News S&P Downgrades US To AA+, Outlook Negative

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The discussion centers on the U.S. credit rating downgrade by Standard & Poor's (S&P), attributed to perceived weaknesses in American political institutions and fiscal policy. Participants argue that the downgrade reflects a failure to effectively manage spending and debt, with particular blame directed at both major political parties for their inability to make substantial cuts. The Tea Party is mentioned as a group that attempted to address these issues but faced significant opposition. There is a consensus that the political gridlock, especially surrounding the debt ceiling negotiations, contributed to the downgrade, with some arguing that threats of default were exaggerated. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of government spending, the hoarding of cash by businesses due to uncertainty, and the historical context of fiscal responsibility across administrations. Overall, the dialogue highlights a deep frustration with the current political climate and its impact on economic stability.
  • #151
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoosS9TJ0NQ
 
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  • #152
Yes the demand for gold is going up. The useful question is why is the demand for gold going up? Sudden big demand in electronics? Also while Schiff forecasts inflation, he seems to withhold the hyperinflation call unless and until foreign states stop buying US debt. He doesn't use the prefix hyper- in the video up thread.
 
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  • #153
mheslep said:
Yes the demand for gold is going up. The useful question is why is the demand for gold going up?

The demand for all safe assets is going up. This has nothing to do with inflation- look at the break even between the 10 year TIP and the 10 year treasuries. The market is not expecting inflation.

People are craving safe assets however. Hence, high demand for safe bonds of all kinds and high demand for gold, etc.
 
  • #154
ParticleGrl said:
The demand for all safe assets is going up. ...
Yes, what is 'safe' about them and thus placing them in demand?
 
  • #155
Storm is still raging on the markets.
Seems befitting:
 
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  • #156
mheslep said:
Yes, what is 'safe' about them and thus placing them in demand?

There is no credit risk and little likelihood of supply shocks? Still, when (hopefully) things start turning around, and people move out of gold, a lot of people will lose money.

IF people are using it to hedge inflation, wouldn't the break even between the TIPs and the standard treasuries be large? After all, if the market expects inflation, we should see it across the board.
 
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  • #159
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  • #161
... however I know this fake won’t do it ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoosS9TJ0NQ

I’m speechless.

When you thought the Tea Psychosis had reached the ceiling, Bill Still appears and run his balloon head thru the birdhouse roof!

What is this, Hillbilly Economics? One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest Economics?

Probably one of the most hilarious morons I have ever seen, and at 5:25 even the bird gets enough – Cuckoo has left the building! ... Or is it a sitting duck!? Muhahaha! :biggrin:

And it gets even better:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htTkuV-nuSI

(The "Swedish Saving Banks" has balance sheet of 0.1% of the market)

"It’s a great start to lead Sweden to a sustainable economic future as the rest of the world sinks into deepening depression."​

HELP! I can’t see! Laughing tears all over my face! HAHALOLHAHA! :smile:

This guy is actually a communist! LOL! More communist than any extreme lefty you could find in Sweden! HAHA! He wants us to start using the Old & Safe plate money again:

272px-Swedish_plate_money_in_the_British_Museum.jpg


LOL! I’M DYING! :smile::smile::smile:

And here comes Grande Finale, for those who want to destroy 2 hrs of their life - The Secret of Oz!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI

You don’t need to watch it all, already at 0:01:00 Buffalo Bill explains the secret about The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, and why the economy is so bad...

AMAZING! MUHAHAHA! :smile::smile::smile:

I don’t know much about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_North_(Christian_Reconstructionist)" , but at least he has a Ph.D. in History, which is more than Hillbilly Bill will ever get:
http://www.garynorth.com/public/7262.cfm

Sitting Ducks: Why the Tea Party Movement Is Vulnerable to Economic Charlatans, Ignoramuses, and Statists

Gary North
...
Bill Still is Ellen Brown without footnotes. He gets a wider hearing, because he has produced videos. Videos are easier to watch than books are to read. They take much less time; they take much less intellectual commitment; and they do not require any degree of self-discipline to view them. I do not expect that anybody in Congress is going to pass a law, or fight a law, based on having watched a Bill Still video.

There are thousands of people in the Tea Party movement who have been seduced by an economic infiltrator from the Left: Ellen Brown. If the infiltration process is this easy, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the Tea Party movement. These people have not done enough reading, and they are ignorant about the basics of economic cause and effect. But, then again, in the realm of monetary policy and theory, so was Milton Friedman.
 
