News S&P Downgrades US To AA+, Outlook Negative

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The discussion centers on the U.S. credit rating downgrade by Standard & Poor's (S&P), attributed to perceived weaknesses in American political institutions and fiscal policy. Participants argue that the downgrade reflects a failure to effectively manage spending and debt, with particular blame directed at both major political parties for their inability to make substantial cuts. The Tea Party is mentioned as a group that attempted to address these issues but faced significant opposition. There is a consensus that the political gridlock, especially surrounding the debt ceiling negotiations, contributed to the downgrade, with some arguing that threats of default were exaggerated. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of government spending, the hoarding of cash by businesses due to uncertainty, and the historical context of fiscal responsibility across administrations. Overall, the dialogue highlights a deep frustration with the current political climate and its impact on economic stability.
  • #51
There is a misconception that a trade "deficit" is bad, and that a trade "surplus" is a good thing. But those are just the terms.

If you believe household debt is bad AND you believe government debt is bad, then you must also believe a trade deficit is bad.

A trade deficit means that on average, the country is buying more expensive products then it sells. To do this, it must be accumulating debt. It is impossible to run a trade deficit without government deficits or increasing household debt.
 
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  • #52
russ_watters said:
I realize it is a chicken or egg problem, but the way I see it, businesses are hoarding cash largely because of long term debt uncertainty, which keeps unemployment up and stalls the recovery.

Another name for it is a liquidity trap.
 
  • #53
ParticleGrl said:
If you believe household debt is bad AND you believe government debt is bad, then you must also believe a trade deficit is bad.

A trade deficit means that on average, the country is buying more expensive products then it sells. To do this, it must be accumulating debt. It is impossible to run a trade deficit without government deficits or increasing household debt.

Stop talking so much sense =P
 
  • #54
CAC1001 said:
Well I don't think we want a positive trade balance. There is a misconception that a trade "deficit" is bad, and that a trade "surplus" is a good thing. But those are just the terms. It's like how some believe a "strong" dollar is good and a "weak" dollar is bad. There is nothing wrong with a trade deficit. It is a sign of the country's wealth and prosperity. It has been shrinking as of late because the country is not prospering right now. It always tends to shrink during bad recessions. It is a sign of poorer country when it exports more then it imports. It is a sign of a wealthier country when it imports more then it exports; also, a good chunk of the U.S. trade deficit is due to importing oil.
Then it would appear that the US is not as wealthy as many perceive. One solution to the trade deficit would be to significantly reduce oil imports and replace by domestically developed resources, e.g., natural gas (assuming it can be done without polluting the environment, particuarly drinking water supplies), wind, solar, hydro and nuclear energy.
Remember, during the Great Depression, the U.S. ran a very tiny trade deficit and a trade surplus for some of the years of the Depression. The trade deficit is just the result of the millions of voluntary exchanges that take place between businesses and individuals within the U.S. with businesses and individuals outside of the U.S. Such voluntary exchanges will not occur unless both parties benefit in the process.
A tiny or intermittent deficit would not be necessarily bad or problematic - IF there was a corresponding surplus.

I agree on the budget deficits. But remember there's a difference between a budget deficit and a trade deficit. The federal government doesn't control the trade deficit. That is just the result of the market. They could try to influence it maybe by trying to increase or decrease free trade overall, but otherwise, it's just the natural play of the free market. Whereas a budget deficit, the government directly controls that to a good deal. Short-term budget deficits due to a recession the government doesn't control, but in general, if the country is running constant deficits, even in good times, then the government is spending too much money for what it takes in in tax revenues.
The federal debt/deficit is structually linked to the trade deficit (which are substantial, not tiny). The trade deficit represents money leaving the US economy, significant loss of tax revenue, significant expenditures to cover the unemployment associated with the job loss, . . .

The money associated with the trade deficit is invested in those countries from which the US imports. Some of that money is then spent on US exports, e.g., aircraft, military hardware, technology, etc. But a subtantial amount of that money is lent back to the US. Chronic deficits lead to accumulated debt/obligations. Defaulting on debt is problematic because of the loss of confidence in the process.

