News Scientists jumping off the warming train

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Over 650 scientists from around the world are challenging the climate claims made by the UN IPCC and Al Gore, as highlighted in a U.S. Senate Minority Report. This report adds approximately 250 dissenting voices in 2008 to the 400 who spoke out in 2007, indicating a significant rise in scientific opposition to mainstream climate narratives. Critics argue that many dissenting scientists lack expertise in climate science, with most being from unrelated fields. The discussion reflects a broader skepticism towards the consensus on man-made global warming, suggesting that the scientific community is becoming increasingly divided. The ongoing debate raises questions about the credibility of climate science and the influence of political agendas.
  • #61
Art said:
By definition hype does not refer to scientific journals, it refers to the mass hysteria the media try to create in their reporting of the matter.
Okay, I thought you were referring to papers "published" in journals, so I thought you were saying that mainstream climatology papers are filled with AGW hype. I'd forgotten that the word 'publish' has a broader meaning.
 
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  • #62
Mean while back to the topic,

The U.S. Senate report is the latest evidence of the growing groundswell of scientific opposition rising to challenge the UN and Gore. Scientific meetings are now being dominated by a growing number of skeptical scientists.

How big is this (groundswell), should all the scientists in this forum take a poll?
 
  • #63
wolram said:
Mean while back to the topic,

The U.S. Senate report is the latest evidence of the growing groundswell of scientific opposition rising to challenge the UN and Gore. Scientific meetings are now being dominated by a growing number of skeptical scientists.

How big is this (groundswell), should all the scientists in this forum take a poll?

I think it's difficult to distinguish scientific groundswell from political groundswell and I question even the relevance of it.

For instance basing a perception of "groundswell" on a politically motivated and adopted report, (adopted by political ideologues I might add), looks to be less than prudent. It's not that it's necessarily invalid science, but rather I think it is a question of what science it actually represents.

Wouldn't we all be better served to be considering a groundswell of actual objective evidence, developing a preponderance and moving toward a no shadow of a doubt, than pondering its popularity, which I suspect is colored by political prejudice, admitted or not?
 
  • #64
wolram said:
Mean while back to the topic,

The U.S. Senate report is the latest evidence of the growing groundswell of scientific opposition rising to challenge the UN and Gore.
Al Gore is not a scientist. Scientists do not need to rise up in opposition to him. At least, that's what I think.

How big is this (groundswell), should all the scientists in this forum take a poll?
How many people here are actually intimately familiar with a lot of the literature and methods of climate science. I think Andre probably is, and that's about it. If you want a poll, ask your question and I'll tell you what Andre's answer will be. :wink:
 
  • #65
Andre said:
Really? The total number of people that died during WW-II was estimated to be anywhere in the order of magnitude of40-75 million on a total world population of problably some 2billion:

I suspect that a next global war can be much more efficient than just a few 10's of millions. Though resulting crop collapses, and energy shortfalls can likely do even better.

The interesting thing about the graph is that it shows the "less developed" apparently don't progress to "developed". The question then is whether the discomfort they experience will be due to extreme factors (food, medicine, energy, violence) or becoming more developed and advanced and flattening through factors related to enlightenment as the developed nations tend to exhibit in the chart.
 
  • #66
LowlyPion said:
The interesting thing about the graph is that it shows the "less developed" apparently don't progress to "developed". The question then is whether the discomfort they experience will be due to extreme factors (food, medicine, energy, violence) or becoming more developed and advanced and flattening through factors related to enlightenment as the developed nations tend to exhibit in the chart.
You NEED to watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4237353244338529080
 
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  • #67
LowlyPion said:
We can always find less palatable ways to reach a sustainable humankind loading. Free markets is one way. Those without food and energy ... well. War is another.

Um.. That was intended as sarcasm. How you've managed to mix global warming, evangelicals, homosexuality, and population growth in one bag is far more than I want to know.

Regardless of how though, we know eventually that it must be bounded. And regardless of what the pressures are that will result in such bounding, it will surely be accompanied by great unpleasantness whatever it may be - because unpleasantness is apparently the only way I see that humankind will likely ever agree to limit itself.