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  • #162
DevilsAvocado said:
... however I know this fake won’t do it ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoosS9TJ0NQ

I’m speechless.

When you thought the Tea Psychosis had reached the ceiling, Bill Still appears and run his balloon head thru the birdhouse roof!

What is this, Hillbilly Economics? One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest Economics?

Probably one of the most hilarious morons I have ever seen, and at 5:25 even the bird gets enough – Cuckoo has left the building! ... Or is it a sitting duck!? Muhahaha! :biggrin:

And it gets even better:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htTkuV-nuSI

(The "Swedish Saving Banks" has balance sheet of 0.1% of the market)

"It’s a great start to lead Sweden to a sustainable economic future as the rest of the world sinks into deepening depression."​

HELP! I can’t see! Laughing tears all over my face! HAHALOLHAHA! :smile:

This guy is actually a communist! LOL! More communist than any extreme lefty you could find in Sweden! HAHA! He wants us to start using the Old & Safe plate money again:

272px-Swedish_plate_money_in_the_British_Museum.jpg


LOL! I’M DYING! :smile::smile::smile:

And here comes Grande Finale, for those who want to destroy 2 hrs of their life - The Secret of Oz!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI

You don’t need to watch it all, already at 0:01:00 Buffalo Bill explains the secret about The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, and why the economy is so bad...

AMAZING! MUHAHAHA! :smile::smile::smile:

I don’t know much about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_North_(Christian_Reconstructionist)" , but at least he has a Ph.D. in History, which is more than Hillbilly Bill will ever get:


For those among us that don't speak whatever language you've uttered - please translate or support?
 
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  • #163
I hope you understand the words by Gary North:

There are thousands of people in the Tea Party movement who have been seduced by economic infiltrators from the Left.

Bill Still is one of these infiltrators, and his so called "economics" is nothing but a fairytale joke.
 
  • #164
DevilsAvocado said:
I hope you understand the words by Gary North:

There are thousands of people in the Tea Party movement who have been seduced by economic infiltrators from the Left.

Bill Still is one of these infiltrators, and his so called "economics" is nothing but a fairytale joke.

The TEA Party movement wants to hold politicians accountable. They believe in no taxation without representation - which means don't spend my money unless I understand and agree with your plan. They also believe in maximizing the efficiency of Government - now that (I agree) is a radical idea.

Given the importance of free speech, I'm sure anyone that joins the TEA Party would be encouraged to put forth their additional ideas - it doesn't mean the ir ideas will be widely accepted though.
 
  • #165
what have we been infiltrated by?

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3

The Fed Audit

July 21, 2011

The first top-to-bottom audit of the Federal Reserve uncovered eye-popping new details about how the U.S. provided a whopping $16 trillion in secret loans to bail out American and foreign banks and businesses during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. An amendment by Sen. Bernie Sanders to the Wall Street reform law passed one year ago this week directed the Government Accountability Office to conduct the study. "As a result of this audit, we now know that the Federal Reserve provided more than $16 trillion in total financial assistance to some of the largest financial institutions and corporations in the United States and throughout the world," said Sanders. "This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you're-on-your-own individualism for everyone else."

Among the investigation's key findings is that the Fed unilaterally provided trillions of dollars in financial assistance to foreign banks and corporations from South Korea to Scotland, according to the GAO report. "No agency of the United States government should be allowed to bailout a foreign bank or corporation without the direct approval of Congress and the president," Sanders said.

The non-partisan, investigative arm of Congress also determined that the Fed lacks a comprehensive system to deal with conflicts of interest, despite the serious potential for abuse. In fact, according to the report, the Fed provided conflict of interest waivers to employees and private contractors so they could keep investments in the same financial institutions and corporations that were given emergency loans.

For example, the CEO of JP Morgan Chase served on the New York Fed's board of directors at the same time that his bank received more than $390 billion in financial assistance from the Fed. Moreover, JP Morgan Chase served as one of the clearing banks for the Fed's emergency lending programs.

In another disturbing finding, the GAO said that on Sept. 19, 2008, William Dudley, who is now the New York Fed president, was granted a waiver to let him keep investments in AIG and General Electric at the same time AIG and GE were given bailout funds. One reason the Fed did not make Dudley sell his holdings, according to the audit, was that it might have created the appearance of a conflict of interest.