You mean divide it up among the American people? That would create a whole slew of problems I would think. Certain politicians and pundits would start yelling it is unfair to make the guy making $30K a year pay the same debt load as the guy making $300K a year, and we'd have more class warfare. Also, remember some of the debt is owned by the American people themselves! The debt doesn't need to be paid off, it just needs to be reduced.
I indicated equitable division. The person earning $30 K might pay $1K, while the person earning $300K might pay $10K. Basically, the federal debt is owned by the people - it is money borrowed in the name of the American people.

This itself may not even really require paying down the debt, so much as returning the country to a healthy level of economic growth and running a constant balanced budget. This way, as the GDP increases, the debt, as a percentage of the GDP, will shrink year-after-year. If it is viewed that the debt is too large to the point it is hamstringing achieving a healthy level of economic growth, I could see paying it down some perhaps.
The debt has to be paid down, because it is unmanageable as it is! The economy/GDP has rarely, if ever, grown at the rates required to reduce the debt, i.e., eliminate the deficit. Supposedly it did during the latter years of the Clinton administration. Modern US federal deficits have exceeded 8% of GDP, and in 2010 it was about 10% of the GDP. The GDP growth is rarely above 5%, and more recently has been around a rolling average of ~3%.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual (adjust the beginning of the scale to 1948)

However, the GDP growth should be adjusted for the federal deficit, and I believe that it is not. Buried in the GDP is the US government expenditures, which have become increasingly laden with deficits. Subtracting the government deficits from the GDP would give a more realistic assessment of the state of the US economy. And I believe one will find it rather poor.
 
  • #55
jreelawg said:
Like Obama, he may be a leader, but the power to lead is not in his control. Unless you expect them to inspire their piers to do their will somehow. Maybe they should get to work on a poem.

In response to your post:

"I remember hearing Wolf Blitzer saying something like, he thinks we will avert default, but that at this point you can't be sure. And one side of the debate made it clear that they were willing to default if they didn't get their way. "

Again, the Republican Leader - Speaker of the House John Boehner did not threaten to allow default. Also, the media hyped a possible default - and blamed Republicans throughout the debate.
 
  • #56
Astronuc said:
I indicated equitable division. The person earning $30 K might pay $1K, while the person earning $300K might pay $10K. Basically, the federal debt is owned by the people - it is money borrowed in the name of the American people.

The debt has to be paid down, because it is unmanageable as it is!

Let's not forget the people earning less than $30K astro - will the Politicians give them money so they can pay their fair share? (sorry)
 
  • #57
WhoWee said:
Let's not forget the people earning less than $30K astro - will the Politicians give them money so they can pay their fair share? (sorry)
I didn't pick a limit on income. I merely stated an equitable division of debt allocation - to be determined.

As for the poor paying taxes - don't they already pay taxes in the sense that they pay exhorbitant fees (interest) to pay-day lenders? I see folks in the check-cashing store across from my office paying excessive fees on every bill they pay. They don't earn enough to have a bank account, so they often borrow to pay for food, rent, . . . before payday.

But there are some that cash their federal and state subsidies. I would expect federal and state subsidies would be reduced to manageable levels.

Then there are those on EITC. I read somewhere, and probably have the link buried in my library of files, that a substantial portion of those in the EITC program are military families (mostly families of enlisted ranks).
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=177571,00.html


My main point is, and has been, the systemic problems with the US economy, including the chronic federal and trade deficits, burgeoning debt, . . . . We've reached a point where the only solutions seem to be drastic, but not all viable solutions need to be drastic. However, we seem to lack the necessary leadership to resolve what has become a crisis.
 
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  • #58
Astronuc said:
I indicated equitable division. The person earning $30 K might pay $1K, while the person earning $300K might pay $10K. Basically, the federal debt is owned by the people - it is money borrowed in the name of the American people.

Here are the numbers.

