Richard Dawkins Slams Pope as 'Stupid' for Views on Condoms and Aids in Africa

[yelram]

Its obvious what the pope meant. First of all, Condoms do not prevent Aids, even if properly used. Second, you give someone a condom, and tell them, "you can have all the sex you want, just use this, and you'll be safe", so they make decisions they otherwise wouldn't have. And that's even assuming that they use it correctly. Its like giving someone a bullet proof vest, and saying "now go out and shoot the bad guys, you're safe", and then they die from a head shot.

 

[arunma]

Its obvious what the pope meant. First of all, Condoms do not prevent Aids, even if properly used. Second, you give someone a condom, and tell them, "you can have all the sex you want, just use this, and you'll be safe", so they make decisions they otherwise wouldn't have. And that's even assuming that they use it correctly. Its like giving someone a bullet proof vest, and saying "now go out and shoot the bad guys, you're safe", and then they die from a head shot.

Well, it's more like giving someone a bulletproof vest and telling him to go get shot. But you make an excellent point.

Anyway, getting back to the original topic, here's the part I don't understand. Catholic teaching on this issue states that people ought to engage in only monogamous (and marital) heterosexual intercourse, without a condom. Personally I disagree with the condom part, but that's beside the point. If you obey this teaching properly, you're guaranteed to spread HIV to at most one person. If we throw out data points from nonconsentual sex for the moment, this basically eliminates the AIDS problem. The Pope is saying that faithful Catholics ought not to use condoms. Theoretically those Catholics will also be practicing marital sex only. And people who aren't Catholic shouldn't pay any regard to the Pope's teachings anyway. So what's the problem? If African Catholics obeyed the whole of Catholic teaching on sexuality, it would work just fine.

Clearly, the anti-Pope crowd is concerning themselves with a specific group of people: namely the hypocrites. These are the people who disobey the Pope on marital sex, but obey him in regard to condoms. I realize that almost all people engage in some degree of hypocrisy. But most people don't go this far. If you're a Catholic, it seems to me that you're going to ignore teaching on condoms before you ignore teaching on sexual morality. So whatever the Pope says about condoms should have an effect mostly on people who would otherwise not spread HIV to anyone but their spouses anyway. I don't see what the Dawkins crowd is accomplishing here. It seems as though this issue is little more than a platform to engage in the peddling of atheism. And if that's the case, then I do wish that they would end the pretense of actually caring about African AIDS victims.

 

[BobG]

Its obvious what the pope meant. First of all, Condoms do not prevent Aids, even if properly used. Second, you give someone a condom, and tell them, "you can have all the sex you want, just use this, and you'll be safe", so they make decisions they otherwise wouldn't have. And that's even assuming that they use it correctly. Its like giving someone a bullet proof vest, and saying "now go out and shoot the bad guys, you're safe", and then they die from a head shot.

This brings the subject right back to the post that got us started on the Galileo discussion. The two situations are different.

In the Galileo incident, the church refused to be staked to a position that might be wrong and they refused with a vengeance. In the Pope's comments, he staked himself (and the church to a certain extent) to some comments that can be proven wrong.

Condoms do reduce the chance of STD if properly used. Promoting condom use doesn't seem to have any effect on sexual behavior, including condom use.

 

[Evo]

I didn't claim any conclusive victory (at least not yet). Did I make any statement that you interpreted as such? And besides this, my claim is a negative statement. I would think the burden of proof rests on those who believe that atheism is conducive of good science. I have yet to see any valid argument to the contrary. What evidence do you have to suggest that atheism is conducive of good science?

arunma, you did not link to the posts in this thread that specifically claimed that atheists are better at science, perhaps I missed it, but the only person that I've found that said such a thing so far is you. Please link to those posts for me.

Please do that in your next post.

Thanks.

 

[Gokul43201]

What evidence do you have to suggest that atheism is conducive of good science?

There is a strong correlation between scientific caliber today and atheism. A causal relationship would be much harder to either demonstrate or invalidate. That's typically the way it works. Demonstrating correlation is often a lot easier than demonstration causation. So unless someone comes up with a clever experiment (or already has), we won't have a very good idea of whether it is more often that atheism that leads to scientific caliber or if it's the other way round.