To Sanders, the conclusion is simple. "No one who works for a firm receiving direct financial assistance from the Fed should be allowed to sit on the Fed's board of directors or be employed by the Fed," he said.

The investigation also revealed that the Fed outsourced most of its emergency lending programs to private contractors, many of which also were recipients of extremely low-interest and then-secret loans.

The Fed outsourced virtually all of the operations of their emergency lending programs to private contractors like JP Morgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, and Wells Fargo. The same firms also received trillions of dollars in Fed loans at near-zero interest rates. Altogether some two-thirds of the contracts that the Fed awarded to manage its emergency lending programs were no-bid contracts. Morgan Stanley was given the largest no-bid contract worth $108.4 million to help manage the Fed bailout of AIG.

A more detailed GAO investigation into potential conflicts of interest at the Fed is due on Oct. 18, but Sanders said one thing already is abundantly clear. "The Federal Reserve must be reformed to serve the needs of working families, not just CEOs on Wall Street."

To read the GAO report, click here.
 
  • #166
~~

Proton Soup said:
what have we been infiltrated by?

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3

Umm... I take it, that it's quiet, is because everyone is reading the 266 page document?

What's the name of that new guy that J.Stewart made fun of because he didn't want to read 2000 page long bills? I think that dude had a point.

hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_novels" I ever read was Atlas Shrugged. Incredible book.

Wait! I think I've gone off topic. :blushing:

Today, my favorite stock went up ~50%, and I made ~$500 in one hour.

The S&P downgrade is a freakin' ploy to freak out amateurs.

Invest in the future.

please...
 
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  • #167
WhoWee said:
The TEA Party movement wants to hold politicians accountable. They believe in no taxation without representation - which means don't spend my money unless I understand and agree with your plan. They also believe in maximizing the efficiency of Government - now that (I agree) is a radical idea.

Given the importance of free speech, I'm sure anyone that joins the TEA Party would be encouraged to put forth their additional ideas - it doesn't mean the ir ideas will be widely accepted though.

Why do you feel that your ideas are more important than other Americans? I see this a lot with 'take our country back' rhetoric used by tea party. But does the country not also belong to me and others who disagree with the tea party view?
 
  • #168


OmCheeto said:
Umm... I take it, that it's quiet, is because everyone is reading the 266 page document?

What's the name of that new guy that J.Stewart made fun of because he didn't want to read 2000 page long bills? I think that dude had a point.

hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_novels" I ever read was Atlas Shrugged. Incredible book.

Wait! I think I've gone off topic. :blushing:

Today, my favorite stock went up ~50%, and I made ~$500 in one hour.

The S&P downgrade is a freakin' ploy to freak out amateurs.

Invest in the future.

please...

You can make a lot of money right now if your a long term investor.
 
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  • #169


OmCheeto said:
Umm... I take it, that it's quiet, is because everyone is reading the 266 page document?

What's the name of that new guy that J.Stewart made fun of because he didn't want to read 2000 page long bills? I think that dude had a point.

hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_novels" I ever read was Atlas Shrugged. Incredible book.

Wait! I think I've gone off topic. :blushing:

Today, my favorite stock went up ~50%, and I made ~$500 in one hour.

The S&P downgrade is a freakin' ploy to freak out amateurs.

Invest in the future.

please...

yeah, or what percentage of legislation is actually written by congressmen vs written by staff and helpful suggestions from lobbyists? i think the bigger problem is that simply too much law is passed. good law shouldn't require so much revision. instead of cheap walmart law that breaks every year, let's invest in durable goods.

i also read atlas shrugged. it's the literary equivalent of a physics textbook. you may gain some valuable insights, but it mostly feels like work.

and i haven't read the report yet, either. what i am interested in is the conflicts of interest, the magic of huge piles of money out of nowhere, and the fact that it takes an act of congress just to get an audit and get even a clue of what is going on.
 
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  • #170
SixNein said:
Why do you feel that your ideas are more important than other Americans? I see this a lot with 'take our country back' rhetoric used by tea party. But does the country not also belong to me and others who disagree with the tea party view?

If you pay taxes and want to bury your head in the sand - it's your choice - I want to know what they are doing my tax dollars.
 