A person (strictly speaking, a tax filer - so married filed jointly is one "person") making $30K would have to pay $51,900. A person making $300K would have to pay $519,000. (Calculated from $14.5T in national debt and $8.4T in adjusted gross income)
 
  • #59
WhoWee said:
Total crap! How much spending is attributed to the TEA Party?

I don’t think you get it.

Yes, there are problems in the U.S. economy, as in most other western countries. We were on the brink to global depression in 2008/2009, remember? But the U.S. is nowhere near the full-blown crises in Europe, where Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal are on the edge to bankruptcy.

In this situation, to just get hysterical fixated with the trillion dollars in national debt + the ridicules aversion for current President, is not going to fix the problem. Everybody has to act like adults and take responsibility for their actions, and not make up fantasy rules that the market does not believe in.

I hope you know that most important factor when it comes to the national debt is the relation to GDP. If you have $15 trillion dollars in GDP and $14 trillion dollars in national debt, it’s not good, but still manageable. If you have $10 trillion dollars in GDP and $14 trillion dollars in national debt, you’re in a "Greece situation", with bankruptcy knocking on the door.

My question to you:
– Do you really think that if you and the Tea Extremists hits the all brakes all the way down in a "historical" situation like this, U.S. companies ('sitting' on $1.5 trillion dollars) will wake up and start investing and hiring people, just like that?

If the answer is yes, please back it up with some professional financial facts – personal fantasyland won’t do.

And before answering, maybe you should read this:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/are-we-about-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-1937/"

WhoWee said:
Please consider this:
Would anyone be surprised if a global public corporation hired a CEO with no business or executive experience at a time of extreme financial distress - and the value of the stock dropped after the new hires policies failed to solve the problems and shareholders took steps to place problem solvers on the board?

Talking about crap, this woman is a "problem solver"??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPYC2NFYyY

That’s just hilarious. She’s the dysfunctional root of "the problem", as S&P points out.
 
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  • #60
Ivan Seeking said:
Yep. Obama and Boehner could have cut a $4 trillion dollar deal - just what S&P wanted to see. But the requirement that we can't raise taxes under any circumstances, no matter how many cuts were made, even when facing a downgrade, drove this into the dirt.

Yeah, I know, the tea drinkers humiliated Boehner in public:

Tea Party’s War on America
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/opinion/the-tea-partys-war-on-america.html

I’m wondering... for how long are the (true) Republicans going to tolerate this destructive behavior from the tea sandpit?

Ivan Seeking said:
The problem isn't the debt. The problem is the gridlock caused by the tea party. But many tea drinkers want the economy to collapse so we can start from scratch, so there you go.

Wow... it’s seems crazy and very dangerous to the whole global economy... no wonder they accuse them for waging jihad on the American people...

Isn’t it time for the (true) Republicans and Democrats to form some kind of "crisis alliance", to 'bypass' this immature and dangerous behavior, until we get out of this crisis??
 
  • #61
Pengwuino said:
I don't even think we'll need to wait months. Enough things have happened over the past couple of years and especially the last month or two for everyone to downgrade the US. Unless the S&P decision was grossly flawed, I believe Moody's will be next to downgrade.

I sure hope you are wrong... :frown:

Pengwuino said:
@DevilsAvacado

No one 'ranks' ratings agencies (I have a feeling you are curious as to who oversees them). Would any investor feel confident investing in US Treasuries if the US government oversaw the ratings agency that told you US T-bills are AAA quality? Ha. Why not have dairies be in charge of inspecting and reporting on their own facilities? Or have people in charge of their own credit scores?

I don’t know what I was asking for... :blushing: but it would be real interesting to see both the names & faces of the clients who paid for this rating report... i.e. if "global hell" breaks out on Monday...

Today, it’s already chaotic in Israel: http://news.yahoo.com/tel-aviv-exchange-halts-trade-6-fall-082839508.html"
 
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  • #62
Astronuc said:
and raise taxes appropriately, and reduce spending appropriately, and pay down the debt.

Yep, that’s the way to do it!

Astronuc said:
And a bigger question is - "How can we make it (the US economy) work for everyone?"

Extremely good question, when 46 million Americans live on food stamps...

