Relativistic quantum mechanics and causality

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The discussion centers on the claim that the Dirac and Klein-Gordon equations violate causality despite being relativistic invariants. Participants debate whether this assertion holds true, with some arguing that causality is preserved in quantum field theory due to the vanishing commutator of field operators at spacelike separations. There is a call for clearer examples and explanations of how quantum fields relate to causality, as current literature, such as Peskin and Schroeder, lacks sufficient rigor on this fundamental issue. The conversation highlights the complexity of causality in quantum field theory and the ongoing uncertainty surrounding it. Ultimately, the participants express a desire for more concrete connections between theoretical constructs and physical observations.
  • #31
genneth said:
I think that's a great shame, and actually a good direction to research. After all, it doesn't feel like there's any a priori reason for a relativistic quantum particle to not make sense. There are lines of attack that suggest a consistent theory can be found.

Actually, there is a promising line of research to build a quantum relativistic theory of particles that interact via instantaneous potentials. It is called the "dressed particle" theory, which I mentioned a few times already. It's predictive power is just as good or even better than in the traditional renormalized QFT. The "dressed particle" approach does not use Dirac or Klein-Gordon equations.

Eugene.
 
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  • #32
meopemuk said:
When a photon leaves its mark on the photographic plate, we measure an observable "photon's position". The probability for such a measurement is determined by the square of photon's wave function in the position space. I'm afraid that photon's quantum field A_{\mu}(x) has nothing to do with this probability.

I have thought about this some time and I have to admit that it was a bit oversimplified from the point of view of QFT. I understand that it's the actual wave functional that determines the probability for a transition to a localized gauge field (absorption by silver atom). But on the other hand, classically, there can be no doubt that the energy density of the electromagnetic wave determines the number of silver ions to be reduced. That's what all photography is about.

Shouldn't the fact that the energy density of the electromagnetic wave determines the density of silver grains in the plate, correspond to QFT's wave functional view ?
 
  • #33
OOO said:
I have thought about this some time and I have to admit that it was a bit oversimplified from the point of view of QFT. I understand that it's the actual wave functional that determines the probability for a transition to a localized gauge field (absorption by silver atom). But on the other hand, classically, there can be no doubt that the energy density of the electromagnetic wave determines the number of silver ions to be reduced. That's what all photography is about.

Shouldn't the fact that the energy density of the electromagnetic wave determines the density of silver grains in the plate, correspond to QFT's wave functional view ?

The traditional way of handling properties of light seems totally inconsistent to me.

Everything is simple when we are dealing with one photon. We know that it is described by a complex-valued wave function, whose square exactly describes the probability of the photon hitting any given point on the photographic plate. For high intensity sources emitting many photons at once, individual particles do not interact with each other. So, each photon is described by the same wave function. And this is what we see in experiment: the interference picture does not depend on whether the photons are released one-by-one or in a high-intensity laser beam. So, it seems logical that in the high-intensity case the interference picture should be described by the same one-particle wave function that was used for a single photon.

However, this is not the way the modern description works. We are taught that the light wave is a classical field (actually, two fields \mathbf{E}(\mathbf{r},t) and \mathbf{B}(\mathbf{r},t)), and that the interference picture is defined by the "field energy". Moreover, we are told that in the quantum case the fields must be "quantized", i.e., changed to operators. So, basically, we have two conflicting explanations of the same effect (interference). One is usual quantum addition of complex amplitudes. Another is energy of the (quantum?) field. A consistent theory cannot have two descriptions of the same thing. Which one is the correct description? I prefer the one-particle quantum picture. I don't think that electromagnetic field (either classical or quantum) is the correct way to think about photons and their wave properties.

Eugene.
 
  • #34
meopemuk said:
The traditional way of handling properties of light seems totally inconsistent to me.

Everything is simple when we are dealing with one photon. We know that it is described by a complex-valued wave function, whose square exactly describes the probability of the photon hitting any given point on the photographic plate. For high intensity sources emitting many photons at once, individual particles do not interact with each other. So, each photon is described by the same wave function. And this is what we see in experiment: the interference picture does not depend on whether the photons are released one-by-one or in a high-intensity laser beam. So, it seems logical that in the high-intensity case the interference picture should be described by the same one-particle wave function that was used for a single photon.