  • #171


Proton Soup said:
yeah, or what percentage of legislation is actually written by congressmen vs written by staff and helpful suggestions from lobbyists? i think the bigger problem is that simply too much law is passed. good law shouldn't require so much revision. instead of cheap walmart law that breaks every year, let's invest in durable goods.

i also read atlas shrugged. it's the literary equivalent of a physics textbook. you may gain some valuable insights, but it mostly feels like work.

and i haven't read the report yet, either. what i am interested in is the conflicts of interest, the magic of huge piles of money out of nowhere, and the fact that it takes an act of congress just to get an audit and get even a clue of what is going on.

Newt Gingrich cited the report in the debate tonight and called for a thorough review of Fed activities.
 
  • #172
WhoWee said:
If you pay taxes and want to bury your head in the sand - it's your choice - I want to know what they are doing my tax dollars.

Just look up the federal budget.
 
  • #173
WhoWee, this is where I think you and most tea partiers go off the rails.

WhoWee said:
The TEA Party movement wants to hold politicians accountable.

So what; Democrats don't? I think the tea party is mostly nuts but I too want to hold politicians accountable. One thing has nothing to do with the other except that tea partiers think they are special somehow. Guess what; we all have the same basic complaints. My view is that the tea party wants all the wrong things for all the right reasons.

They believe in no taxation without representation - which means don't spend my money unless I understand and agree with your plan.

No, that is not what it means. It means you can elect a representitive and two Senators. It doesn't mean that you personally have to agree with every plan put forth. In fact, the nature of our system DEMANDS that we all make compromises. This is a concept essential to both liberty and democracy.

Do you elect leaders or puppets?

They also believe in maximizing the efficiency of Government - now that (I agree) is a radical idea.

Again, this is nothing but some kind of superiority complex in play. Do you really think anyone wants an inefficient government? Where the tea party and I part ways is not a matter of fundamental beliefs, but has everything to do tea partiers making ridiculous assumptions about everyone else. In reality you have said absolutely nothing here that we couldn't take out of a George Orwell novel.

Given the importance of free speech, I'm sure anyone that joins the TEA Party would be encouraged to put forth their additional ideas - it doesn't mean the ir ideas will be widely accepted though.

You haven't said anything. What ideas? Honestly, what I see is an entire movement dedicated to the very policies that nearly just destroyed the global economy, and still might, all wrapped in a flag.

And just to add cream to the tea:

When we needed to save the banking system from complete collapse, it was the tea party that led the fight against saving it.

When we need to balance the budget, it is the tea party that leads the fight against raising taxes on anyone - no matter how rich they may be - and instead demand immediate, draconian austerity measures that would futher weaken the already faltering recovery, and would affect the poor and working class the most. It looks to me like the ultimate propaganda machine for big business. Poor GE. How will they ever manage?

It was the tea party's own Michelle Bachman who said we should refuse to raise the debt ceiling - absolute lunacy by any measure! But there she is; a leading candidate.

At every turn, what I see is a movement bent on destroying the economy.
 
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  • #174
The irony of this coupled with claims of Obama's so-called "flowery speeches" is too much sometimes. More than anyone, the tea party is driven by hyperbole.
 
  • #175


SixNein said:
You can make a lot of money right now if your a long term investor.

"right now"? if you're long? :rolleyes::wink::smile::blushing::smile:

I was indoctrinated to investing by someone who I thought was a stock broker. Turns out he was merely a risk manager for one of the largest holding companies on the west coast. Little sh*t wasn't even 30. Now he's the director!

I think I absorbed some of what he was trying to tell me, as the following, is my mantra:
I never attempt to make money on the stock market. I buy on the assumption that they could close the market the next day and not reopen it for five years.

Unfortunately for the country, my wish from a couple of years ago seems to be coming true:

OmCheeto said:
...I'd have preferred an L shaped recovery myself, as I have 8 years to continue investing before I retire. But that's just being greedy. :devil:

:frown:
 
  • #176


OmCheeto said:
"right now"? if you're long? :rolleyes::wink::smile::blushing::smile:

I was indoctrinated to investing by someone who I thought was a stock broker. Turns out he was merely a risk manager for one of the largest holding companies on the west coast. Little sh*t wasn't even 30. Now he's the director!