Astronuc said:
As I see it, the US economy is imbalanced by virtue of being heavily dependent on consumption and services. I heard sometime ago, a claim (by Sen. Bernie Sanders, IIRC) that 40% of profits in the economy came from the financial sector (or banks). The financial sector doesn't create wealth, but rather shifts it around.

My personal guess is that whit 1.3 billion Chinese and 1.2 Indians willing to work in the industry at very low salaries, the only way to compete is thru technology, knowledge and innovations.
 
  • #63
Proton Soup said:
a few points. first, your violent rhetoric is irresponsible. holding out for a balanced budget amendment is not a violent act, but your use of that rhetoric just may lead in that direction.

I’m not quite sure I’m able to follow your 'logic'...? My "violent rhetoric" is going to cause violence? Where and by whom??

Proton Soup said:
we'd just have to cut out a bunch of government. I'm sure you know how that works, states do it all the time. where i live it's called "proration" usually. and what it has meant is that we haven't been able to keep as many courthouses open, people may have to drive a bit further to renew their driver's license, etc.

That’s some real piece of innovative economics you’ve got there, dude. All we have to do is to close down a few courthouses, get in the car, drive around, and bada bing bada boom! You just saved $14 trillion dollars!

Amazing, why didn’t anyone think of that before...

Dumb question: These 46 million Americans on food stamps... eh... how are they going to participate in this solution of yours...?

Proton Soup said:
so how about you tone down the partisanship and the Breivik-inspired rhetoric

Give me a call when you return to earth, I miss the old Proton Soup, very much.
 
  • #64
This is what happens in the United States of Corporate America.
 
  • #65
xAstronomer said:
This is what happens in the United States of Corporate America.

We the Incorporated.

I'm surprised it wasn't downgraded years ago. No corporation, much less a country, can be healthy while maintaining such a high debt ratio.

Apple's debt ratio: 0%. There's a reason Apple is very healthy Fortune 500 company, and it's innovative products are only a small part of its success. Other Fortune 500 companies lack Apple's eye-catching products, yet share in Apple's debt-free, Fortune 500 success because they know how to govern themselves responsible.

That's a skill America lost a long time ago.
 
  • #66
Astronuc said:
I didn't pick a limit on income. I merely stated an equitable division of debt allocation - to be determined.

As for the poor paying taxes - don't they already pay taxes in the sense that they pay exhorbitant fees (interest) to pay-day lenders? I see folks in the check-cashing store across from my office paying excessive fees on every bill they pay. They don't earn enough to have a bank account, so they often borrow to pay for food, rent, . . . before payday.

But there are some that cash their federal and state subsidies. I would expect federal and state subsidies would be reduced to manageable levels.

Then there are those on EITC. I read somewhere, and probably have the link buried in my library of files, that a substantial portion of those in the EITC program are military families (mostly families of enlisted ranks).
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=177571,00.html


My main point is, and has been, the systemic problems with the US economy, including the chronic federal and trade deficits, burgeoning debt, . . . . We've reached a point where the only solutions seem to be drastic, but not all viable solutions need to be drastic. However, we seem to lack the necessary leadership to resolve what has become a crisis.

This discussion probably belongs in the other thread regarding raising tax rates. The solution to this problem is clearly going to require multiple components including cost controls, tax increases and a wider base, entitlement reform (as David Beers of S&P described in an interview this morning with Chris Wallace - can't find a link yet), GDP growth, and a major reduction of unemployment.

However, the US Government is currently borrowing $.43 per $1.00 it spends - the first step of the solution can't be another spending program without cutting first. The last "stimulus" was poorly conceived as evidenced by the President's comment about projects not being "shovel ready" as thought.

Worse yet, some of the spending went to states to continue their bloated spending programs and to expand Medicaid - when they should have been making cuts instead. Now the states are making cuts. I think it's possible all the stimulus accomplished was to delay recovery at the state level. The same argument can be made for trying to prop up real estate prices - the market won't recover until it bottoms - why delay it?