 

[Gokul43201]

I didn't intend that implication - an attack on Tyson. I should have included more of the text. The video makes this clear.

Now here I think you give him too much credit. I don't take Dawkin's statement as "here's a statement of real radical". No, he makes that statement to show some affinity for it.

That's just your judgement, based on preformed opinions (and you may well be right), but there is nothing in the clip that says this is so. Nevertheless, Dawkins does clearly gratefully admit that he (Dawkins) is bad at the job of being an ambassador for science.

Obviously mine is a subjective take, and I point to Tyson's assessment of Dawkins earlier remarks: viewing oneself as the deliverer of truth. That mindset requires a rather fantastic self-elevation.

It does? If I am teaching a 10 year old kid where they made a mistake in an arithmetic problem, I view myself as a deliverer of some truth. Likewise, when I help someone out on the Homework Forums or give a conference talk or submit a paper for publication. If I don't think I am delivering truth, I ought to keep my mouth shut.

Edit: Here's some more. Debate w/ geneticist Francis Collins and Dawkins:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1555132-7,00.html
More of the 'think as I do, all else is folly' egoism. And after hearing quite a bit from Dawkins, I further say BS to his 'sorry' disclaimer, I don't think he's sorry at all.

Will read the article when I get some time - thanks for the link.

 

[BobG]

There is a strong correlation between scientific caliber today and atheism. A causal relationship would be much harder to either demonstrate or invalidate. That's typically the way it works. Demonstrating correlation is often a lot easier than demonstration causation. So unless someone comes up with a clever experiment (or already has), we won't have a very good idea of whether it is more often that atheism that leads to scientific caliber or if it's the other way round.

Very tough, indeed. In fact, the same question comes up about language. Does the prevalent thoughts of a people determine the characteristics of their language (which nouns are masculine, feminine, etc) or does the language affect the speakers' thought processes.

Shakespeare Had Roses All Wrong

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Very tough, indeed. In fact, the same question comes up about language. Does the prevalent thoughts of a people determine the characteristics of their language (which nouns are masculine, feminine, etc) or does the language affect the speakers' thought processes.

Shakespeare Had Roses All Wrong

I'd say its likely that culture (or collective thought) influences language and language influences individual thought.

off topic though. :-/

 

[jacksonpeeble]

It's the pope. Obviously, what he's saying is biased, and Dawkins knows this.

It's a political move.

 

[Gokul43201]

Well, I'd have to disagree there. I'm a theist, I do science, and I don't experience any cognitive dissonance. On the other hand I know atheistic scientists who believe in weird things like crystal magic and astrology (the astrology guy is doing his thesis on astrophysics!), so they clearly do experience cognitive dissonance.

I don't understand this. In what way is religiosity or theism different from beliefs in crystal magic or astrology that the former do not require compartmentalization from a scientist, but the latter do?

 

[Gokul43201]

Its obvious what the pope meant. First of all, Condoms do not prevent Aids, even if properly used.

They do about 90% of the time (approximate number). But if you want an absolute 100% certainty of prevention, you won't get that from anything else either (except, perhaps death) - not even by devoutly practicing abstinence.

Second, you give someone a condom, and tell them, "you can have all the sex you want, just use this, and you'll be safe so they make decisions they otherwise wouldn't have.",

This is a strawman argument. Condoms do not come packaged with lies. Nor are these lies propagated by aid agencies working in Africa.

And that's even assuming that they use it correctly. Its like giving someone a bullet proof vest, and saying "now go out and shoot the bad guys, you're safe", and then they die from a head shot.

No one's asking you (as in, the person giving the vest or the condom) to say things that are untrue. You (as in 'you') are only making an argument against false advertising, not against condom use.

But if the Pope were to use your argument, he could be expected to give a speech about why bullet proof vests should be disallowed in war-zones because they increase the odds of getting the wearer killed.