However, this is not the way the modern description works. We are taught that the light wave is a classical field (actually, two fields \mathbf{E}(\mathbf{r},t) and \mathbf{B}(\mathbf{r},t)), and that the interference picture is defined by the "field energy". Moreover, we are told that in the quantum case the fields must be "quantized", i.e., changed to operators. So, basically, we have two conflicting explanations of the same effect (interference). One is usual quantum addition of complex amplitudes. Another is energy of the (quantum?) field. A consistent theory cannot have two descriptions of the same thing. Which one is the correct description? I prefer the one-particle quantum picture. I don't think that electromagnetic field (either classical or quantum) is the correct way to think about photons and their wave properties.

Eugene.

But there are many classical phenomenon which would be difficult to account for with just a wavefunction for a photon. In particular, static fields generated by, say, a single electron. If you use an action at a distance model, then that's clearly violated by experimental evidence for the delay in feeling the motion of an electron by another electron. These are the considerations that led to field models classically. Moreover, these are extremely observed phenomenon. A quantum theory that violates them even slightly would be falsified. Personally, I'm satisfied by the need to quantise the classical fields, and for them to yield particles of spin 1 which interact with electrons in the correct way, as to account for particle accelerator experiments. However, I'm not yet convinced about the precise formalism used by QFT (and its application in QED and QCD). Like you, I'm dubious about the fact that a lack of sensible time evolution can be given. Furthermore, I'm disturbed by the background dependence. I guess I'm just a bit more conservative in my views? :wink:
 
  • #35
genneth said:
But there are many classical phenomenon which would be difficult to account for with just a wavefunction for a photon. In particular, static fields generated by, say, a single electron. If you use an action at a distance model, then that's clearly violated by experimental evidence for the delay in feeling the motion of an electron by another electron. These are the considerations that led to field models classically. Moreover, these are extremely observed phenomenon. A quantum theory that violates them even slightly would be falsified.

Yes, in classical electrodynamics the description of light and (retarded) electromagnetic interactions between charges are provided by the same set of fields \mathbf{E}, \mathbf{B}. In the "dressed particle" approach these two phenomena are described differently. Light is a flux of (quantum) particles - photons. Electric and magnetic interactions between charges are described by instantaneous distance- and velocity-dependent potentials. I am not sure if such an action-at-a-distance has been clearly rejected in experiments. There are some recent experiments (Chiao, Nimtz, etc.) which can be interpreted as evidence of faster-than-light interactions between charges. I don't want to claim that interpretation of these measurements is unambiguos. In my opinion, this issue is not closed yet.

Eugene.
 
  • #36
"I don't find anything "trivial" or "clear" in these statements."

Weinberg in his book links the original paper by Bohr and Rosenfeld
"translation by R Cohen and J Stachel" phys review. 78, 794 (1950).

I like reading papers from that time as the connection with experiment was much closer and transparent, so I'd recommend checking it out.

Absent a blackboard its hard to flush out what I mean mathematically in this setting, and its getting to the point where I can no longer english speak to explain what I mean, (which is fine).
 
  • #37
Haelfix said:
Weinberg in his book links the original paper by Bohr and Rosenfeld
"translation by R Cohen and J Stachel" phys review. 78, 794 (1950).

Haelfix,
Thank you for the reference. I'll check it out.

Eugene
 
  • #38
meopemuk said:
When a photon leaves its mark on the photographic plate, we measure an observable "photon's position". The probability for such a measurement is determined by the square of photon's wave function in the position space. I'm afraid that photon's quantum field A_{\mu}(x) has nothing to do with this probability.


..........

Then, what does?
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson
 
  • #39
reilly said:
meopemuk said:
When a photon leaves its mark on the photographic plate, we measure an observable "photon's position". The probability for such a measurement is determined by the square of photon's wave function in the position space. I'm afraid that photon's quantum field A_{\mu}(x) has nothing to do with this probability.
..........

Then, what does?
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson

Below I will briefly describe how I understand quantum field theory and its relationship to QM. I understand that my views do not look like the mainstream, but I believe they are in full accord with the way QFT presented in S. Weinberg, "The quantum theory of fields", vol. 1. So, here it goes...


Why quantum mechanics is no good enough? In quantum mechanics we normally deal with systems having fixed number of particles (N). The Hilbert space is built as a tensor product of N 1-particle Hilbert spaces where operators of observables, state vectors, dynamics, etc are defined. In relativistic physics energy can be converted to mass due to Einstein's E=mc^2, so we must also take into account the possibility of changing the number of particles (emission, absorption, annihilation, etc.). This can be achieved by switching from fixed-number-of-particles Hilbert spaces to the Fock space, which is simply a direct sum of N-particle Hilbert spaces, where N varies from 0 to infinity. Fundamentally, QFT is nothing else but quantum mechanics in the Fock space.