Again, we can address repayment of the debt in the other thread. I think we need a plan to deal with not only the $14.3+Trillion debt but the other $100Trillion+ unfunded liabilities that are in our future. This is the time to do it - not when we start chasing higher interest rates.
 
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  • #67
DevilsAvocado said:
I don’t think you get it.

Yes, there are problems in the U.S. economy, as in most other western countries. We were on the brink to global depression in 2008/2009, remember? But the U.S. is nowhere near the full-blown crises in Europe, where Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal are on the edge to bankruptcy.

In this situation, to just get hysterical fixated with the trillion dollars in national debt + the ridicules aversion for current President, is not going to fix the problem. Everybody has to act like adults and take responsibility for their actions, and not make up fantasy rules that the market does not believe in.

I hope you know that most important factor when it comes to the national debt is the relation to GDP. If you have $15 trillion dollars in GDP and $14 trillion dollars in national debt, it’s not good, but still manageable. If you have $10 trillion dollars in GDP and $14 trillion dollars in national debt, you’re in a "Greece situation", with bankruptcy knocking on the door.

My question to you:
– Do you really think that if you and the Tea Extremists hits the all brakes all the way down in a "historical" situation like this, U.S. companies ('sitting' on $1.5 trillion dollars) will wake up and start investing and hiring people, just like that?

If the answer is yes, please back it up with some professional financial facts – personal fantasyland won’t do.

And before answering, maybe you should read this:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/are-we-about-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-1937/"



Talking about crap, this woman is a "problem solver"??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPYC2NFYyY

That’s just hilarious. She’s the dysfunctional root of "the problem", as S&P points out.


It's quite clear to me we picked the wrong time to elect a President with absolutely ZERO financial or executive experience. I find it easy to make an argument that he allowed Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi to take the lead legislatively - while he has toured the globe giving speeches, "earning" a Nobel, closing Gitmo(?), holding terrorist trials in NY(?), holding a "beer summit", lobbying for the Olympics in Chicago (failed), working as a "rain maker" for GE in India, supporting oil production in South America (but working against drilling and production in the US?), creating and saving a few million jobs (yet unemployment is still over 9%?), entering into yet another war in Libya, (I'm honestly not sure what he's doing in) Egypt, and continues to blame Bush (even for tax cuts that he adopted as his own a few months ago?) - as the media continues to praise him. I think this is much more relevant than whatever Michele Bachman is talking about in Iowa. Please label this post - IMO.
 
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  • #68
DevilsAvocado said:
I’m not quite sure I’m able to follow your 'logic'...? My "violent rhetoric" is going to cause violence? Where and by whom??
That’s some real piece of innovative economics you’ve got there, dude. All we have to do is to close down a few courthouses, get in the car, drive around, and bada bing bada boom! You just saved $14 trillion dollars!

Amazing, why didn’t anyone think of that before...

Dumb question: These 46 million Americans on food stamps... eh... how are they going to participate in this solution of yours...?
Give me a call when you return to earth, I miss the old Proton Soup, very much.

you're calling people terrorists. there is something wrong with you. it's simply politics. and everybody has been holding out to get their way. tea party only makes up about 12% of congress. they simply don't have the numbers to force anything. the real problem, which you can't seem to bring yourself to address, is that we simply spend too much, democrats and republicans. but the major parties do not want to compromise or give in on anything. it is a bipartisan failure. 88% of congress acts like spoiled children.

as for food stamps, is that really what you think needs to be cut?
 
  • #69
ParticleGrl said:
If you believe household debt is bad AND you believe government debt is bad, then you must also believe a trade deficit is bad.

A trade deficit means that on average, the country is buying more expensive products then it sells. To do this, it must be accumulating debt. It is impossible to run a trade deficit without government deficits or increasing household debt.
That would only necessarily be true if imports and exports were the only components of the economy.
 
  • #70
DoggerDan said:
We the Incorporated.

I'm surprised it wasn't downgraded years ago. No corporation, much less a country, can be healthy while maintaining such a high debt ratio.