 

[arunma]

Evo, in regards to your last post to me, I haven't seen anyone here claim that atheism is conducive of good science (except perhaps the one quoted below?). I'm inferring, I think reasonably, from various statements made by Richard Dawkins that he believes this.

There is a strong correlation between scientific caliber today and atheism. A causal relationship would be much harder to either demonstrate or invalidate. That's typically the way it works. Demonstrating correlation is often a lot easier than demonstration causation. So unless someone comes up with a clever experiment (or already has), we won't have a very good idea of whether it is more often that atheism that leads to scientific caliber or if it's the other way round.

A few hundred years ago there would have been a very strong correlation between affluence and scientifc calibre. Based on the people in my physics department, a cleverly chosen sample could show a strong correlation between getting trashed on weekends and scientific calibre (that seems to be a common behavior among most of the other physicists I know, don't ask me why). If causality could be established by correlation, we could arrive at all kinds of absurd results. You're likely familiar with the global temperature vs. number o pirates curve on the Flying Spaghetti Monster website, which is ment to demonstrate the folly of deducing causality from correlation. I assume that you too are a physicist or other scientist. If so, then you know that causality isn't established by experiments alone, but by theory. This is not to disparage the importance of empirical data. As an experimental physicist myself, I rely heavily on data. But you need to construct a model from known physical laws, which can then be confirmed empirically, in order to demonstrate causality. If you don't have any theoretical reason as to why atheists make better scientists, you can't make any conclusive statements from correlation plots. In fact, the existence of preeminent theistic scientists and scientifically illiterate atheists would call your conclusion seriously into question.

I don't understand this. In what way is religiosity or theism different from beliefs in crystal magic or astrology that the former do not require compartmentalization from a scientist, but the latter do?

Many theistic religions have some basis in history (whether this historicity is valid is another topic, and is not relevant to this discussion). Thus the belief is rational. Crystal magic and astrology, on the other hand, are arbitrary, and have no basis in reality. Furthermore, I would add that if you're going to accuse any group of people of experiencing cognitive dissonance, it might be a good idea for you to propose some testable means of detecting this. Saying that certain people are compartmentalizing simply because they hold beliefs that you don't like isn't very scientific (let me know if this is not what you're saying).

Also, from personal experience I've found that atheists seem to have a much stronger tendency towards irrationality, especially militant atheists. The most irrational and emotionally-charged arguments I've ever heard came from militant atheists. Angry people tend to say foolish things. But maybe I'm encountering a biased sample, so I certainly wouldn't presume to present my personal experience as evidence of any kind.

 

[Gokul43201]

A few hundred years ago there would have been a very strong correlation between affluence and scientifc calibre.

And an obvious causal relationship as well.

Based on the people in my physics department, a cleverly chosen sample could show a strong correlation between getting trashed on weekends and scientific calibre (that seems to be a common behavior among most of the other physicists I know, don't ask me why).

This is not a rigorous statistical test; it is in fact, by your own admission, not based on a random sampling. It is at best a distortion of anecdotal evidence. And even without the distortion, that would be meaningless.

If causality could be established by correlation, we could arrive at all kinds of absurd results.

I am not saying that causality would follow simply from correlation. Even if I did, I would have to select the cause and the effect, which, given nothing else, would be arbitrary.

If so, then you know that causality isn't established by experiments alone, but by theory. This is not to disparage the importance of empirical data. As an experimental physicist myself, I rely heavily on data. But you need to construct a model from known physical laws, which can then be confirmed empirically, in order to demonstrate causality.

The model has already been proposed. See Siddharth's earlier post on compartmentalizing.

If you don't have any theoretical reason as to why atheists make better scientists, you can't make any conclusive statements from correlation plots. In fact, the existence of preeminent theistic scientists and scientifically illiterate atheists would call your conclusion seriously into question.

No, it would not. In a probabilistic model, it would require an accordingly significant size of such a set to trouble the model.

Many theistic religions have some basis in history (whether this historicity is valid is another topic, and is not relevant to this discussion).

If they have an invalid basis in history, how can one say that they have a basis in history? And so, how can one ignore the validity of the historicity (whatever that means in this context)?

Thus the belief is rational.

