 minutes OFF, or 25 minutes ON, 47 minutes OFF etc.

 

[Danger]

Although I'll continue checking into keep more or less up to date, I'm removing myself from this discussion because Dave, Russ and the Q-ball are well acquainted with this subject and I am not. At this point of the thread, my only practical solution would be for you to move to the Sahara.

 

[gloo]

Something like this is what I'm talking about:

They're frustrating but not complicated. With only a few buttons, you're constantly changing modes to program it. It takes a while, but once you're done, you're all good.
They operate on a 24 hour program. And 20 programs. That means, in 24 hours, you can cycle it ON/OFF 20 times. That is NOT enough to have it come on every 5 minutes, but it is enough to have it come on every 72 minutes (20 times over 24 hours).

For each of those 'ON' times, you can individually set it to turn OFF after any number of minutes.

Your 5 minutes ON / 5 minutes OFF means it's on 50% of the time. So that would translate to 36 minutes ON / 36 minutes OFF, 24/7.

It also means you have very fine control over it over 24 hours. You could set it for 35 minutes ON, 37 minutes OFF, or 25 minutes ON, 47 minutes OFF etc.

Thank you Dave, so this one can come on every 72 minutes. But I only need to have it come on for me at 9pm to 7am so that is a 10 hour window. That means I can have it turn on every 30 minutes. Is it possible to say turn it on every 30 min for x minutes ( i.e. 2 min or 7 min etc..) That way, once i know the flow rate, i can just run the silent pump for as long as I need it?

Given that, then I want to find a pump that won't be too powerful because if it sucks too fast, then it can only come on for maybe 3 min before it has to shut down or have to be primed again. That was why i was hoping that the aquaria pumps can be chocked? like maybe using a smaller tub diameter?? Or what that break the pump?

 

[Q_Goest]

Hi gloo. How old is the pump you have? It doesn't make sense to me that it should cause a problem. Perhaps it has a damaged impeller or bearing and is vibrating.

PS: Note that the water velocity through the pipe is very low so it shouldn't be causing a vibration issue.

 

[gloo]

i just replaced it so it isn't that old. To me, it runs the same as the day i put it in. The problem is, it's just below my bedroom so you can hear it. I can sleep through most things, but my wife is more sensitive to it. Still she sleeps fine and so does my daughter. I just need to solve the issue. It isn't that loud inthe basement, but you notice it more for some reason upstairs in the bedroom.

 

[russ_watters]

Do you think that the speed controller would work for the aquarium pumps that DaveC mentioned? That way, I may not need a timer?

I am absolutely certain an aquarium air pump will not work for pumping water from your sump.

I think your best bet (besides the speed controller) will be to cut out a section of the output pipe and replace it with rubber. This will prevent the vibration of the pump from being transmitted through the pipe. Commercial pumps are installed that way.

 

[Travis_King]

I wouldn't recommend using anything other than a sump pump for this application. That's what sump pumps are for...
The pump itself shouldn't be very loud. As you are indicating that you think it's the PVC, what exactly is "loud" about the pipe? Is it vibrating against something? You mentioned that you put a sponge on it, does that mean you shoved a sponge between the pipe and some surface it's contacting?

I also wouldn't recommend that timer business. It seems like a good idea, but sumps usually run on level sensors or float switches, not timers. This is to protect from overflows and from running dry. Perhaps see how the pump is currently controlled and contact the manufacturer to see if there's a way to increase or decrease the allowable water levels in the pump controls.

 

[gloo]

Hi gloo. How old is the pump you have? It doesn't make sense to me that it should cause a problem. Perhaps it has a damaged impeller or bearing and is vibrating.

PS: Note that the water velocity through the pipe is very low so it shouldn't be causing a vibration issue.

So Goest, you say the smaller the horse power rating, the quieter should be the pump theoritically? As mentioned, I have a 1/4 hp pump...is there a smaller power one that will do the job of pumping things up 13 feet?

 

[gloo]

I wouldn't recommend using anything other than a sump pump for this application. That's what sump pumps are for...
The pump itself shouldn't be very loud. As you are indicating that you think it's the PVC, what exactly is "loud" about the pipe? Is it vibrating against something? You mentioned that you put a sponge on it, does that mean you shoved a sponge between the pipe and some surface it's contacting?