Apple's debt ratio: 0%. There's a reason Apple is very healthy Fortune 500 company, and it's innovative products are only a small part of its success. Other Fortune 500 companies lack Apple's eye-catching products, yet share in Apple's debt-free, Fortune 500 success because they know how to govern themselves responsible.

That's a skill America lost a long time ago.

Not to be a wet blanket - but Apple was "saved" by Microsoft a few years ago.
 
  • #71
DevilsAvocado said:
I’m wondering... for how long are the (true) Republicans going to tolerate this destructive behavior from the tea sandpit?

The tea party is a misnomer in the sense that it is a party; instead, its a movement within the GOP base. In other words, the tea party is a part of the base of the republican party.
 
  • #72
I think asian markets are going to be interesting to watch tonight.
 
  • #73
SixNein said:
The tea party is a misnomer in the sense that it is a party; instead, its a movement within the GOP base. In other words, the tea party is a part of the base of the republican party.

I find the (apparent) need to identify the TEA Party movement as part of the Republican Party to be counter-productive to the Left. I've talked to many independents and moderate Democrats (in OH and PA mostly, but NY, VA and MD as well) that consider themselves part of the TEA Party - ridiculing this group in 2012 will be a BIG mistake.
 
  • #74
WhoWee said:
I find the (apparent) need to identify the TEA Party movement as part of the Republican Party to be counter-productive to the Left. I've talked to many independents and moderate Democrats (in OH and PA mostly, but NY, VA and MD as well) that consider themselves part of the TEA Party - ridiculing this group in 2012 will be a BIG mistake.

The tea party is a part of the republican base.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=FreedomWorks
 
  • #75
Anyone else besides me doing substantial* ACH transfers into their investment accounts?

Warren Buffett said:
Occasional outbreaks of those two super-contagious diseases, fear and greed, will forever occur in the investment community. The timing of these epidemics is equally unpredictable, both as to duration and degree. Therefore we never try to anticipate the arrival or departure of either. We simply attempt to be fearful when others are greedy and to be greedy only when others are fearful.

*"substantial" of course being every last penny of cash I have in my bank account. Which amounts to little more than $200. Gads I hate being poor.

But I do love roller coaster rides. Yippie!
 
  • #77
OmCheeto said:
Anyone else besides me doing substantial* ACH transfers into their investment accounts?
I'm not moving my assets around because I don't need access to them right now. Actually, I hope the Fed has to raise the short-term lending rate soon, because I'm earning practically nothing on my liquid assets.
 
  • #78
russ_watters said:
That would only necessarily be true if imports and exports were the only components of the economy.

Its a basic accounting identity. Consider, GDP (Y) is C+I+G+NX. Your total GDP is consumption+investment+Governmentspending+net exports.

Now, also, Y = C+S+T (consumption+savings+taxes). Any dollar not consumed or taxed is saved.

Put them together, and you find

NX = (S-I)+(T-G).

If net exports is negative, then either I is bigger than S, or G is bigger than T. A trade deficit requires negative household balances or deficit government spending. If you have a macroeconomics book, crack it open to the section on twin deficits to read more.
 
  • #79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPYC2NFYyY
Did she really say "He's got to come up with a new deal" at 1:31?
 
  • #80
Jimmy Snyder said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPYC2NFYyY
Did she really say "He's got to come up with a new deal" at 1:31?

Yes. He and she repeated it later.

Thanks a lot for making me watch that.

I almost threw up.

Neil said:
...
You were ahead of the curve.
...
You said something that was very profound...
Michelle said:
...
You can't fool the markets.
...
The markets have said that this deal stinks.
...

I would like to remind people that I've been without cable for the last 18 months now, and this is actually the first time I've listened to [STRIKE]Sarah[/STRIKE] Michele Bachmann speak.

And thank you Jimmy for making me watch that. If she's our new leadership, I think I'll just cash out my whole portfolio and move to Waterworld.

Who the **** elects these kind of ******* morons?

moderator deletion precognitived...
 
  • #81
Jimmy Snyder said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPYC2NFYyY
Did she really say "He's got to come up with a new deal" at 1:31?

At 3:25 she explains the comment.
 