I have no idea how this follows from your previous statement. So, perhaps, I do not understand what "basis in history" means.

Crystal magic and astrology, on the other hand, are arbitrary, and have no basis in reality.

I would say that they have a basis in history just as most religions do. There are historical accounts of all kinds of magic and all sorts of accurate predictions of this and that performed by astrologers, entrail readers, palmists, and and dozen other kinds of such folk.

Furthermore, I would add that if you're going to accuse any group of people of experiencing cognitive dissonance, it might be a good idea for you to propose some testable means of detecting this.

I made no accusation of any such kind. All I did was ask you how one group of people was different from the other. I'm not even sure what cognitive dissonance entails, and never even used the term in any of my posts. You were the one accusing a certain group of people of suffering a cognitive dissonance. So, perhaps it is your job to propose the test you seek.

Saying that certain people are compartmentalizing simply because they hold beliefs that you don't like isn't very scientific (let me know if this is not what you're saying).

I never said any such thing, or even anything remotely close to it. I merely asked you a question. Siddharth, however, did say something about compartmentalizing, and I mostly agree with his statement.

Also, from personal experience I've found that atheists seem to have a much stronger tendency towards irrationality, especially militant atheists. The most irrational and emotionally-charged arguments I've ever heard came from militant atheists. Angry people tend to say foolish things. But maybe I'm encountering a biased sample, so I certainly wouldn't presume to present my personal experience as evidence of any kind.

I've kept my own set of anecdotes out of the thread, since they would be just as meaningless as yours, for the purpose of this discussion.

 

[arildno]

Saying that certain people are compartmentalizing simply because they hold beliefs that you don't like isn't very scientific (let me know if this is not what you're saying).

What nonsense!

Here, you conflate "beliefs I don't like/like" with "beliefs with/without evidentiary support"

We therefore have 4 classes of beliefs:
A "Beliefs I like that have no evidentiary support": I sure hold some of those, for example the belief that the universe is teeming with life-supporting planets.
People are free to dismiss this belief of mine as unevidenced, I don't mind.

"Beliefs I don't like, that has evidentiary support": I believe I'm going to die, I don't like that! But it doesn't mean it hasn't got evidentiary support..

You can fill out the two last categories.

The point is that you nonsensically says that the relevant line between the beliefs we dismiss is drawn between beliefs we like and beliefs we don't like, whereas the correct view is that we regard as dismissable those beliefs that lack evidential support.

That doesn't mean we HAVE TO dismiss them, we are entitled to retain a few unevidenced belief, in the full knowledge that they are, and therefore, everyone else are entitled to dismiss them as silly, unevidenced beliefs..

 

[Evo]

Evo, in regards to your last post to me, I haven't seen anyone here claim that atheism is conducive of good science (except perhaps the one quoted below?). I'm inferring, I think reasonably, from various statements made by Richard Dawkins that he believes this.

arunma, Gokul's post was a reply to your post. No one here made the statements you claimed prior to you complaining. Do not do this again.

 

[BobG]

It has been pointed out that most scientists today are not very religious. This is true, as those of us who work in physics departments can readily testify. However, the existence of religious scientists (of all religious affiliations) makes it difficult to argue that their is any causality between atheism and good science. Much credence has been given to Richard Dawkins, who seems to circumvent logic and claim otherwise. Insodoing, he actually discards the very scientific method that he appears to uphold. I want people here to consider carefully what they are saying. Richard Dawkins is basically the Ann Coulter of atheism. He issues emotionally charged arguments and employs childish, schoolyard taunts. I think we can all agree that Ann Coulter is a moron (no, that wasn't a schoolyard taunt). I would apply the same logic and state that Richard Dawkins is also a moron.

Evo, in regards to your last post to me, I haven't seen anyone here claim that atheism is conducive of good science (except perhaps the one quoted below?). I'm inferring, I think reasonably, from various statements made by Richard Dawkins that he believes this.

Perhaps a quote or link to those statements by Dawkins would help your case. Finding a quotation where Dawkins claims religious physicists or scientists fail to measure up to atheists would be hard to impossible. Still, his belief that religion is a http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Catalano/quotes.shtml could certainly lead one to think that he believes that those infected are somehow impaired in their thought processes.