Guess what?, there are examples around the world of negative population growth, industrialized countries that are not the result of world totalitarian pressure. I don't share your progressive elitism.
 
  • #68
The total thermal energy in atmosphere of the Earth is function of the radiated energy from the sun. So the temperature of Earth is mainly affected by sun.
 
  • #69
Jang Jin Hong said:
The total thermal energy in atmosphere of the Earth is function of the radiated energy from the sun. So the temperature of Earth is mainly affected by sun.

It's a function of the energy absorbed from the sun, as well as the energy radiated by the Earth.
 
  • #70
Gokul43201 said:
You NEED to watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4237353244338529080

Thanks. That was an interesting exposition.
 
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  • #71
Gokul43201 said:
You NEED to watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4237353244338529080
Wow, any idea what data display package he's using there? I've never seen it before.
 
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  • #72
Gapminder - Trendalizer

http://www.gapminder.org/about-gapminder/

You can play with an online version of it at the Gapminder Home link from the website linked above. Really neat, ain't it?

Thanks to arildno, for first posting this link here.
 
  • #73
hmmm, this global warming is sure a pain in the... neck. Snow in Louisiana? Many of us layfolk are going to have to see some actual warming in order to jump on the AGW train.
 
  • #74
Gokul43201 said:
Gapminder - Trendalizer

http://www.gapminder.org/about-gapminder/

You can play with an online version of it at the Gapminder Home link from the website linked above. Really neat, ain't it?

Thanks to arildno, for first posting this link here.
Oh, that is Rosling's own creation then.

Edit: so hitting play over time I notice something particularly spooky. Clearly various countries, as outliers, here and there, have their mortality rates spike with wars and other reversals of fortune. But there is one instant in time where one can see the survival rate of basically the entire world drop markedly, together: the 1918 flu pandemic.
 
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  • #75
drankin said:
hmmm, this global warming is sure a pain in the... neck. Snow in Louisiana? Many of us layfolk are going to have to see some actual warming in order to jump on the AGW train.
Have you seen any actual wavefunctions? Please let me know when you do, so I can open a door to the quantum mechanics train.
 
  • #76
Gokul43201 said:
Al Gore is not a scientist. Scientists do not need to rise up in opposition to him. At least, that's what I think.

How many people here are actually intimately familiar with a lot of the literature and methods of climate science. I think Andre probably is, and that's about it. If you want a poll, ask your question and I'll tell you what Andre's answer will be. :wink:


I agree, may be Andre is the only one who's vote would carry any weight, i all so think it is wrong for an uninformed person to criticize the science.
This is why i thought looking for a trend would be worth while, if there is a trend for scientists to leave the IPCC, then to me that would suggest being a member is not helping their career.
 
  • #77
wolram said:
I agree, may be Andre is the only one who's vote would carry any weight, i all so think it is wrong for an uninformed person to criticize the science.
This is why i thought looking for a trend would be worth while, if there is a trend for scientists to leave the IPCC, then to me that would suggest being a member is not helping their career.

I wouldn't think the one would have to do with the other.

Unless of course your science and your thinking is based more on consensus than on determining and establishing facts.

Hopefully the IPCC isn't filled with the former and devoid of the latter.
 
  • #78
i keep seeing this term passed around: "climate science". what i don't see is ABET accreditation of "climate science" as a curriculum. when i go to google for assistance and search for accreditation "climate science", i see a lot of message board posters referring to "accredited climate scientists", but this seems to be synonymous with "people i agree with".

my impression, until convinced otherwise, is that "climate science" has no standards, rigor, or discipline. a climate scientist is whatever a climate scientist says it is.
 
  • #79
Proton Soup said:
i keep seeing this term passed around: "climate science". what i don't see is ABET accreditation of "climate science" as a curriculum. when i go to google for assistance and search for accreditation "climate science", i see a lot of message board posters referring to "accredited climate scientists", but this seems to be synonymous with "people i agree with".

my impression, until convinced otherwise, is that "climate science" has no standards, rigor, or discipline. a climate scientist is whatever a climate scientist says it is.

It's a wide multidiciplinary activity. Which means that for any given paper, a minority of so-call climate scientists can understand one another.