Operators of observables and wave functions in the Fock space One can define operators of particle observables in the Fock space in exactly the same way as in QM. For example, in each N-particle sector we have well-defined operators (of position, momentum, spin, etc.) for each of the N particles described there. These operators have usual common bases of eigenvectors, and an arbitrary N-particle state vector can be projected on these bases to obtain N-particle wave functions in different representations. The new feature is that one also has state vectors with non-zero projections on sectors with different N. Wave functions of states with such undefined particle numbers are just sets of N-particle wave functions, each with its own coefficient. The square of the coefficient is the probability to find N particles in this general state.

Unitary representation of the Poincare group. The most general way to construct a relativistic quantum theory is by defining an unitary representation of the Poincare group in the Hilbert space (in our case this is the Fock space) of the system. Basically, it is sufficient to construct interaction operators V and \mathbf{W} in the generators of time translations (the Hamiltonian) and boost

H = H_0 + V
\mathbf{K} = \mathbf{K}_0 + \mathbf{W}

so that the Poincare commutation relations between all 10 generators (including the total momentum \mathbf{P}_0 and the total angular momentum \mathbf{J}_0) remain preserved. This is a very non-trivial problem, and currently there is only one known solution which satisfies all requirements, such as the cluster separability, the possibility to describe particle-number-changing interactions, etc. [Please note that the fact that it is the only known solution does not imply that it is the only possible solution.] This is where quantum fields come into play:

1. Define particle creation and annihilation operators in the Fock space.
2. For each particle type build a certain linear combination (the free quantum field) \psi(\mathbf{r},t) of the creation and annihilation operators with two major properties
2a. (anti)commutativity at space-like separations
2b. manifestly covariant transformation laws with respect to the non-interacting representation of the Poincare group in the Fock space
3. Then operator V(t) can be constructed as an integral on \mathbf{r} of field products (or polynomials)

V(t) = \int d^3r \psi(\mathbf{r},t) \phi(\mathbf{r},t) A(\mathbf{r},t) \ldots

(for brevity I omit possible indices of operators \psi, \phi, A and summations over these indices). The "boost interaction" \mathbf{W}(t) is given by a similar formula.

It is important to note that we don't need to give any physical interpretation to quantum fields \psi, \phi, A, \ldots. They are just abstract mathematical quantities, whose role is to facilitate the construction of interaction operators V and \mathbf{W}. Once this construction is completed, we have a full interacting quantum theory in the Hilbert space with particle operators, wave functions, the time evolution operator

U(t) = \exp(\frac{i}{\hbar} Ht) [/itex]......(1)<br /> <br /> etc, i.e., everything one would need to solve any kind of physical problem.<br /> <br /> <b>Renormalization and dressing</b> Unfortunately, this nice theory has a serious problem. It appears that for all realistic interaction operators V the scattering (S-) matrix cannot be calculated, because its matrix elements come out infinite. To solve this problem one can add (as Tomonaga, Schwinger, and Feynman did) infinite renormalization counterterms to the Hamiltonian H (and to the boost operator \mathbf{K} as well). Then one can get a very accurate S-matrix, but the Hamiltonian H becomes infinite and useless for calculating the time evolution (1) and for finding bound states via diagonalization. This problem can be solved by applying an &quot;unitary dressing transformation&quot; to the Hamiltonian and all other generators of the Poincare group. Then the theory assumes the form very similar to ordinary quantum mechanics: We have a full description for the system of particles interacting with each other via instantaneous potentials, which, in addition, can change the number of particles in the system. The Poincare commutators, cluster separability and other important physical requirements are exactly satisfied. Quantum fields are not needed for the physical interpretation of this theory..<br /> <br /> Eugene.
 
  • #40
meopemuk said:
Actually, there is a promising line of research to build a quantum relativistic theory of particles that interact via instantaneous potentials. It is called the "dressed particle" theory, which I mentioned a few times already. It's predictive power is just as good or even better than in the traditional renormalized QFT. The "dressed particle" approach does not use Dirac or Klein-Gordon equations.

Eugene.

Whilst that may be for a QFT (or equivalents there of), I was thinking more elementarily, of a theory for just a simple free relativistic particle, without any complications of pair creation and the such.
 