  • #82
SixNein said:
The tea party is a part of the republican base.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=FreedomWorks

Here's my point - there are hundreds of "TEA Parties" across the country. They are local groups - many actually formed around kitchen tables.

Yes, I agree they came together at a few large events including the tax day rallies and the DC events. Also, I agree that Glen Beck motivated a great many people to form groups with his 9/12 Project.

However, I challenge you to name the leader.

Last, the new House Republicans along with Michelle Bachman have formed a group and taken the name TEA Party Caucus - and this causes some confusion. The members of the TEA Party Caucus happen to be Republicans but answer to their respective local groups (voters of both Parties and Independents in some cases) - not a national organization.
 
  • #83
OmCheeto said:
I almost threw up.

I would like to remind people that I've been without cable for the last 18 months now, and this is actually the first time I've listened to [STRIKE]Sarah[/STRIKE] Michele Bachmann speak.

And thank you Jimmy for making me watch that. If she's our new leadership, I think I'll just cash out my whole portfolio and move to Waterworld.

Who the **** elects these kind of ******* morons?

OmCheeto, you’re the last person I want to make any sicker, but at the same time I think it is good if as many people as possible understands what we’re dealing with here:

Michele Bachmann Says The Darndest Things

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9bvreW08X0
MicheleBachmann2012.PNG



Did I hear someone (who seems to have lost it completely) mention "Breivik-inspired rhetoric"?? :bugeye:
 
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  • #84
DevilsAvocado said:
Did I hear someone (who seems to have lost it completely) mention "Breivik-inspired rhetoric"?? :bugeye:

It's nonsense like this comment that the Left has trouble competing on talk radio - IMO.
(I mean without a Government subsidy of course)
 
  • #85
WhoWee said:
It's nonsense like this comment that the Left has trouble competing on talk radio - IMO.

Agree, Michele Bachmann is pure nonsense, but IMHO the problem is she’s Running for President, and before even starting the campaign – she’s involved in a possible threat to the global economy.

Asia is opening in 1½ hr, let’s cross our fingers...

Anyhow, thanks a lot WhoWee for bringing up talk radio! Here comes the truth (@0:59) about "Breivik-inspired rhetoric" and extreme rightwing fanatics:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bscp0ou3o40
 
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  • #86
DevilsAvocado said:
Agree, Michele Bachmann is pure nonsense, but IMHO the problem is she’s Running for President, and before even starting the campaign – she’s involved in a possible threat to the global economy.

Asia is opening in 1½ hr, let’s cross our fingers...

Anyhow, thanks a lot WhoWee for bringing up talk radio! Here comes the truth (@0:59) about "Breivik-inspired rhetoric" and extreme rightwing fanatics:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bscp0ou3o40


I already offered to defend the TEA Party against Van Jones in the other thread maybe you should post this over there or in the Breivik thread and move on?

Btw - that was a REALLY lame attack on Beck - and a mis-characterization of the content (by YOU).
 
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  • #87
WhoWee said:
I already offered to defend the TEA Party against Van Jones in the other thread maybe you should post this over there or in the Breivik thread and move on?

I understand this is embarrassing for you and maybe for someone else in this thread (unless completely lost), however I did not bring this "topic" up, nevertheless it’s always nice to stick to the facts – don’t you think?

WhoWee said:
Btw - that was a REALLY lame attack on Beck - and a mis-characterization of the content (by YOU).

WhoWee, I do feel sorry for you, honestly. You probably only have good and sincere intentions in actually "saving the economy", but the people you protect (ad absurdum)... on the road to this goal, turns the whole thing into a 'joke'... I’m afraid...

I didn’t attack Glen Beck. I just provided the sound of the man accusing the poor teenage victims on the Utoya Island for being "Hitler Youths".

There’s no point in attacking a person who does "the job" himself, right?
 
  • #88
1 min left too market openings in Asia... will this just be a "silly whisper" or a "Great Depression Thunderstorm"...?
 
  • #89
DevilsAvocado said:
I understand this is embarrassing for you and maybe for someone else in this thread (unless completely lost), however I did not bring this "topic" up, nevertheless it’s always nice to stick to the facts – don’t you think?