So you promted me to research the current IPCC "participants". (There's a loaded word. They are not members. They are downrated from this status.) I won't call them climate scientists, just yet. These individuals are selected by UN member nations. What criteria, if any does the UN impose on these individuals for participation? Over the years, I have found none. In the past, these individuals have ranged from diplomates to economists to scientists. I believe the majority have typically been scientists. The current hord numbers about 2000.

http://www.ipccfacts.org/participants.html"
 
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  • #81
Proton Soup said:
i guess it's just a coincidence that their linked documents are missing since http://epw.senate.gov/public/index....cord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6" is out

The article also seems to indicate that some of the former patsies were not happy being used.

I haven't yet found a list of IPPC members in any recent year, but I found this short PDF link which is purported to be a list of contributing authors to the 2005 IPCC "National Greenhouse Gas Inventories Guidlines.

Just as amazingly, the academic credentials of the authors are missing. Based upon their affiliations, it looks far more like a list of government, industry, and foundation burocrates than scientists.

http://www.ipcc-nggip.iges.or.jp/meeting/pdfiles/Sydney_Par_20051217.pdf"

But when all is said, IPP signatories are window dressing to add bulk to a report, and give it appearance of credibility. In the past the final authority as to report content has been the UN facilitator. If he fails to convince the delegates to the desired consensus, he is not bound to follow it. This was written into the rules at one time, ~1996.
 
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  • #82
Phrak.
I am sure i agree with you, for an amateur at least ,to find information on how the ipcc works and it contributors is difficult, this organisation is not in any way transparent, may be the warmers can tell why this is so.

Edit.
Is there anyone here that can take us through the review process, from initial draft to final draft, and who had input?
 
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  • #83
wolram said:
Edit.
Is there anyone here that can take us through the review process, from initial draft to final draft, and who had input?
Here is the report that was hidden from the Public by the IPCC. The IPCC was forced to release it after a Freedom of Imformation lawsuit. This is the draft were the IPCC cherrypicked what they wished to use for the final report to the public.
Please link to the IPCC page here that was provided. http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/7794905?n=2&imagesize=1200&jp2Res=.25

Seriously you should read this. When ever someone said the data could be wrong, that previous records had been ignored, etc... The were told that sorry, can't be included, not enough space. But when someone says Great job! They are included with a note: Thanks!

Issue citing scientific issues and concerns:
This is a concise but highly informative overview of the meteorological and
oceanographic aspects of climate change. The major shortcoming is that it almost
completely ignores biospheric aspects of climate change - there is only one brief mention
(page 1-23 lines 37-38, as if this were a new and esoteric aspect of the issue. However,
there is a rich history of research in this field, much of it from the International
Geosphere-Biosphere Programme but also from elsewhere. There is a section on the
cryosphere, but the biosphere is at least as important as the cryosphere, both as a source offeedbacks and drivers of climate change and also as an indicator of climate change.
While biogeochemical processes obviously have their own chapter for the first time, I
strongly feel that in Chapter 1 there should also be a section on a historical overview of
biospheric topics of equal prominance to the cryosphere section.
[Richard Betts]

IPCC response:
Noted. Space restrictions were severe and prevent such detailed treatments. We chose to present some areas in more depth rather than to cover more areas more shallowly.
Oh, as in Data cherry picking

Positive blurb with no science:
Good and self-contained overview of history of climate change science. Congratulations!
[Manola Brunet]

IPCC response:
Noted. Thanks

And again scientific concerns about the validity of data and accuracy of assumptions
I am glad that the historical overview clearly recognises the past en also very present problems with unphysical corrections necessary to obtain a realistic climate state in state of the art models i.e. section 1.5.9 page 22 line 42 to page 23 line 38 on flux adjustments and tuning of radiative parameters. The inclusion of a whole section (1.5.8 page 21 line 8 and further) on cloud modelling and climate sensitivity and the large uncertainties in that area is also a very much welcomed element.