I think I absorbed some of what he was trying to tell me, as the following, is my mantra:Unfortunately for the country, my wish from a couple of years ago seems to be coming true:
:frown:

Some companies are trading under their value, but one may have to hold the stocks a while before one sees a return.

Pigs gamble, and investors research. I wonder how many people invest without even reading the balance sheet of the investment.
 
  • #177


SixNein said:
Some companies are trading under their value, but one may have to hold the stocks a while before one sees a return.

Pigs gamble, and investors research. I wonder how many people invest without even reading the balance sheet of the investment.

One of my facebook stock buddies called what happened the other day a "suckers rally".

I could not find an antonym term. Since they didn't have a name for it, I assumed they didn't want anyone to know it existed, and hence why I increased my holdings in my favorite stock by 25% last week.

I was going to hold a poll, and try and give this phenomena a name. But I'm not very creative, and the only thing I could come up with was "a sucker's slump", which I defined as: "A downturn in the market, sparked by a non-event*, which suckers wimps to sell their stocks, sucking down all stock prices in a whirlpool kind of vortex thingy, giving people named OmCheeto a really nice bargain on a stock they'd been planning on buying and holding for at least 5 to 10 years, because this is going to be an L-shaped recovery."

*I consider the S&P downgrade a non-event. The fact that hundreds of millions of people might disagree with me, only makes me smile. :devil:
 
  • #178


OmCheeto said:
One of my facebook stock buddies called what happened the other day a "suckers rally".

I could not find an antonym term. Since they didn't have a name for it, I assumed they didn't want anyone to know it existed, and hence why I increased my holdings in my favorite stock by 25% last week.

I was going to hold a poll, and try and give this phenomena a name. But I'm not very creative, and the only thing I could come up with was "a sucker's slump", which I defined as: "A downturn in the market, sparked by a non-event*, which suckers wimps to sell their stocks, sucking down all stock prices in a whirlpool kind of vortex thingy, giving people named OmCheeto a really nice bargain on a stock they'd been planning on buying and holding for at least 5 to 10 years, because this is going to be an L-shaped recovery."

*I consider the S&P downgrade a non-event. The fact that hundreds of millions of people might disagree with me, only makes me smile. :devil:


I agree.. and will add the following...
Even though prices are coming down some, one should still heavily research investments. One should understand his or her investments.
 
  • #179


SixNein said:
I agree.. and will add the following...
Even though prices are coming down some, one should still heavily research investments. One should understand his or her investments.
Not my strong point, which is why lots of my money is in mutuals. I hope and pray that the managers of my mutuals buy quality investments like crazed lawn-sale ladies when they think that the market is near the bottom, in every relevant sector.
 
  • #180
Ivan Seeking said:
WhoWee, this is where I think you and most tea partiers go off the rails.

So what; Democrats don't? I think the tea party is mostly nuts but I too want to hold politicians accountable. One thing has nothing to do with the other except that tea partiers think they are special somehow. Guess what; we all have the same basic complaints. My view is that the tea party wants all the wrong things for all the right reasons.

No, that is not what it means. It means you can elect a representitive and two Senators. It doesn't mean that you personally have to agree with every plan put forth. In fact, the nature of our system DEMANDS that we all make compromises. This is a concept essential to both liberty and democracy.

Do you elect leaders or puppets?

Again, this is nothing but some kind of superiority complex in play. Do you really think anyone wants an inefficient government? Where the tea party and I part ways is not a matter of fundamental beliefs, but has everything to do tea partiers making ridiculous assumptions about everyone else. In reality you have said absolutely nothing here that we couldn't take out of a George Orwell novel.

You haven't said anything. What ideas? Honestly, what I see is an entire movement dedicated to the very policies that nearly just destroyed the global economy, and still might, all wrapped in a flag.

And just to add cream to the tea:

When we needed to save the banking system from complete collapse, it was the tea party that led the fight against saving it.

When we need to balance the budget, it is the tea party that leads the fight against raising taxes on anyone - no matter how rich they may be - and instead demand immediate, draconian austerity measures that would futher weaken the already faltering recovery, and would affect the poor and working class the most. It looks to me like the ultimate propaganda machine for big business. Poor GE. How will they ever manage?

It was the tea party's own Michelle Bachman who said we should refuse to raise the debt ceiling - absolute lunacy by any measure! But there she is; a leading candidate.