I also wouldn't recommend that timer business. It seems like a good idea, but sumps usually run on level sensors or float switches, not timers. This is to protect from overflows and from running dry. Perhaps see how the pump is currently controlled and contact the manufacturer to see if there's a way to increase or decrease the allowable water levels in the pump controls.

Yes, Travis, I am starting to thing just using a quiet sump pump and insulating the vibration...maybe using insulation foam against the floor joist and getting a quieter check valve, may be the answer.

 

[gloo]

I am absolutely certain an aquarium air pump will not work for pumping water from your sump.

I think your best bet (besides the speed controller) will be to cut out a section of the output pipe and replace it with rubber. This will prevent the vibration of the pump from being transmitted through the pipe. Commercial pumps are installed that way.

Thanks Russ, I have asked around but it doesn't seem easy to replace the pvc with rubber...one guy at Home Depot kind of recommended against the idea.

 

[DaveC426913]

I am absolutely certain an aquarium air pump will not work for pumping water from your sump.

As am I. ;) However, we are not talking about air pumps anymore. We are talking about water pumps.

They are self-contained cartridge filters that have a built-in pump. This is not really what they were made for, and I am still concerned about the lift/head. I am concerned that gloo will go out and purchase a $100 pump only to discover that it will not lift water to a 12 foot height.

I also wouldn't recommend that timer business. It seems like a good idea, but sumps usually run on level sensors or float switches, not timers.

He is talking about supplementing the sump with a regular pump. It is this regular pump that will run on a timer.

The entire purpose here is to reduce the amount of time the sump pump comes on from every 10 minutes down to every few hours or more. This could be done with a supplementary pump and careful tuning.

I am not recommending this solution, as I agree a proper sump pump is the way to go, but I am addressing the question that the OP has asked.

 

[gloo]

As am I. ;) However, we are not talking about air pumps anymore. We are talking about water pumps.

They are self-contained cartridge filters that have a built-in pump. This is not really what they were made for, and I am still concerned about the lift/head. I am concerned that gloo will go out and purchase a $100 pump only to discover that it will not lift water to a 12 foot height.

He is talking about supplementing the sump with a regular pump. It is this regular pump that will run on a timer.

The entire purpose here is to reduce the amount of time the sump pump comes on from every 10 minutes down to every few hours or more. This could be done with a supplementary pump and careful tuning.

I am not recommending this solution, as I agree a proper sump pump is the way to go, but I am addressing the question that the OP has asked.

So what was that Aquarium pump picture you put up earlier? Are you saying this one would lift 12 feet? Does this one require submerging it in water? I would definitely try this if the pump was really quiet.

 

[Danger]

He is talking about supplementing the sump with a regular pump. It is this regular pump that will run on a timer.

I know that I said that I'm out of the thread, but something strikes me about those sentences. Couldn't the sump pump (without a supplemental one) be set on the timer, but with float-switch overrides to satisfy Travis' concerns about running dry or flooding?
I'm thinking of something like a "limit switch" setup, wherein mains power has a parallel path around the timer to the float switches.

 

[russ_watters]

As am I. ;) However, we are not talking about air pumps anymore. We are talking about water pumps.

They are self-contained cartridge filters that have a built-in pump. This is not really what they were made for, and I am still concerned about the lift/head. I am concerned that gloo will go out and purchase a $100 pump only to discover that it will not lift water to a 12 foot height.

Oops, well, fortunately my answer happens to be the same.

Amazon lists the entire product line of a particular pump and the max head of any of them is 10'. So no, they won't work.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0027J67GS/?tag=pfamazon01-20

The entire purpose here is to reduce the amount of time the sump pump comes on from every 10 minutes down to every few hours or more. This could be done with a supplementary pump and careful tuning.

I don't see what value a timer would add, but whatever the case, if he gets a smaller pump it will have to run more often, not less often.

 

[gloo]

I know that I said that I'm out of the thread, but something strikes me about those sentences. Couldn't the sump pump (without a supplemental one) be set on the timer, but with float-switch overrides to satisfy Travis' concerns about running dry or flooding?
I'm thinking of something like a "limit switch" setup, wherein mains power has a parallel path around the timer to the float switches.

