Second and Third Generations of Proton and Neutron?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the theoretical existence and properties of second and third generations of protons and neutrons, as derived from the quark model in the Standard Model of particle physics. Participants explore the implications of these hypothetical particles for chemistry and the periodic table, as well as the potential for new research avenues in theoretical and experimental physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that second and third generation protons and neutrons could theoretically exist, with configurations such as ccs and ttb.
  • Others argue that these higher generation particles would be highly unstable and decay into first generation particles almost immediately.
  • There is a mention of the "Island of Stability," suggesting that certain configurations of protons and neutrons might be stable, but this is contested as being separate from the discussion of higher generation particles.
  • Some participants question why top quarks cannot be bound in hadrons, citing their short lifespan preventing hadronization.
  • A participant references a recent discovery of a particle composed of a charming and strange quark that lived longer than expected, raising questions about the stability of such particles.
  • There is a discussion about the relevance of string theory, which suggests the possibility of more generations of matter beyond the three known in the Standard Model.
  • Concerns are raised about the practicality of researching these hypothetical particles, given their extremely short lifetimes and the current focus of high-energy physics experiments.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the significance of the proposed research area, questioning the lack of existing literature on the subject.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the feasibility or significance of second and third generation protons and neutrons. There are competing views regarding their stability, the implications of the "Island of Stability," and the relevance of string theory to the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the speculative nature of the proposed particles, the dependence on theoretical frameworks like the Standard Model and string theory, and the unresolved questions about the lifetimes and detectability of such particles.

  • #31
thanks for all your answers, quantum mechanics and high energy physics is indeed really interesting!

i've just found another article, which reports the initial findings of a nucleus of A=292 and atomic number Z=~122, whose half-life is: t1/2 >= 10^8 y
(just to get an idea what orders of magnitude longer-lived superheavy elements could be...)

http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.3869

so basically some of these new discoveries got me interested in whether it is also possible to extend the periodic table vertically (using higher-generation super-heavy "eka-protons" and "eka-neutrons" as they might be called..) if extension seems more and more plausible horizontally (towards the island of stability)

and I'm just wondering what do you think will be the heaviest particle the LHC could / should find?

and there is also quite a recent discovery of baryon s+s+b

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/presspass/press_releases/Dzero_Omega-sub-b.html

this discovery "brings scientists a step closer to understanding exactly how quarks form matter and to completing the 'periodic table of baryons.' "

and how hard is it to calculate the expected half-live of an undiscovered particle?

what equations do you need to know for that?
 
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  • #32
Petrix said:
thanks for all your answers, quantum mechanics and high energy physics is indeed really interesting!

i've just found another article, which reports the initial findings of a nucleus of A=292 and atomic number Z=~122, whose half-life is: t1/2 >= 10^8 y
(just to get an idea what orders of magnitude longer-lived superheavy elements could be...)

http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.3869

so basically some of these new discoveries got me interested in whether it is also possible to extend the periodic table vertically (using higher-generation super-heavy "eka-protons" and "eka-neutrons" as they might be called..) if extension seems more and more plausible horizontally (towards the island of stability)

and I'm just wondering what do you think will be the heaviest particle the LHC could / should find?

and there is also quite a recent discovery of baryon s+s+b

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/presspass/press_releases/Dzero_Omega-sub-b.html

this discovery "brings scientists a step closer to understanding exactly how quarks form matter and to completing the 'periodic table of baryons.' "

and how hard is it to calculate the expected half-live of an undiscovered particle?

what equations do you need to know for that?

Now I have seen many "articles" arguing for existence of super heavy nucleus, but never seen such in a peer reviewed paper..

now EVERY discovery on finding new properties of hadrons bring scientists closer to an understanding how quarks for matter.. so you should not tell us here how to appreciate new findings in physics. It was a trivial statement of that article...

And if you want to study theoretical hadron physics, you need lots of quantum mechanics, and math and theoretical physics such as quantum field theory and so on. Finally you can start with "Chiral perturbation theory" or "Lattice QCD", once you know the basics.
 
  • #33
tim_lou said:
Indeed, there are tons of different baryons already discovered in the realm of physics. Check out this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_baryons

Or the 2008 Particle Listings of the Particle Data Group, which is about as "official" as things go in particle physics.

Petrix said:
i've just found another article, which reports the initial findings of a nucleus of A=292 and atomic number Z=~122, whose half-life is: t1/2 >= 10^8 y

You need to be careful about new findings posted on arxiv, because they have generally not (yet) been confirmed by other researchers, and have not (yet) gone through peer review. There has apparently been a significant amount of criticism of this finding: Heaviest element claim criticised
 

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