At every turn, what I see is a movement bent on destroying the economy.

First of all Ivan - I'm not running around with a TEA Party membership in my pocket. I'm also not going to defend Bachman regarding the debt ceiling. However, just because (we) don't agree with everything she said - doesn't mean they are completely wrong in their attempts to actually DO something about the disaster at hand in Washington.

Do you honestly think we can continue to let politicians say whatever they want to get elected and not hold them accountable? You say you want accountability - then complain when a group demands it - does that make sense?

Last Fall, I actually knocked on doors to support a candidate for Governor in my state - after the (now former) Governor showed up at a large gathering of Medicare insurance professionals and lectured us (I was in the group) about the healthcare system. He clearly didn't have a grasp of the subject - but most groups wouldn't have known that he was just repeating talking points. Trying to argue specifics about Medicare with a group of (maybe 200) people who work in the system on a daily basis was a big mistake.

Then he went on to lecture us about Medicaid - which was an even bigger mistake. He was familiar with Medicaid in 1 state - our group was familiar with Medicaid nationwide (average person in the group licensed/certified in 25+ states). Unfortunately, the Congressman also proved to be even less knowledgeable about Medicaid than Medicare.

If the leaders I elect turn out to be idiots - I'm going to support a new leader - not put up with the idiot. That's not a superiority complex - they are paid well and are spending our money - I expect them to be competent and trustworthy. Is that wrong?

As for Government efficiency - do you honestly believe there are consequences for mismanagement and waste? It also bothers me that so many Government workers are unionized - and these unions can influence elections.

As for poor GE (they finance a lot of the corporate jets btw) - their CEO is Obama's jobs guy - they've traveled the world together to generate business for GE (there were other companies represented on the trip to India) - so please clarify your point about GE?

Btw - you forgot to mention the $45Billion tax credit Obama gave GM (after the union was bailed out at taxpayer expense).
 
  • #181
WhoWee said:
If the leaders I elect turn out to be idiots - I'm going to support a new leader - not put up with the idiot. That's not a superiority complex - they are paid well and are spending our money - I expect them to be competent and trustworthy. Is that wrong?

Absolutely not, I think that’s the whole point in a democracy.

I could be wrong, but AFAIK Michele Bachmann is the Tea Party presidential candidate, and too most people she looks both incompetent and untrustworthy, too put it mildly:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4SuzEWI_0o

So, how is this compatible with what you’ve just said? I don’t get it?
 
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  • #182
I note Mathews says "... all those guys [founding fathers] had slaves ..." which is false, and from that statement one could also try to make a specious argument similar to Mathews' that in so saying he is trying to reinvent American history.
 
  • #183
slavery is still legal in the United States as punishment for crime, as stated in the 13th Amendment itself.
 
  • #184
WhoWee said:
As for poor GE (they finance a lot of the corporate jets btw) - their CEO is Obama's jobs guy - they've traveled the world together to generate business for GE (there were other companies represented on the trip to India) - so please clarify your point about GE?

Btw - you forgot to mention the $45Billion tax credit Obama gave GM (after the union was bailed out at taxpayer expense).

That was a bit underhanded, wasn't it? Particularly when GM uses (abuses) it's global presence to hide income from U.S. taxes in the first place? Since then a lot of other companies, and some local and state governments have pulled the "woe are we - we will die without a bailout" ploy.

I used to own a GM vehicle. Now I have a GM receiver (hitch) implant in my Ford that's in upside down in protest of the GM debacle.
 
  • #185
DoggerDan said:
That was a bit underhanded, wasn't it? Particularly when GM uses (abuses) it's global presence to hide income from U.S. taxes in the first place? Since then a lot of other companies, and some local and state governments have pulled the "woe are we - we will die without a bailout" ploy.

I used to own a GM vehicle. Now I have a GM receiver (hitch) implant in my Ford that's in upside down in protest of the GM debacle.

My wife recently purchased a Ford Fiesta - 42.8 mpg (mostly highway). She loves the car and is spending about $600 less per month on gasoline.
 
  • #186
DevilsAvocado said:
...

... AFAIK Michele Bachmann is the Tea Party presidential candidate, and too most people she looks both incompetent and untrustworthy, too put it mildly:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4SuzEWI_0o

...


Once again, wow...