It's certainly a subjective evaluation, but I think Dawkins:religion and Coulter:politics is a pretty fair comparison.

 

[mheslep]

...It does? If I am teaching a 10 year old kid where they made a mistake in an arithmetic problem, I view myself as a deliverer of some truth. Likewise, when I help someone out on the Homework Forums or give a conference talk or submit a paper for publication. If I don't think I am delivering truth, I ought to keep my mouth shut...

I think this makes my point. The public <> 10 year olds. And even for those largely ignorant of science, it is misleading for any scientific/engineering professional to claim to present 'the truth'. Instead, we present the evidence, showing attention to the scientific method along the way, to include alternative hypothesis that may also fit the data, range of uncertainty, etc. We are not the keepers of 'the truth'. I infer from Dawkin's statements that at some level he knows this, but his violent reaction to religion, perhaps encouraged by ego, none the less frequently has him presenting himself as the 'professor of delivering the truth', as Tyson says.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I disagree with this (After all, it is an economic theory :p). You're assuming that people make perfectly rational choices. Searching in google, gives me a list of empirical studies which show that availability of condoms does not increase sexual activity.

Not assuming people make perfectly rational choices, just that the rational choices outweigh the irrational ones.

The studies on prevalence of sexual activity don't convince me (though they might easily convince a rational person). I *am* convinced now, being more informed than I was at the start of this thread, that the net effect of condom use is to decrease the prevalence of STDs.

Well, as you pointed out, the only way that can happen is if the distribution of condoms directly increases the sexual activity of the public. I don't think there's any evidence of that published? Also, I think the numbers are that the use of condoms reduces the transmission rate by 80%.

I did not say that. The result could still follow if the distribution of condoms *indirectly* increased sexual activity. (In this case it seems that the large effect of transmission prevention outweighs whatever effect there is on sexual activity.)

80% seems too low -- I would expect condoms to be more effective than that.

 

[Ghost803]

Many theistic religions have some basis in history (whether this historicity is valid is another topic, and is not relevant to this discussion). Thus the belief is rational. Crystal magic and astrology, on the other hand, are arbitrary, and have no basis in reality.

What does having basis in history mean? That the texts are historically accurate? That they some times refer to historical events or locations that verifiably existed?

If the latter is the case, then would proponents of crystal magic be "rational" if they throw in random historical data and bundle it up with their beliefs?

 

[BobG]

Many theistic religions have some basis in history (whether this historicity is valid is another topic, and is not relevant to this discussion). Thus the belief is rational. Crystal magic and astrology, on the other hand, are arbitrary, and have no basis in reality.

What does having basis in history mean? That the texts are historically accurate? That they some times refer to historical events or locations that verifiably existed?

If the latter is the case, then would proponents of crystal magic be "rational" if they throw in random historical data and bundle it up with their beliefs?

Good question.

Especially since astrology is what motivated the first great scientific revolution in what became the field of astronomy. It gave some importance to being able to predict the future positions of the planets and the positions of the constellations at different times of the year.

Actually, religions had a lot to do with holding cultures together and I think the rationality of the beliefs were sometimes as irrelevant as the beliefs that yielded some pretty good results from astrology. They were a good thing regardless of their beliefs - within reason. A religion that would line up slaves or prisoners of war for a gruesome mass sacrifice might seem a little over the top, but I guess as long as the number of people sacrificed were kept small enough in proportion to the population, the religion yielded more benefits than disadvantages. If it didn't, then you'd think religious civilizations would die out quicker than non-religious civilizations and be pretty rare.

 

[Moridin]

Except for the fact that he seems to have no idea what he's talking about when it comes to religion. He is no more qualified to comment on religion than the Pope is to discuss String Theory.

This makes the invalid assumption that theology is a meaningful topic. It is like me brushing away your criticism towards the existence of fairies by claiming that you are not qualified to speak of fariology.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

This makes the invalid assumption that theology is a meaningful topic. It is like me brushing away your criticism towards the existence of fairies by claiming that you are not qualified to speak of fariology.