Some worry remains however concerning the discrepant statements that climate is a large system that comprises of many nonlinear dynamical subsystems that are coupled by many feedbacks which makes it hard to test hypothesis in an “experiment like” fashion, while on the other hand it seems to implicitly be assumed that models provide correct results and prognoses of climate are indeed possible despite serious uncertainties about magnitude and sometimes sign of mechanisms.[Florens De Wit]

IPCC reject reason, with no science to back it up:
Noted. Compliments appreciated, but
we reject the assertion that “it seems to implicitly be assumed that models provide correct results.”

baseless compliment with no science:
I found this chapter to be a nice summary of the history and the present day understanding of global warming issues, and thus, I have just a few minor suggestions.
[Michael Alexander Alexander]

IPCC response:
Noted. Thanks

This goes on and on.
 
  • #84
Evo, I just don't see the connection between your annotations to the quotes and the actual quotes themselves.

The first complaint was about "including a section on a historical overview of biospheric topics". It had nothing to do with any data, or the cherrypicking thereof.

On the third quote you say it was rejected with "no science to back it up". What? How do you back up an admission that your models need not provide correct results with "science"? Or were they supposed to point to all the page numbers where they did not speak of this implicit assumption (not that that would be backing it up with "science" either)? I thought you would be happy to read such an admission. Apparently not.
 
  • #85
Gokul43201 said:
Evo, I just don't see the connection between your annotations to the quotes and the actual quotes themselves.

The first complaint was about "including a section on a historical overview of biospheric topics". It had nothing to do with any data, or the cherrypicking thereof.
Scientist's concern said:
The major shortcoming is that it almost
completely ignores biospheric aspects of climate change - there is only one brief mention
(page 1-23 lines 37-38, as if this were a new and esoteric aspect of the issue
. However,
there is a rich history of research in this field, much of it from the International
Geosphere-Biosphere Programme but also from elsewhere. There is a section on the
cryosphere, but the biosphere is at least as important as the cryosphere, both as a source offeedbacks and drivers of climate change and also as an indicator of climate change.
While biogeochemical processes obviously have their own chapter for the first time, I
strongly feel that in Chapter 1 there should also be a section on a historical overview of
biospheric topics of equal prominance to the cryosphere section.
Do you prefer "picking and choosing what you will and will not incude so the end data meets your criteria" instead of "cherry picking"?

Gokul said:
]On the third quote you say it was rejected with "no science to back it up". What? How do you back up an admission that your models need not provide correct results with "science"? Or were they supposed to point to all the page numbers where they did not speak of this implicit assumption (not that that would be backing it up with "science" either)? I thought you would be happy to read such an admission. Apparently not.
Scientist's concern said:
Some worry remains however concerning the discrepant statements that climate is a large system that comprises of many nonlinear dynamical subsystems that are coupled by many feedbacks which makes it hard to test hypothesis in an “experiment like” fashion, while on the other hand it seems to implicitly be assumed that models provide correct results and prognoses of climate are indeed possible despite serious uncertainties about magnitude and sometimes sign of mechanisms
IPCC reply.
IPCC said:
we reject the assertion that “it seems to implicitly be assumed that models provide correct results.”
They gave no reason for the rejection. It does not meet their goals, so rejected without any substantiation of why.
 
  • #86
Evo said:
Do you prefer "picking and choosing what you will and will not incude so the end data meets your criteria" instead of "cherry picking"?
They devoted a whole chapter to it! What they were cherrypicking was what to highlight in the introduction and what not to, probably because they know a lot of people won't get past the introduction (or if they do, they'll head straight to the conclusions). There is no data analysis in the introduction, and hence no scope to cherrypick data.

IPCC reply. They gave no reason for the rejection. It does not meet their goals, so rejected without any substantiation of why.
If you tell me I make an assumption of so-and-so in my paper, and I've made no such assumption, what substantiation should I give you that I have not made this assumption? And what does not meet which specific goals?

If you tell me that I failed to make a necessary assumption, I could at least point you to the part where I did include that assumption, if I want to refute your assertion. But if you tell me that I have made an assumption that was illegitimate, then you should at least point out to me where this assumption or its direct consequence appears in the document. What am I supposed to say? "Nowhere on page 1 is this assumption made. Nowhere on page 2 ..."