For some reason, "Lipstick on a Pig" popped into my head after watching that.

hmmm...

"The Teaparty has replaced it's previous pair of pretty lips with a new pair of pretty lips, to spread its schtick. Unfortunately, she's still a Sarah Palin."

...

It is really painful to think I'm surrounded by people who would want someone like either Palin or Bachman to lead this country of ours.

I'm torn between which video to choose to express my emotions:

Help me?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14pIrRclWTY

or Kill me?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B0sFtRTlx4

Odd. An acquaintance of mine, whom I've know for about 15 year, died yesterday in an apparent suicide. I wonder if he watched the Bachman clip.
 
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  • #187
Bachmann is a distraction from the real grassroots frontrunner: Ron Paul.
 
  • #188
Proton Soup said:
Bachmann is a distraction from the real grassroots frontrunner: Ron Paul.

Although I agreed with everything in the one and only video I saw of Ron Paul a while back, I saw another one a few days ago that gave me second thoughts.

Gold standard?

Taxes are theft?

Um, no. I disagree with both.

Just because a metal is shiny, and everyone thinks it has some sort of "magical value", doesn't mean anything to me.

And taxes are simply a method of getting people to pay for things that they would avoid paying for by:

"Pay to poop!? Why I can poop in the back yard fer free! Tuh hell with these darn taxes!"
 
  • #189
DevilsAvocado said:
Absolutely not, I think that’s the whole point in a democracy.

I could be wrong, but AFAIK Michele Bachmann is the Tea Party presidential candidate, and too most people she looks both incompetent and untrustworthy, too put it mildly:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4SuzEWI_0o

So, how is this compatible with what you’ve just said? I don’t get it?


IMO - the Left doesn't want a female President - otherwise Hillary would be the second President Clinton and Bill would be the First Gentleman.
 
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  • #190


OmCheeto said:
sparked by a non-event*

I agree with that too. The underlying facts didn't change one iota, right? Still, after some pondering, that doesn't fully explain the ups and downs of stock markets.

I think the downgrade can also be seen as a somewhat serious indication from the financial markets at politicians to stop the path they are on now and at least try and fix the government debt problem.

In that light, the markets adjusted to a probable future where the deficit gap is made smaller with a series of austerity measures. I.e., the party is ending and less capital will be flowing in the economy from the government. So, yes, the DOW should be lower.

(I didn't look at the videos, so excuses in the case I stated the obvious.)
 
  • #191
mheslep said:
I note Mathews says "... all those guys [founding fathers] had slaves ..." which is false, and from that statement one could also try to make a specious argument similar to Mathews' that in so saying he is trying to reinvent American history.

Yeah sure, if Mathews was running for president, it could be a problem with a falsification of history, but AFAIK he’s not.
 
  • #192
Proton Soup said:
slavery is still legal in the United States as punishment for crime, as stated in the 13th Amendment itself.

Wouldn’t that make Bachman’s false statement an even bigger problem?
 
  • #193
WhoWee said:
IMO - the Left doesn't want a female President - otherwise Hillary would be the second President Clinton and Bill would be the First Gentleman.

No one, not having smoked that tea, will believe this is an answer to my question.
 
  • #194
OmCheeto said:
Once again, wow...

Yup, a never ending story...

OmCheeto said:
For some reason, "Lipstick on a Pig" popped into my head after watching that.

:smile: Read my lips!

[PLAIN]http://killercolours.blogg.se/images/2009/miss_piggy_58893207.jpg

OmCheeto said:
It is really painful to think I'm surrounded by people who would want someone like either Palin or Bachman to lead this country of ours.

I say you have 99.9% understanding and sympathy from Europe. We can’t understand WTF is going on...

OmCheeto said:
I'm torn between which video to choose to express my emotions:

Help me?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14pIrRclWTY

or Kill me?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B0sFtRTlx4

May I present a third option? Laugh at the monster and realize it has a BIG mouth, yes, but in the end it will be alone (cross our fingers)...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3uQSqYzlgY

OmCheeto said:
Odd. An acquaintance of mine, whom I've know for about 15 year, died yesterday in an apparent suicide. I wonder if he watched the Bachman clip.

I’m very sorry to hear that OmCheeto, my condolences. :frown: Let’s hope he never heard about Bachman, she’s definitely not worth dying for...
 
