Renormalization of QFT - the counterterms

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    Qft Renormalization
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding counterterms in the context of renormalizing \(\phi^{4}\) theory, specifically focusing on how to derive the first new vertex from the modified Lagrangian presented in Peskin & Schroeder. Participants explore the implications of various terms in the Lagrangian and their contributions to Feynman rules.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about deriving the first new vertex from the Lagrangian, questioning the treatment of certain terms as kinetic energy terms rather than vertices.
  • Another participant suggests that the terms in question are treated as perturbations, indicating that the full propagator includes contributions from these terms.
  • A different viewpoint is presented, comparing the perturbation from \(\lambda/4!\phi^4\) producing a vertex with the perturbation from \(\delta_m/2!\phi^2\) also producing a vertex, emphasizing the role of momentum derivatives in the \(\delta_Z\) term.
  • One participant clarifies that the terms represent self-interaction types and that the propagator is derived from the free field terms, not the counterterms.
  • Another participant reiterates the importance of constructing the full propagator by considering an infinite series of diagrams, as indicated in the discussion of perturbation theory.
  • There is a disagreement regarding the approach to deriving Feynman rules, with some participants emphasizing the need to derive them from the full propagator while others point out that the rules are presented directly in the text.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of the terms in the Lagrangian and their contributions to the Feynman rules. Multiple competing views remain regarding the treatment of counterterms and the derivation of vertices.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the need for careful application of perturbation theory and the distinction between free field terms and interaction terms when deriving Feynman rules. There are unresolved aspects regarding the mathematical steps involved in these derivations.

nikol
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I would like to ask if anyone can give me a hand with the understanding of the counterterms. I am reading by myself Chapter 10 of Peskin & Shroeder and got stuck in the middle of their example of how to renormalize \phi^{4} theory. What is puzzling me is how to obtain from the new Lagrangian (equation 10.18):
\mathcal{L}=\frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu}\phi)^{2}_{r}-\frac{1}{2}m^{2}\phi^{2}_{r}-\frac{\lambda}{4!}\phi^{4}_{r}+\frac{1}{2}\delta_{Z}(\partial_{\mu}\phi)^{2}_{r}-\frac{1}{2}\delta_{m}\phi^{2}_{r}-\frac{\delta_{\lambda}}{4!}\phi^{4}_{r}
the first new vertex (shown on fig.10.3, the single line with the\otimes), equal to:
i(p^{2}\delta_{Z}-\delta_{m})
If you ask me, looking at terms (#4 + #5) in the above Lagrangian, this is a kinetic energy term and I imagine should bring a propagator into the Feynman rules (not a vertex!), that should look something like this:
\frac{i}{\delta_{Z}p^{2}-\delta_{m}})
Obviously I am not right and I would like to clarify what I am missing. Thanks in advance to anyone that tries to help.
 
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nikol said:
I would like to ask if anyone can give me a hand with the understanding of the counterterms. I am reading by myself Chapter 10 of Peskin & Shroeder and got stuck in the middle of their example of how to renormalize \phi^{4} theory. What is puzzling me is how to obtain from the new Lagrangian (equation 10.18):
\mathcal{L}=\frac{1}{2}(\partial_{\mu}\phi)^{2}_{r}-\frac{1}{2}m^{2}\phi^{2}_{r}-\frac{\lambda}{4!}\phi^{4}_{r}+\frac{1}{2}\delta_{Z}(\partial_{\mu}\phi)^{2}_{r}-\frac{1}{2}\delta_{m}\phi^{2}_{r}-\frac{\delta_{\lambda}}{4!}\phi^{4}_{r}
the first new vertex (shown on fig.10.3, the single line with the\otimes), equal to:
i(p^{2}\delta_{Z}-\delta_{m})
If you ask me, looking at terms (#4 + #5) in the above Lagrangian, this is a kinetic energy term and I imagine should bring a propagator into the Feynman rules (not a vertex!), that should look something like this:
\frac{i}{\delta_{Z}p^{2}-\delta_{m}})
Obviously I am not right and I would like to clarify what I am missing. Thanks in advance to anyone that tries to help.
It's because they're treating #4 and #5 as a perturbation. Note that if you start with the full propagator, \frac{i}{p^2 + \delta_{Z}p^{2}-m^2 - \delta_{m}}, the leading term in the perturbation expansion of this is \frac{i}{p^2-m^2} (\delta_{Z} p^2 - \delta_m)\frac{i}{p^2-m^2}, which is what the diagram represents.

In general, (A - B)-1 = A-1 + A-1 B A-1 + A-1 B A-1 B A-1 + ...
 
Last edited:
Another way of looking at what Bill_K write: just as the perturbation ##(\lambda/4!)\phi^4## produces a vertex with 4 incoming lines that has the value ##-i \lambda##, the perturbation ##(\delta_m/2!)\phi^2## produces a vertex with 2 incoming lines that has the value ##-i \delta_m##. The ##\delta_Z## term produces a similar vertex except that the derivatives bring down powers of momentum.
 
nikol said:
If you ask me, looking at terms (#4 + #5) in the above Lagrangian, this is a kinetic energy term and I imagine should bring a propagator into the Feynman rules (not a vertex!), that should look something like this:
\frac{i}{\delta_{Z}p^{2}-\delta_{m}})
Obviously I am not right and I would like to clarify what I am missing.
No,it is not a kinetic energy term from which you should extract the propagator.These terms represents self interaction type term.You will get propagator only by using the first two terms in the lagrangian which are free field term.You do get the vertex factor from it.You can use the general rule of obtaining the vertex factor by multiplying L by i,substitute the plane wave form for the field operators,then remove all the factors which are already taken care by normalization,external lines etc.The rest is vertex factor.You have to be a bit careful to apply this however.
The second method is to sandwich the interaction term between <0| and |k1k2>,write the\phi as plane wave.Now since only two \phi appears in any term(4th or 5th),you have k1+k2=0,when you evaluate the interaction term sandwiched between <0| and |k1k2>,you also have to include the possible permutation which after differentiation yields 1/2(2(ik1)(ik2z-2δm).
So you have 1/2[(-2k1k2δz)-2δm],use k1=-k2 and multiply the whole term by i(as per the first method).you have i(k2δzm),as required.
 
Bill_K said:
It's because they're treating #4 and #5 as a perturbation. Note that if you start with the full propagator, \frac{i}{p^2 + \delta_{Z}p^{2}-m^2 - \delta_{m}}, the leading term in the perturbation expansion of this is \frac{i}{p^2-m^2} (\delta_{Z} p^2 - \delta_m)\frac{i}{p^2-m^2}, which is what the diagram represents.

In general, (A - B)-1 = A-1 + A-1 B A-1 + A-1 B A-1 B A-1 + ...
It is just the other way around.You are supposed to build the full propagator by adding infinity of those diagram using the identity,you just mentioned.
 
andrien said:
It is just the other way around.You are supposed to build the full propagator by adding infinity of those diagram using the identity,you just mentioned.
Depends on what you are trying to accomplish, doesn't it. In this case we are trying to derive the Feynman rules, not employ them. If you take a look at the page in Peskin and Schroeder that we are discussing, you'll see that they derive the rules by expanding the full propagator.
 
Bill_K said:
Depends on what you are trying to accomplish, doesn't it. In this case we are trying to derive the Feynman rules, not employ them. If you take a look at the page in Peskin and Schroeder that we are discussing, you'll see that they derive the rules by expanding the full propagator.
I did give a derivation of the rule,but what I see on the page is that they write the lagrangian and write the feynman rules next.It is upto the person to derive them who is reading it.
 

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