But in any event, even for the converse case you can only refute the assertion by pointing to a counterexample, you can't really refute it with science. It's a simple question of "did I make an assumption or not".
 
  • #87
Evo said:
Scientist's concern said:
The major shortcoming is that it almost
completely ignores biospheric aspects of climate change - there is only one brief mention
(page 1-23 lines 37-38, as if this were a new and esoteric aspect of the issue. However,
there is a rich history of research in this field, much of it from the International
Geosphere-Biosphere Programme but also from elsewhere. There is a section on the
cryosphere, but the biosphere is at least as important as the cryosphere, both as a source offeedbacks and drivers of climate change and also as an indicator of climate change.
While biogeochemical processes obviously have their own chapter for the first time, I
strongly feel that in Chapter 1 there should also be a section on a historical overview of
biospheric topics of equal prominance to the cryosphere section.

They were complaining about the history of it not being included in Chapter 1, not that it wasn't taken into consideration in general.

Edit:

Go to http://hcl.harvard.edu/collections/ipcc/ for the comments on each chapter. Note that the one you (Evo) linked to, are the comments on the first order draft of chapter 1 only. Also note that the title of chapter 7 is "Couplings Between Changes in the Climate System and Biogeochemistry". Sure sounds like they were "picking and choosing" not to include the data you're referring to.

Edit 2:

You have to scroll down at the link I provided, to the section titled "Browse the Collection". From there you can follow the links to the comments on the first and second drafts of each chapter.
 
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  • #88
Read the whole thing and decide for yourself.

Thursday, 10 July 2008
By Tom Harris and John McLean

It’s an assertion repeated by politicians and climate campaigners the world over: “2500 scientists of the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) agree that humans are causing a climate crisis.”

But it’s not true. And, for the first time ever, the public can now see the extent to which they have been misled. As lies go, it’s a whopper. Here’s the real situation.

Like the three IPCC “assessment reports” before it, the Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) released during 2007 (upon which the UN climate conference in Bali was based) includes the reports of the IPCC’s three working groups.

Working Group I (WG I) is assigned to report on the extent and possible causes of past climate change as well as future “projections”. Its report is titled “The Physical Science Basis”.

The reports from working groups II and III are titled “Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability” and “Mitigation of Climate Change” respectively, and since these are based on the results of WG I, it is crucially important that the WG I report stands up to close scrutiny.

There is, of course serious debate among scientists about the actual technical content of the roughly 1000-page WG I report, especially its politically motivated Summary for Policymakers which is often the only part read by politicians and non-scientists. The technical content can be difficult for non-scientists to follow and so most people simply assume that if large numbers of scientists agree, they must be right.

Consensus never proves the truth of a scientific claim, but is somehow widely believed to do so for the IPCC reports, so we need to ask how many scientists really did agree with the most important IPCC conclusion, namely that humans are causing significant climate change - in other words the key parts of WG I?

The numbers of scientist reviewers involved in WG I is actually less than a quarter of the whole, a little more than 600 in total. The other 1900 reviewers assessed the other working group reports. They had nothing to say about the causes of climate change or its future trajectory. Still, 600 “scientific expert reviewers” sounds pretty impressive. After all, they submitted their comments to the IPCC editors who assure us that “all substantive government and expert review comments received appropriate consideration”. And since these experts reviewers are all listed in Annex III of the report, they must have endorsed it, right?

Wrong.

For the first time ever, the UN has released on the Web the comments of reviewers who assessed the drafts of the WG I report and the IPCC editors’ responses. This release was almost certainly a result of intense pressure applied by “hockey-stick” co-debunker Steve McIntyre of Toronto and his allies. Unlike the other IPCC working groups, WG I is based in the US and McIntyre had used the robust Freedom of Information legislation to request certain details when the full comments were released.

An examination of reviewers’ comments on the last draft of the WG I report before final report assembly (i.e. the “Second Order Revision” or SOR) completely debunks the illusion of hundreds of experts diligently poring over all the chapters of the report and providing extensive feedback to the editing teams. Here’s the reality.

A total of 308 reviewers commented on the SOR, but only 32 reviewers commented on more than three chapters and only five reviewers commented on all 11 chapters of the report. Only about half the reviewers commented on more than one chapter. It is logical that reviewers would generally limit their comments to their areas of expertise but it’s a far cry from the idea of thousands of scientists agreeing to anything.