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  • #195
DevilsAvocado said:
No one, not having smoked that tea, will believe this is an answer to my question.

Am I wrong? The Left didn't support Hillary and has brutally attacked both Bachman and Palin on a personal level.
 
  • #196
DevilsAvocado said:
Wouldn’t that make Bachman’s false statement an even bigger problem?

i'm not sure what you mean. i think she was trying to say that there have always been people opposed to slavery in the US. my point is simply, for folks that want to nit pick, that slavery didn't end with Lincoln. we are almost there, but not quite. and if someone would just bother to pick up the ball and run with it, it would be quite a feather in the cap. it's a little funny Obama doesn't pick it up, as he could be the first president to truly end slavery. but this constitutional scholar seems more interested in law and order, and no doubt the prison plantation industry has a bit of say in the matter.
 
  • #197
OmCheeto said:
Although I agreed with everything in the one and only video I saw of Ron Paul a while back, I saw another one a few days ago that gave me second thoughts.

Gold standard?

Taxes are theft?

Um, no. I disagree with both.

Just because a metal is shiny, and everyone thinks it has some sort of "magical value", doesn't mean anything to me.

And taxes are simply a method of getting people to pay for things that they would avoid paying for by:

"Pay to poop!? Why I can poop in the back yard fer free! Tuh hell with these darn taxes!"

yeah, I'm not interested in a gold standard, either. fiat currency is fine with me. if we did peg it to something, it might as well be wheat.

paying to poop is a genuine concern. that's why i support his call to bring the troops home from these meddling wars. we've got a crumbling infrastructure that needs repair, and if we keep spending all our gold on smashing the heads of foreigners, we won't have a pot to poop in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhxwJnPbzt4
 
  • #198
Proton Soup said:
... that's why i support his call to bring the troops home from these meddling wars. ...
I have, let's say, an affinity for Paul's mind-our-own-business foreign affairs and military policies, but I'd like an answer as to what he would do given a known Bin Laden 2.0 in some Remotastan, with plenty of money, tacit support for his training camps from the host government, a couple of blatant attacks on US ships and embassies under his belt, and a clear, repeated public statement that he planned to commit mass murder in the US at the earliest opportunity? What would President Paul do? Give more history lessons on 'blow back' while planes fly into buildings? He's ruled out even sanctions. What would he do if a Hitler 2.0 rolled into the Remotastan's Sudetenland equivalent? When the next million are under massacre in Rwanda 2.0? "Not our concern" doesn't work in the second round of history.
 
  • #199
mheslep said:
I have, let's say, an affinity for Paul's mind-our-own-business foreign affairs and military policies, but I'd like an answer as to what he would do given a known Bin Laden 2.0 in some Remotastan, with plenty of money, tacit support for his training camps from the host government, a couple of blatant attacks on US ships and embassies under his belt, and a clear, repeated public statement that he planned to commit mass murder in the US at the earliest opportunity? What would President Paul do? Give more history lessons on 'blow back' while planes fly into buildings? He's ruled out even sanctions. What would he do if a Hitler 2.0 rolled into the Remotastan's Sudetenland equivalent? When the next million are under massacre in Rwanda 2.0? "Not our concern" doesn't work in the second round of history.

bin laden/al qaeda is a response to meddling. so the first scenario is a question of maintaining the status quo. we knew about bin laden before 9/11. we had been in negotiations with the taliban before 9/11. we asked them to hand him over and they requested evidence of his guilt. we decided to not give evidence and attack them. we kill bin laden, and now we are still fighting a war. what are we really up to? to start another war with iran? why do we want to occupy an entire region and massacre millions?

i'm not sure why you're bringing up Rwanda. suggesting we fight moral wars? Clinton hemmed and hawed and did everything he could to avoid using the word "genocide" when we knew what was going on in Rwanda. did the same thing with Serbia until the concentration camp photos came out. you think if China started massacring Uigurs that we would step in? we've had terrible things going on in Ivory Coast, Sudan, Somalia, and didn't get involved. we got involved in Libya because Libya has oil. sure, asking him what is proper use of the military is a fair question, but argumentum ad hitlerium is disingenuous.
 
  • #200
DevilsAvocado said:
... Laugh at the monster

P.S. :biggrin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eesuH_9bSjM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o6WS5H7xEE
 
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