@ Danger... I am not sure what you are saying. I was hoping to use air pump cause it was quiet (but doesn't sound technically possible given air pump power) and not use regular sump pump. It's all about the noise because I didn't want sump running at night cause it was loud.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't see what value a timer would add, but whatever the case, if he gets a smaller pump it will have to run more often, not less often.

The entire idea here is to make the (noisy) sump pump turn on less often.

A supplementary pump will result in the sump filling much slower. That means the noisy sump pump will (in theory) kick in only every few hours (or even days), instead of every few minutes.

The reason for the timer is because the supplementary water pump has no feedback like the sump pump does so, if left to its own devices, it will simply drain the sump, suck air and lose prime. You set it to a direction wherein the sump is mostly drained each time, but over days, ultimately it fills up, then the sump pump kicks in and drains it rapidly.

 

[gloo]

The entire idea here is to make the (noisy) sump pump turn on less often.

A supplementary pump will result in the sump filling much slower. That means the noisy sump pump will (in theory) kick in only every few hours (or even days), instead of every few minutes.

The reason for the timer is because the supplementary water pump has no feedback like the sump pump does so, if left to its own devices, it will simply drain the sump, suck air and lose prime. You set it to a direction wherein the sump is mostly drained each time, but over days, ultimately it fills up, then the sump pump kicks in and drains it rapidly.

So Dave...not sure you saw my questions earlier but here they were:

1. Does that one require the entire thing to be dunked into the water? Or just one end of a hose or tube?

2. Can that lift 11 to 12 feet?

 

[Danger]

I was hoping to use air pump cause it was quiet

I understand what you want to accomplish, and I sympathize with you, but the reason that an air pump is called an air pump is because it's designed to pump air, not water. The two types don't even work the same way. For one thing, no air pump that I'm familiar with is waterproof. In the case of aquarium units, they're usually mounted outside of the tank on a dry surface.
The other thing that I have to ask is how long you have been in this environment. When I first moved to this town, the sound of the trains (especially if they blew their horns) disturbed my sleep. Within a few weeks I didn't notice while asleep. Now, 30+ years along the road, I can't hear them even if I try during daytime. By the same token, my oxygen unit snores like a hippogryph and is sitting 3 metres away from me. Same result as with the trains, except that I can hear the thing when I'm awake and paying attention to it. Normally, even awake, I don't notice it.
Is the disturbance possibly something that you can just wait out until becoming acclimated to it?

 

[DaveC426913]

Thus.

Note the noise intervals. That's the goal here.

In theory, if you adjust the timer on the supplementary pump finely enough, you could stretch out that interval indefinitely - days or weeks - in theory.

(Again, I am not really advocating for this solution, just helping out the OP.)

 

[DaveC426913]

Say, gloo, the point of a float-triggered sump pump is that it only kicks in once the float is triggered. If you raise the float a foot or two, it will wait a lot longer until the sump is full.

Can you?

 

[DaveC426913]

So Dave...not sure you saw my questions earlier but here they were:

1. Does that one require the entire thing to be dunked into the water? Or just one end of a hose or tube?

There are types that can run without being submerged. The image is nothing more than an example of a cartridge-type pump.

2. Can that lift 11 to 12 feet?

Almost certainly not.

I must stress to you that you do not have a solution yet, only an option that could be explored. You will have to do the research to make sure you find a pump that needs your needs (if there is one that fits those criteria) The combination of 12 foot lift, and non-submersible may very well be a null set.

You will have to ask at pond stores. (Water pumps for aquaria don't normally have to deal with fountains or waterfalls, so are not normally concerned about lift.)

Do not buy until you are sure the pump you have will meet your needs.

 

[gloo]

I am fine with the noise... my wife less so. But when her parents come to sleep over, they are not thrilled to say the least. It really isn't a big deal for me...i just have to switch out the pumps every 3 years. I have a water pressured sump pump that uses the venturi effect and city water pressure if the power goes out for an extended period of time (like the ice storm that put our city of power for 3 days).