  • #41
I guess what meopemuk wants is a unambiguous Alice-Bob thought experiment, hopefully in which we can prove if [A,B]=0 no superluminal signal can be sent, and if [A, B]!=0, a superluminal can be sent.
And we can indeed accomplish this "proof" in QM, for example, in this link:http://everything2.com/title/Quantum+entanglement+and+faster+than+light+communication
under the "general case" the author proved Cooper can never know whether Alice has done the measurement or not, with a premise that Alice and Cooper has a simultaneous set of eigenbasis (namely [A,B]=0). Vice versa, if we [A,B]!=0, we can construct such a state so that Cooper can know whether Alice has done the measurement .
 
  • #42
meopemuk said:
When a photon leaves its mark on the photographic plate, we measure an observable "photon's position". The probability for such a measurement is determined by the square of photon's wave function in the position space. I'm afraid that photon's quantum field A_{\mu}(x) has nothing to do with this probability.


..........

Then, what does?
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson

Meopemuk -- what do you mean by a photon wave function? When you say it is not related to A_{\mu}(x) do you refer to a representation based on EM field strength, such as the Riemann-Silberstein representation (as described in [1-3])? As far as I can see, this representation does not admit a unitary representation of the Poincare group and therefore can not be interpreted as a probability density, so it doesn't get much traction in the community. Nevertheless I like the idea.

[1-3]
Bialynicki-Birula, I. Exponential Localization of Photons, Phys. Rev. Lett., 1998, 80, 5247-
Smith, B. J. & Raymer, M. G. Two-photon wave mechanics, Phys. Rev. A, 2006, 74, 062104
Hawton, M. Photon wave functions in a localized coordinate space basis, Phys. Rev. A, 1999, 59, 3223-
 
  • #43
meopemuk said:
The traditional way of handling properties of light seems totally inconsistent to me.

Everything is simple when we are dealing with one photon. We know that it is described by a complex-valued wave function, whose square exactly describes the probability of the photon hitting any given point on the photographic plate.

Who is the ''we'' that knows that?

There is no such wave function. The photon (i.e., the massless spin 1 representation of the Poincare group) does not admit a canonical position representation in which |psi(x)|^2 could be interpreted as a probability density. Attempted constructions of such a position representation depend on additional ingredients that change under gauge transforms. But a position probability would have to be gauge independent.
 
  • #44
A. Neumaier said:
Who is the ''we'' that knows that?

There is no such wave function. The photon (i.e., the massless spin 1 representation of the Poincare group) does not admit a canonical position representation in which |psi(x)|^2 could be interpreted as a probability density. Attempted constructions of such a position representation depend on additional ingredients that change under gauge transforms. But a position probability would have to be gauge independent.

Thank you for reminding me about that. You are right, it is not possible to define a position operator with commuting components (X,Y,Z) in the 1-photon Hilbert space. So, strictly speaking, there are no position-space wave functions associated with photons.

However, I still believe that ordinary 1-particle quantum mechanics should be applicable to photon states. In this quantum description there should exist some approximate (or non-commutative) representation of the photon's position. It must be so, because experimentally we can measure photon's position, e.g., as dark spots of the photographic plate. This quantum theory should also provide an explanation for the Young's double-slit experiment.

The point of my comment was that there exists another (non-quantum) theory that pretends to provide a different explanation for the wave properties of light. This is Maxwell's electrodynamics, in which the light is described as an electromagnetic wave. In my opinion, it is totally intolerable when the same physical effect (e.g., the light interference) has two completely different explanations. Only one explanation must survive. I think that the quantum-mechanical explanation is the correct one.

Happy New Year!
Eugene.
 
  • #45
meopemuk said:
I still believe that ordinary 1-particle quantum mechanics should be applicable to photon states. In this quantum description there should exist some approximate (or non-commutative) representation of the photon's position. It must be so, because experimentally we can measure photon's position, e.g., as dark spots of the photographic plate.

The situation is actually quite complex. See
http://arnold-neumaier.at/ms/lightslides.pdf
http://arnold-neumaier.at/ms/optslides.pdf

meopemuk said:
Maxwell's electrodynamics, in which the light is described as an electromagnetic wave. In my opinion, it is totally intolerable when the same physical effect (e.g., the light interference) has two completely different explanations. Only one explanation must survive. I think that the quantum-mechanical explanation is the correct one.

