Rutherford's gold foil experiment

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Rutherford's gold foil experiment, focusing on its implications for atomic structure and the behavior of alpha particles when interacting with gold atoms. Participants express various doubts and seek clarification on specific aspects of the experiment, including its theoretical underpinnings and experimental observations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the specific aspects of Rutherford's experiment that need clarification.
  • One participant mentions the angular dependence of the scattering formula, suggesting deviations at large angles indicate interactions with additional structures.
  • Another participant discusses the quantum mechanical implications of charge distribution in atoms, noting that the elastic cross section differs from the Rutherford formula at large angles.
  • There is a debate about whether Rutherford's findings can be generalized to explain the structure of a single atom, with some arguing he discovered the concentration of positive charge in the nucleus while others assert he did not explain atomic structure fully.
  • Participants discuss the implications of observing both straight-through and greatly deflected alpha particles, suggesting that this indicates non-homogeneity in atomic structure.
  • One participant mentions that backward scattering can also occur with thick solid pieces, emphasizing the dependence on nuclear properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the implications of Rutherford's experiment for atomic structure, with multiple competing views remaining regarding the interpretation of the results and their significance.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on specific assumptions about atomic behavior and the nature of scattering, which may not be universally accepted. There are unresolved questions regarding the applicability of the Rutherford model in different contexts.

johncena
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Can anyone explain the experiment? i am having a big doubt in it.
 
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Explain your doubt.
 
negitron said:
Explain your doubt.

The OP is probably Indian and means doubt in the sense of 'question' rather than in the more-common (and western) usage of 'disbelief'.
 
It doesn't matter; either way, it applies: what's the question, specifically? Sure, I can explain Rutherford's experiment, but without knowing what's giving the OP trouble, it's hard to know which aspect to focus on.
 
First of all, if you write out the equations for Rutherford scattering of alpha particles from a point nuclear charge, you get an equation that has an angular dependence something like sin4(θ/2) (my memory fails a little). If it deviates from this at large angles, then the alpha particle is hitting something. I did this experiment in a physics lab many years ago, and my biggest problem was that the gold foil stuck to my fingers.

Erratum: It should read 1/sin4(θ/2) . See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_scattering
 
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When I was deriving the formula for scattering fast charged particles from atoms, I discovered that, due to motion around the atomic center of inertia, the positive charge in an atom is quantum mechanically smeared, just like the negative (electron) charge but localized in much smaller region. Thus the elastic cross section differs from the Rutherford formula at large angles. It can be observed in specially designed experiments.

By the way, in a solid state the nucleus QM de-localisation is as large as the lattice step so the elastic cross section differs essentially from the Rutherford formula at large angles. It is the inclusive cross section (elastic + inelastic ones) that is reduced to the Rutherford formula. Normally it is the inclusive cross section that is observed.
 
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Bob S said:
First of all, if you write out the equations for Rutherford scattering of alpha particles from a point nuclear charge, you get an equation that has an angular dependence something like sin4(θ/2) (my memory fails a little). If it deviates from this at large angles, then the alpha particle is hitting something. I did this experiment in a physics lab many years ago, and my biggest problem was that the gold foil stuck to my fingers.

Oh sure. Whenever we do experiments with lead foil or aluminum foil there are no problems. But the second we use gold foil all the students suddenly get a case of very "sticky fingers" indeed...
 
A thin gold foil contains infinite number of atoms.So, by passing alpha rays to this foil , how was Rutherford able to explain the structure of a single atom?
 
johncena said:
A thin gold foil contains infinite number of atoms.So, by passing alpha rays to this foil , how was Rutherford able to explain the structure of a single atom?

He did not explain the structure of a single atom, he discovered that the positive charge is entirely concentrated in a heavy particle (nucleus) whereas the negative charge is concentrated in one-charge light electrons. The Rutherford model needed in fact QM to explain the atomic stability.
 
  • #10
johncena said:
A thin gold foil contains infinite number of atoms

No. In a thin gold foil the alpha particle might only need pass through several hundred atoms. If these atoms where more or less homogenious then we would expect that every alpha particle would interact with the foil in much the same way as every other alpha particle. But Rutherford instead observed that many alpha particles went straight through with little or no deflection yet a few were greatly deflected and some even rebounded (deflected more than 180 degrees). This provided very good evidence that the atoms were not homogenious and lead to the proposed model of a compact positive nucleus containing most of the mass in only a very small amount of the total atom volume.
 
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  • #11
johncena said:
A thin gold foil contains infinite number of atoms.So, by passing alpha rays to this foil , how was Rutherford able to explain the structure of a single atom?

The Rutherford (backward) scattering is also observed from a thick solid pieces. It is not possible without heavy nuclei. There is a strong Z- and M_a dependence of the scattered flux.
 

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