Compounding this is the fact that IPCC editors could, and often did, ignore reviewers’ comments. Some editor responses were banal and others showed inconsistencies with other comments. Reviewers had to justify their requested changes but the responding editors appear to have been under no such obligation. Reviewers were sometimes flatly told they were wrong but no reasons or reliable references were provided.

In other cases reviewers tried to dilute the certainty being expressed and they often provided supporting evidence, but their comments were often flatly rejected. Some comments were rejected on the basis of a lack of space - an incredible assertion in such an important document.

The attitude of the editors seemed to be that simple corrections were accepted, requests for improved clarity tolerated but the assertions and interpretations that appear in the text were to be defended against any challenge.

An example of rampant misrepresentation of IPCC reports is the frequent assertion that “hundreds of IPCC scientists” are known to support the following statement, arguably the most important of the WG I report, namely “Greenhouse gas forcing has very likely caused most of the observed global warming over the last 50 years”.

In total, only 62 scientists reviewed the chapter in which this statement appears, the critical chapter 9, “Understanding and Attributing Climate Change”. Of the comments received from the 62 reviewers of this critical chapter, almost 60 per cent of them were rejected by IPCC editors. And of the 62 expert reviewers of this chapter, 55 had serious vested interest, leaving only seven expert reviewers who appear impartial.

Two of these seven were contacted by NRSP for the purposes of this article - Dr Vincent Gray of New Zealand and Dr Ross McKitrick of the University of Guelph, Canada. Concerning the “Greenhouse gas forcing …” statement above, Professor McKitrick explained “A categorical summary statement like this is not supported by the evidence in the IPCC WG I report. Evidence shown in the report suggests that other factors play a major role in climate change, and the specific effects expected from greenhouse gases have not been observed.”

Dr Gray labeled the WG I statement as “Typical IPCC doubletalk” asserting “The text of the IPCC report shows that this is decided by a guess from persons with a conflict of interest, not from a tested model”.

Determining the level of support expressed by reviewers’ comments is subjective but a slightly generous evaluation indicates that just five reviewers endorsed the crucial ninth chapter. Four had vested interests and the other made only a single comment for the entire 11-chapter report. The claim that 2500 independent scientist reviewers agreed with this, the most important statement of the UN climate reports released this year, or any other statement in the UN climate reports, is nonsense.

“The IPCC owe it to the world to explain who among their expert reviewers actually agree with their conclusions and who don’t,” says Natural Resources Stewardship Project Chair climatologist Dr Timothy Ball. “Otherwise, their credibility, and the public’s trust of science in general, will be even further eroded.”

That the IPCC have let this deception continue for so long is a disgrace. Secretary General Ban Kai-Moon must instruct the UN climate body to either completely revise their operating procedures, welcoming dissenting input from scientist reviewers and indicating if reviewers have vested interests, or close the agency down completely.

Until then, their conclusions, and any reached at the Bali conference based on IPCC conclusions, should be ignored entirely as politically skewed and dishonest.

Tom Harris is an Ottawa-based mechanical engineer and Executive Director of the International Climate Science Coalition.

John McLean is climate data analyst based in Melbourne, Australia.
 
  • #89
I saw the name Ross McKitrick in that quote and decided not to read it (not now, at least). Ross McKitrick is a nut, not that that means he can not have valid objections to stuff in the IPCC reports, but I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw the 2007 report.

Besides, what I was pointing out was only what appeared to me as a discord between the things you were quoting and what you were saying about them. I don't have any opinion I care to expound on about the overall conduct of the IPCC.
 
  • #90
Gokul43201 said:
I saw the name Ross McKitrick in that quote and decided not to read it (not now, at least). Ross McKitrick is a nut, not that that means he can not have valid objections to stuff in the IPCC reports, but I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw the 2007 report.

Gokul, I can summarize it for you:

"The 2500 scientists who reviewed it, did not each review each draft of every chapter, and some of the recommendations were rejected for various reasons. For these reasons, we shouldn't trust the report."
 

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