Subjects like religion (and even fairys believe it or not) have a long history and a deep significance to many people, their culture, and their heritage. I would say that regardless of its lack of meaning to you it does indeed have meaning to quite a large percentage of the planets population. If it didn't then this thread wouldn't exist and Dawkins would have no reason to criticize the Pope.

 

[Ghost803]

Subjects like religion (and even fairys believe it or not) have a long history and a deep significance to many people, their culture, and their heritage. I would say that regardless of its lack of meaning to you it does indeed have meaning to quite a large percentage of the planets population. If it didn't then this thread wouldn't exist and Dawkins would have no reason to criticize the Pope.

Even granting your idea to be valid, how is Dawkins then not qualified to speak on religion? Having read his books, I think his grasp of the history of the Catholic Church and Christianity in general is as sharp as that of any priest or pope.

 

[Moridin]

Subjects like religion (and even fairys believe it or not) have a long history and a deep significance to many people, their culture, and their heritage. I would say that regardless of its lack of meaning to you it does indeed have meaning to quite a large percentage of the planets population. If it didn't then this thread wouldn't exist and Dawkins would have no reason to criticize the Pope.

Subjects like witchcraft and demonology have a long history and a deep significance to many people, their culture, and their heritage. I would say that regardless of its lack of meaning to you it does indeed have meaning to quite a large percentage of the planets population. If it didn't then this thread wouldn't exist and Dawkins would have no reason to criticize the Devil and Witches.

Naturally, this fact does not entail the fact that witchcraft and demonology are meaningful subjects to discuss like physics or economy and therefore, arguments that purport to dismiss criticism of itself simply by pointing out that the opponent is not an esteemed expert in said area are invalid.

 

[phi29]

We need to tiptoe around religious figures, chroot, because they are great examples of what human beings can be. How can anyone be hostile toward a person so devoted to charity and doing good works in the world? People confuse Roman Catholicism with Christian fundamentalism, or evangelism.

 

[Cyrus]

We need to tiptoe around religious figures, chroot, because they are great examples of what human beings can be. How can anyone be hostile toward a person so devoted to charity and doing good works in the world? People confuse Roman Catholicism with Christian fundamentalism, or evangelism.

Mmmmm, no they are not.

 

[mgb_phys]

We need to tiptoe around religious figures, chroot, because they are great examples of what human beings can be.

We have to be nice to dictators because they have imaginary friends?

People confuse Roman Catholicism with Christian fundamentalism, or evangelism.

RC is worse. The man with the big hat banning condoms in countries with high aids rates is a lot more dangerous than a bunch of idiots in Texas claiming that man lived with dinosaurs.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Even granting your idea to be valid, how is Dawkins then not qualified to speak on religion? Having read his books, I think his grasp of the history of the Catholic Church and Christianity in general is as sharp as that of any priest or pope.

Naturally, this fact does not entail the fact that witchcraft and demonology are meaningful subjects to discuss like physics or economy and therefore, arguments that purport to dismiss criticism of itself simply by pointing out that the opponent is not an esteemed expert in said area are invalid.

I never said that Dawkins could not discuss the topic or had no knowledge of it. I took exception to the assertion that such topics are not meaningful and which seemed to infer that any expertise of the Pope on such topics is meaningless.

Sorry for my late response.

 

[Hans de Vries]

I am afraid the topic is not good (bit religious).. but, I got to love Dawkins here
(What Pope said, that just doesn't make sense)

The pope simply pursues the same successful, centuries old, strategy for growth.

It's not that long ago that Catholic families in Europe had 6 to 10 children and that
the church would visit families in years when there wasn't any new born baby to see
what was wrong with the marriage and what could be done about it.

It's only 25 years ago that the average female had 6 children in Roman Catholic
South America. It's now down to the 2.5 region thanks to disobedience to the church
and the use of anti conception pills.

Africa is still a "growth market" and they probably figure that not using condoms
gives more new born Roman Catholics as it kills existing ones. I wouldn't be surprised
if they see AIDS as an act of god anyway.Regards, Hans