The two views are closely related, and are part of the common picture called quantum electrodynamics (QED). It has both observables for the electromagnetic field and for photon number. Photons appear as the limit of geometric optics, while the Maxwell equations appear in the mean field limit.

Happy New Year!
 
  • #46
OOO said:
Maybe I am a bit too naive with respect to this. But isn't this simply quantum mechanics ?

commutative = simultaneously measurable = independent from each other = not causally related


or
Parameter Independence and Outcome Independence.
 
  • #47
An interesting physical way to understand how [O_1(t), O_2(t&#039;) ] relates to causality is through the linear response (Kubo) formalism. Suppose the system begins in the vacuum state, and you perturb the Hamiltonian with an external source V(t) = J(t) O_1. This could, for instance, be a background EM field, or an injection of particles. We wish to measure the observable O_2(t&#039;) at a later point in time, to lowest order in J. Standard time dependent perturbation theory, carried out in the interaction or Heisenberg picture, shows that the change in the observable O_2(t&#039;) depends on J(t) through the stated commutator ( ie, the retarded Green's function). If it vanishes, jostling O_1(t) leaves future measurements of O_2(t&#039;) unaffected.
 
  • #48
meopemuk said:
I still believe that ordinary 1-particle quantum mechanics should be applicable to photon states. In this quantum description there should exist some approximate (or non-commutative) representation of the photon's position.

Ordinary 1-particle quantum mechanics is applicable to photon states as long as you consistently work in the momentum representation, and restrict your states to be transversal to 4-momentum.

There are non-commutative position operators in the literature, but the formulas work both for photons and electrons, and in the latter case do not reduce to the Newton-Wigner position operator with commuting components that is well-known to correspond to the position representation of electrons. Thus the non-commutative position operators do not seem to have physical relevance.

meopemuk said:
It must be so, because experimentally we can measure photon's position, e.g., as dark spots of the photographic plate.

This only gives a very approximate position, consistent with the nonexistence of a position operator (that would produce sharp positions).

Note that most real measurement are not related to observables in the textbook sense but to so-called positive-operator-valued-measures (POVMs). The measurable photon position is of the latter kind.
 
  • #49
If a photon wave function is spread out over a very large area then how can it collapse over that large area instantly. Remember that it is observed at one location only. So how would an identical observation at a far distant location on the same wave function area 'know' that it had already been observed.

maybe we have to break -Bohm fashion- weak causality and admit that the photon knew its destination at its outset. The instant transmission of 'knowledge' is allowed in this context (but not information).
 
  • #50
wawenspop said:
If a photon wave function is spread out over a very large area then how can it collapse over that large area instantly. Remember that it is observed at one location only. So how would an identical observation at a far distant location on the same wave function area 'know' that it had already been observed.

You forget that measurements take time and are only approximately described by the highly idealized, instantaneous and complete measurements that figure in typical discussions of the foundations of quantum mechanics. The collapse is an idealization, too.
 
  • #51
A. Neumaier said:
You forget that measurements take time and are only approximately described by the highly idealized, instantaneous and complete measurements that figure in typical discussions of the foundations of quantum mechanics. The collapse is an idealization, too.

We could be talking about a photo that traveled billions of years in superposition 'spread' out over billions of square miles and at one location it is decohered, so what about the symmetrically same location a billion years away where it did not decohere? Seems there is a 'knowledge' at all locations where the photon 'could be'.
 
Last edited:
  • #52
wawenspop said:
We could be talking about a photo that traveled billions of years in superposition 'spread' out over billions of square miles and at one location it is decohered, so what about the symmetrically same location a billion years away where it did not decohere? Seems there is a 'knowledge' at all locations where the photon 'could be'.

A wave knows its shape locally, so there is no problem. A local measurement at a delocalized state cannot collapse the whole state but only the part within the projection to the local area.

This is enough to make your questions absurd and unanswerable.
 
  • #53
Hans de Vries said:
Exactly. The propagators never get outside the lightcone, neither if you simulate
the propagation on a lattice, nor with the exact analytical solutions.
...

Are you sure ?
Afaik, the propagator of a massless particle has a pole on the lightcone, but summing up the contributions due to internal lines in a diagram (by integration over 4-momenta), there are also contributions from propagators connecting events with timelike or even spacelike distance.
Afaik, causality in quantum field theories is ensured by the additional demand, that the commutators/anticommutators of bosonic/fermionic field operators have to vanish at spacelike distances. This makes sure that events with a spacelike distance cannot influence each other.
Regards,
Hawkwind
 

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