WhoWee, I do feel sorry for you, honestly. You probably only have good and sincere intentions in actually "saving the economy", but the people you protect (ad absurdum)... on the road to this goal, turns the whole thing into a 'joke'... I’m afraid...

I didn’t attack Glen Beck. I just provided the sound of the man accusing the poor teenage victims on the Utoya Island for being "Hitler Youths".

There’s no point in attacking a person who does "the job" himself, right?

Actually, what you did was present a clip from an (apparently) low budget (perhaps) college radio show that played a very select and chopped Glen Beck clip. Worse yet, you did it in a thread regarding the "S&P Downgrades US To AA+, Outlook Negative" - is it because your primary intent is to be a troll?
 
  • #90
russ_watters said:
... The irony of Bush's bailout (TARP) is it shows up as spending on his balance sheet and income on Obama's. It's a trillion dollar misleading swing in their balance sheets!

I didn't like it, but it was ultimately completely painless...
Well yes TARP was ~painless to the government's balance sheet, but it remains to be seen if the bailouts contributed to even worse behaviour in the future via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard" (and perhaps that is what you meant).
 
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  • #91
WhoWee said:
Actually, what you did was present a clip from an (apparently) low budget (perhaps) college radio show that played a very select and chopped Glen Beck clip. Worse yet, you did it in a thread regarding the "S&P Downgrades US To AA+, Outlook Negative" - is it because your primary intent is to be a troll?

Don’t make it worse than it already is. Do you want me to post the CNN video on the same topic? And give you a chance accuse them for "select and chop" as well??

Please WhoWee, drop it. You’re making a fool of yourself (completely unnecessary IMHO).

Didn’t you tell me to move on??
 
  • #93
DevilsAvocado said:
Don’t make it worse than it already is. Do you want me to post the CNN video on the same topic? And give you a chance accuse them for "select and chop" as well??

Please WhoWee, drop it. You’re making a fool of yourself (completely unnecessary IMHO).

Didn’t you tell me to move on??

I requested you move it to an appropriate thread.
 
  • #94
  • #95
DevilsAvocado said:
Did I hear someone (who seems to have lost it completely) mention "Breivik-inspired rhetoric"?? :bugeye:

congrats, you've found your intellectual equal in Michele Bachmann.

also, you think this is what she thinks the markets are responding to?
uYzUL.jpg
 
  • #96
:zzz:
 
  • #97
It looks like this is going to be a 'battle' of trustworthiness between S&P and the U.S. government. Timothy Geithner has already started:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Geithner-SampP-showed-apf-713857951.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode="

What happens if the market, Moody's and Fitch completely ignores S&P, and not much happens?

John Chambers looking for a new employer...?
 
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  • #98
DevilsAvocado said:
It looks like this is going to be a 'battle' of trustworthiness between S&P and the U.S. government. Timothy Geithner has already started:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Geithner-SampP-showed-apf-713857951.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode="

What happens if the market, Moody's and Fitch completely ignores S&P, and not much happens?

John Chambers looking for a new employer...?

Chris Wallace asked David Beers directly about the $2Trillion difference in calculations.
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2011/08/07/highlights-fox-news-sunday-interviews-with-sps-david-beers-rep-paul-ryan-and-legg-masons-bill-miller/#more-73463

"Q: The White House isn’t happy – they say you made a $2 trillion overstatement and then changed your justification for the decision…

Beers: “[That's a] complete misrepresentation of what happened. When we made the modification, we did so after talking to the Treasury; it doesn’t change the fact that even with an agreement, that the underlining debt is building and is rising and will continue to rise.”"


Is it wise for the Administration to engage S&P in this manner?
 
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  • #99
WhoWee said:
Is it wise for the Administration to engage S&P in this manner?

I have no idea WhoWee, sorry.
 
  • #100
9:27pm edt

N225 -1.30%
NZ50 -2.24%
STI -2.42%
KS11 -1.46%
TWII -1.54%
 

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